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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Tracking, Autocrossing, Dragstrip, Driving Techniques > AWD vs RWD



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      05-07-2008, 03:16 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by AWD Addict View Post
I don't even like Audi, but it's clear, AWD tips the playing field in its direction on the race track.
oh yes - one of the best races I ever remember watching was Bill Auberlen clobbering the AWD AUdi RS6's with WAY more horsepower and IN THE RAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. in his lowely e46 M3 with RWD.

hahhahahahhaaaa!!!
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      05-07-2008, 04:12 AM   #24
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If I remember from my searchers on this topic a few months back, to install the rear sway bar on a 335i requires you to lower the subframe, which is why the install is so expensive. Or maybe I should restate that lowering the subframe makes the install much easier and seems to be the preferred way by the shops.

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Originally Posted by UdubBadger View Post
this is for an e46 but should be somewhat similar i would imagine.

http://m3.madrussian.net/diy_rear_eibach_sway.shtml

i don't see how this could be a $400+ job
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      05-07-2008, 09:30 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orionredwing View Post
If I remember from my searchers on this topic a few months back, to install the rear sway bar on a 335i requires you to lower the subframe, which is why the install is so expensive. Or maybe I should restate that lowering the subframe makes the install much easier and seems to be the preferred way by the shops.

Agree..the E46 M3 suspension is definitely different from the E90.
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      05-07-2008, 12:13 PM   #26
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ahhh ok, I got ya.

its a shame then.

kudos to BMW for making one of the easiest, least expensive and one of the most fun mods to have... that much more complicated.
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      05-07-2008, 12:43 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
oh yes - one of the best races I ever remember watching was Bill Auberlen clobbering the AWD AUdi RS6's with WAY more horsepower and IN THE RAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. in his lowely e46 M3 with RWD.

hahhahahahhaaaa!!!
Ah..that was because the RS6 weighed a ton...and had to dial back boost. Bill can definitely drive.
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      05-07-2008, 02:08 PM   #28
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The biggest difference at least for me was in the way I approach the turn. In my STI basically was slow in fast out, this was because of the under steer and the ability to use power without loosing traction on the exit of the turn... Now in my E90 335 I have to approach the turn carrying more speed so I don’t have to use a lot of power on the way out avoiding interference from the traction control
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      05-07-2008, 02:30 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by fll335 View Post
The biggest difference at least for me was in the way I approach the turn. In my STI basically was slow in fast out, this was because of the under steer and the ability to use power without loosing traction on the exit of the turn... Now in my E90 335 I have to approach the turn carrying more speed so I donít have to use a lot of power on the way out avoiding interference from the traction control
Did you have the stock suspension alignment on the STi? Because STi stock sucks. You can't get more than -1 degree camber up front and rear is fixed! And that's your understeer problem right there. Most AWD race cars run -3 or more camber up front with wider front than rear tires. Auto-x guys also tune some toe-out up front. After all AWD is similar to FWD and as said here earlier, you usually have more weight up front.

To OP, I'd recommend against changing the rear bar unless you changed your suspension and tires first and even after tuned it still doesn't feel right. You usually gain very little with the bigger rear bar on stock suspension (I don't know about 335xi but doubt bmw engineered it badly).
Because bigger sway bars make your left/right less independent so as you push more on one side, it's going to lift more on the other. In other words, too stiff of a rear bar and your car will have less rear traction.
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      05-07-2008, 03:19 PM   #30
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While a slightly different animal, I took my X3 both to the track and to auto-x events. At CCA auto-x's I frequently placed in the top 3 despite running stock all season tires. On Willow Springs International Raceway I found the xdrive to be amazing!!! The ability to put power down early and keep it down was a huge benefit. I am now a true believer!
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      05-07-2008, 05:50 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoRnj View Post
Did you have the stock suspension alignment on the STi? Because STi stock sucks. You can't get more than -1 degree camber up front and rear is fixed! And that's your understeer problem right there. Most AWD race cars run -3 or more camber up front with wider front than rear tires. Auto-x guys also tune some toe-out up front. After all AWD is similar to FWD and as said here earlier, you usually have more weight up front.

To OP, I'd recommend against changing the rear bar unless you changed your suspension and tires first and even after tuned it still doesn't feel right. You usually gain very little with the bigger rear bar on stock suspension (I don't know about 335xi but doubt bmw engineered it badly).
Because bigger sway bars make your left/right less independent so as you push more on one side, it's going to lift more on the other. In other words, too stiff of a rear bar and your car will have less rear traction.
As for tires, I'm running Michelin PS2's, which are great.
Right now, my car is lowered with springs, but eventually I will get coilovers.

So it's better then to just get for F&R sway bars at the same time?
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      05-07-2008, 08:30 PM   #32
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, I took my X3 both to the track and to auto-x events. At CCA auto-x's I frequently placed in the top 3 despite running stock all season tires. !

top three in your class?????

hmmmm, there were 3 cars in the SAV class!
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      05-07-2008, 09:35 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoRnj View Post
Did you have the stock suspension alignment on the STi? Because STi stock sucks. You can't get more than -1 degree camber up front and rear is fixed! And that's your understeer problem right there. Most AWD race cars run -3 or more camber up front with wider front than rear tires. Auto-x guys also tune some toe-out up front. After all AWD is similar to FWD and as said here earlier, you usually have more weight up front.

To OP, I'd recommend against changing the rear bar unless you changed your suspension and tires first and even after tuned it still doesn't feel right. You usually gain very little with the bigger rear bar on stock suspension (I don't know about 335xi but doubt bmw engineered it badly).
Because bigger sway bars make your left/right less independent so as you push more on one side, it's going to lift more on the other. In other words, too stiff of a rear bar and your car will have less rear traction.
Even with a aggressive alignment, my STI still understeered badly. Getting bars (Cusco 24/22 Didnt want to get whitelines, I need some suspension compliance) and dialing out my rear shocks (KW V3s) helped.
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      05-08-2008, 09:47 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
top three in your class?????

hmmmm, there were 3 cars in the SAV class!


That would be top 3 in the stock 6, 8 and 12 cylinder class. For what it's worth, this is the class in BMW CCA auto-x with the largest number of participants. Had I run in //M Stock, I would have placed 5 out 11 cars. That October 2006 auto-x in the X3, I took 3rd out of 16 cars.
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      05-08-2008, 10:24 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoRnj View Post
Did you have the stock suspension alignment on the STi? Because STi stock sucks. You can't get more than -1 degree camber up front and rear is fixed! And that's your understeer problem right there. Most AWD race cars run -3 or more camber up front with wider front than rear tires. Auto-x guys also tune some toe-out up front. After all AWD is similar to FWD and as said here earlier, you usually have more weight up front.
.
Yes my suspension was completelly stock.
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      05-08-2008, 10:25 AM   #36
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That would be top 3 in the stock 6, 8 and 12 cylinder class. For what it's worth, this is the class in BMW CCA auto-x with the largest number of participants. Had I run in //M Stock, I would have placed 5 out 11 cars. That October 2006 auto-x in the X3, I took 3rd out of 16 cars.
Godd Job!
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