[fdriller9]

Originally Posted by kaishang

Like Camry owners didn't press the brake?

Did you use your head responding? The pedal recall on Toyotas was defect.

Riding on the brakes did nothing to stop the car. It just destroyed the braking system and warped the rotors.

If you replace a battery in our car, don't follow procedure to register it, the it's YOUR fault. It's always recommended to replace with OEM parts. If you choose to replace with an aftermarket battery , it's your responsibility to consult your dealer on which to get. At this point they would mention battery registration.....or should.

If they didn't mention registration, maybe you have a case.....not really though because it's stated in your owner's manual.


Fail....

[kaishang]

Originally Posted by *********

Did you use your head responding? The pedal recall on Toyotas was defect.

Riding on the brakes did nothing to stop the car. It just destroyed the braking system and warped the rotors.

If you replace a battery in our car, don't follow procedure to register it, the it's YOUR fault. It's always recommended to replace with OEM parts. If you choose to replace with an aftermarket battery , it's your responsibility to consult your dealer on which to get. At this point they would mention battery registration.....or should.

If they didn't mention registration, maybe you have a case.....not really though because it's stated in your owner's manual.


Fail....

Not so.

BMW, like all manufacturers of any product, have an obligation to provide a safe product. When courts looks at what is safe, they look at what a reasonable person would do in the circumstances which lead to the indicent. BMW can write whatever they want in the manual but it does not absolve them from their legal obligation to provide a product which is safe for any REASONABLE person to use.

The average reasonable person does not check their manual before replacing a car battery because it is an everyday item. If BMW chooses to fit a non-standard battery to their cars - different to every other car on the market, BMW better be pretty sure that the only consequence is the car fails to start, not the car blows up like it has in this case.

A court would also take into account that a dead battery can happen anywhere including away from a BMW dealer and a reasonable owner may call up Batteries-R-Us or similar third party supplier who do replace the battery and may have no knowledge of special BMW batteries or registration requirements. Replacing the battery with a "whatever-battery" would be what a reasonable person would do in the circumstances, because whatever-batteries work fine in all other cars and a reasonable person would assume they should also work in a BMW.

It's just as well almost all manufactures follow this principle instead of your idea of manual-writing their way out of all liability, otherwise people would be getting killed or injured all over the place just because they did not read and remember every page of the manual. A lot of people aren't dead because the world and its consumer laws do not work the way you seem to think they do.

Now OP seems like an normal intelligent guy - what a court would call a reasonable person even. So there are probably a few thousand like him who have also fitted non-BMW batteries to their BMW and their BMW hasn't blown up, so in this case it could well be a defective battery unrelated to anything to do with BMW. But you can be sure if BMWs start blowing up due to non-BMW batteries then BMW are getting sued and BMW will be paying out.

[HighlandPete]

It was mentioned a few posts back that education is going to be needed.

One thought from this side of the pond. You don't get the stop-start technology do you? The 'in your face' bit, reminding us we are into a new era. You do get battery recuperation, don't you, as an ED feature? Over here we are getting used to the idea that energy management is now in a different era, batteries are now a key part of that integrated system. So a correct spec' and coded battery component, is not a big deal, almost expected by those following the technology advances.

Perhaps the US needs to see and be educated to where this technology is headed, hence the first steps in precise battery monitoring, in current cars.

HighlandPete

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by kaishang

BMW, like all manufacturers of any product, have an obligation to provide a safe product. When courts looks at what is safe, they look at what a reasonable person would do in the circumstances which lead to the indicent. BMW can write whatever they want in the manual but it does not absolve them from their legal obligation to provide a product which is safe for any REASONABLE person to use.

I'm not trying to start further debate here, but aren't you guys the ones that started all these over complex written instructions, for virtually every move you make. Certainly the perception many of us over here have. Please tell me I'm wrong.

Why assumptions are being made for a battery, rather than read the manual, or talk with those in the know (the BMW representative garages) I can't fathom. Doesn't fit the 'over cautious' image I sense the US now has to most things.

Perhaps BMW simply need another label on the battery and/or terminal area spelling it out more clearly.

Perhaps we ought to write BMW NA and suggest this, before they are sued by reasonable users making expensive mistakes.


HighlandPete

[fdriller9]

Originally Posted by kaishang

Not so.

BMW, like all manufacturers of any product, have an obligation to provide a safe product. When courts looks at what is safe, they look at what a reasonable person would do in the circumstances which lead to the indicent. BMW can write whatever they want in the manual but it does not absolve them from their legal obligation to provide a product which is safe for any REASONABLE person to use.

The average reasonable person does not check their manual before replacing a car battery because it is an everyday item. If BMW chooses to fit a non-standard battery to their cars - different to every other car on the market, BMW better be pretty sure that the only consequence is the car fails to start, not the car blows up like it has in this case.

A court would also take into account that a dead battery can happen anywhere including away from a BMW dealer and a reasonable owner may call up Batteries-R-Us or similar third party supplier who do replace the battery and may have no knowledge of special BMW batteries or registration requirements. Replacing the battery with a "whatever-battery" would be what a reasonable person would do in the circumstances, because whatever-batteries work fine in all other cars and a reasonable person would assume they should also work in a BMW.

It's just as well almost all manufactures follow this principle instead of your idea of manual-writing their way out of all liability, otherwise people would be getting killed or injured all over the place just because they did not read and remember every page of the manual. A lot of people aren't dead because the world and its consumer laws do not work the way you seem to think they do.

Now OP seems like an normal intelligent guy - what a court would call a reasonable person even. So there are probably a few thousand like him who have also fitted non-BMW batteries to their BMW and their BMW hasn't blown up, so in this case it could well be a defective battery unrelated to anything to do with BMW. But you can be sure if BMWs start blowing up due to non-BMW batteries then BMW are getting sued and BMW will be paying out.

Are common people certified BMW techs? I didn't think so.

You work on your car at your own risk....

It's like modding your car.....you put meth in it and it explodes it's BMW's fault?

And how are BMWs batteries not normal? If they were so special then you would HAVE to get oem....which is not the case.

It's registration that is necessary. I agree it's not common and is a nuisance but we are not certified to work on BMWs. BMW techs get trained for a reason.....to properly maintain BMWs and uphold safety standards.

You lose all that when you modifiy it yourself or choose not to follow the procedure stated by BMW. Is it widely known about registration? No but again it's the owner's fault for ASSUMING.

[kaishang]

Originally Posted by *********

Are common people certified BMW techs? I didn't think so.

You work on your car at your own risk....

How are certified BMW techs relavant? Mobile battery replacement services are clearly operating within consumer law, including laws prohibiting manufactures mandating dealer-only servicing, yet the mobile battery tech will not be BMW certified.

And how simple does it need to be: if BMW make a product which blows up (which may or may not be the cause in this case) because a specific maintenance procedure is needed which is different to the procedure on all other vehicles which a reasonable person would perform, then having it blow up as a consequence is not good enough. They get sued.

Something catching fire or blowing up as a result of simple user error is not acceptable to anyone.

[fdriller9]

Originally Posted by kaishang

How are certified BMW techs relavant? Mobile battery replacement services are clearly operating within consumer law, including laws prohibiting manufactures mandating dealer-only servicing, yet the mobile battery tech will not be BMW certified.

And how simple does it need to be: if BMW make a product which blows up (which may or may not be the cause in this case) because a specific maintenance procedure is needed which is different to the procedure on all other vehicles which a reasonable person would perform, then having it blow up as a consequence is not good enough. They get sued.

Something catching fire or blowing up as a result of simple user error is not acceptable to anyone.

Because they are the ones TRAINED AND INFORMED about working on our cars.

BMW doesn't design their cars so a consumer can work on it themselves. They train and educate techs to work on them. They get paid to do it professionally.

Let's say you change your pads. You install them incorrectly and you kill yourself in an accident because you can't stop.

Can you sue BMW? Sure go ahead. We know how that will go.....

When you replace you battery and don't register it. It is installed INCORRECTLY. BMW has no liability!

It's the owner's fault for assuming and thinking they can work on the car themselves without proper training and know how.

EDIT: BMW doesn't require a battery to be registered only at the dealer. You can us a GT1 or autologic platform. Expensive and not many shops have them but most of the time, probably all of the time, these operators are CERTIFIED BMW TECHS/CENTERS.

[Chriztofor]

When working on cars it is not a reasonable person standard, it is a reasonable mechanic standard. A reasonable mechanic would read a bentley manual or other manual before fixing any car.

[ShastaMan]

Why do some keep insisting on information being in the owner's manual when it is not in there. There is nothing, I REPEAT, nothing in the 09 335i owner's manual about the necessity to register the battery after replacement. The only safety issue mentioned is the proper disposal of the old battery.

[fdriller9]

Originally Posted by ShastaMan

Why do some keep insisting on information being in the owner's manual when it is not in there. There is nothing, I REPEAT, nothing in the 09 335i owner's manual about the necessity to register the battery after replacement. The only safety issue mentioned is the proper disposal of the old battery.

My bad. I guess I am used to seeing it and "thought" it was actually there.

Regardless, it's not about being stated in the manual that's important, it's the fact that some people thing that if something goes wrong because they changed something in their car without proper training they can sue the manufacturer for their lack of knowledge on the matter and assumption that they can use old knowledge and apply it to new platforms.

It's like people complaining they can't figure out how to use a product when the instruction manual is provided. And when they misuse it they try to sue the manufacturer and get shut down because of their ignorance.

Your dealer is your instruction manual!!

[kaishang]

Originally Posted by *********

Let's say you change your pads. You install them incorrectly and you kill yourself in an accident because you can't stop.

Can you sue BMW? Sure go ahead. We know how that will go.....

When you replace you battery and don't register it. It is installed INCORRECTLY. BMW has no liability!

That's not an analogy. In your example the brake pads are not installed incorrectly by some chump, but there is nothing special about the brake pads themselves.

Here with the battery a competent technician/mechanic may correctly install a battery of the correct capacity (but wrong type if you delve into the BMW manual) and the car can blow up.

Competent and reasonable mechanic, although not specifically BMW trained, performing standard procedure + BMW on fire = lawsuit for BMW.

This legal system is why when people normal competent and reasonable people make the sort of mistakes normal competent and reasonable people make, nothing much particularly bad happens. Cars catching fire is an unacceptable consequence.

Originally Posted by *********

My bad. I guess I am used to seeing it and "thought" it was actually there.

Regardless, it's not about being stated in the manual that's important, it's the fact that some people thing that if something goes wrong because they changed something in their car without proper training they can sue the manufacturer for their lack of knowledge on the matter and assumption that they can use old knowledge and apply it to new standards.

See above. "Something goes wrong" is quite different from part of your car catching fire.

Do you have fuses at your house? Why? It's your fault if you plug too many appliances in and the wiring catches fire according to this logic. Something in OP's car has EXPLODED. Things need to be made safe so that if people make mistakes, which happen, the consequence is not that it blows up.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by kaishang

How are certified BMW techs relavant? Mobile battery replacement services are clearly operating within consumer law, including laws prohibiting manufactures mandating dealer-only servicing, yet the mobile battery tech will not be BMW certified.

Surely the mobile guys will be reading the newsletters and bulletins put out by the battery companies. If not, then they are cowboys.

I've such a bulletin in front of me, from one such non OEM battery company, clearly laying down the concerns and procedures for "Installation of Batteries without a BEM code in Audis".

I'd suggest that even within consumer law those doing the job have responsibilities to understand exactly what they are doing.

HighlandPete

[fdriller9]

Originally Posted by kaishang

That's not an analogy. In your example the brake pads are not installed incorrectly by some chump, but there is nothing special about the brake pads themselves.

That's exactly what I'm saying. The person made a mistake in not installing them correctly.....it's his fault.

Originally Posted by kaishang

Here with the battery a competent technician/mechanic may correctly install a battery of the correct capacity (but wrong type if you delve into the BMW manual) and the car can blow up.

Competent and reasonable mechanic, although not specifically BMW trained, performing standard procedure + BMW on fire = lawsuit for BMW.

Does BMW not recommend to take your car into service at one of their service centers or a certified BMW garage?

It's the owners choice to go to an indy.....if they aren't certified. Tough. That's the owner's choice.

Originally Posted by kaishang

This legal system is why when people normal competent and reasonable people make the sort of mistakes normal competent and reasonable people make, nothing much particularly bad happens. Cars catching fire is an unacceptable consequence.

The car didn't catch fire. A few burn marks and a melted trunk liner cover.

The explosive charge is a safety system on the positive terminal to short the battery in the event of an accident. It's suppose to do what it did. The car sensed a dangerous situation, and it acted accordingly.

Why was this "dangerous situation" sensed? Because the rest of the car wasn't properly in sync with the battery.....because it wasn't registered.

Why wasn't the battery registered? Because the owner wasn't aware or didn't think it was necessary.

It's not BMWs job to educate its consumers on their cars. They train their techs to work on their cars.


Again it's a personal choice to not take your car to a person who is trained to proper maintain our cars.

[kaishang]

Originally Posted by *********

That's exactly what I'm saying. The person made a mistake in not installing them correctly.....it's his fault.

Does BMW not recommend to take your car into service at one of their service centers or a certified BMW garage?

It's the owners choice to go to an indy.....if they aren't certified. Tough. That's the owner's choice.

Again it's a personal choice to not take your car to a person who is trained to proper maintain our cars.

Yes and as I was saying the consequence of your personal choice to perform non-standard maintenance is that your product ceases to function in a harmless-to-everyone way, then you get to pay for a repair or pay for the correct parts. The unaccptable consequence is that part of it catches fire and leaves the owner walking around the middle of a high-speed road as has happened here.

See previous comment about fuses at your house: do you have them? The only reason they are there is to prevent hazardous consequences arising from people not maintaining their house or from using too many appliances and instead make the consequence a safe one, i.e. a blown fuse instead of burning wiring. If people did everything correctly, every time, they would not be required.

[nishnish]

Originally Posted by ShastaMan

Why do some keep insisting on information being in the owner's manual when it is not in there. There is nothing, I REPEAT, nothing in the 09 335i owner's manual about the necessity to register the battery after replacement. The only safety issue mentioned is the proper disposal of the old battery.

It's in my electronic copy....see attachment (granted, it doesn't say your car will blow up if you don't register, but only that it might be inconvenient)

[Chriztofor]

Originally Posted by *********

Again it's a personal choice to not take your car to a person who is trained to proper maintain our cars.

Basically sums it up.

[fdriller9]

Originally Posted by kaishang

Yes and as I was saying the consequence of your personal choice to perform non-standard maintenance is that your product ceases to function in a harmless-to-everyone way, then you get to pay for a repair or pay for the correct parts. The unaccptable consequence is that part of it catches fire and leaves the owner walking around the middle of a high-speed road as has happened here.

See previous comment about fuses at your house: do you have them? The only reason they are there is to prevent hazardous consequences arising from people not maintaining their house or from using too many appliances and instead make the consequence a safe one, i.e. a blown fuse instead of burning wiring. If people did everything correctly, every time, they would not be required.

First of all. Get it straight that there was NEVER a fire. An explosion can occur without anything else catching fire.....which is what happened.

It' a US standard. Of course I have them.

Would you rather BMW take the explosive charge out, you get in accident, your gas tank ruptures and your battery which sits right above and to the rear of the tank comes in contact to one of the many 12v lines running though the car and kill you?

I didn't think so.

[Chriztofor]

Originally Posted by kaishang

Yes and as I was saying the consequence of your personal choice to perform non-standard maintenance is that your product ceases to function in a harmless-to-everyone way, then you get to pay for a repair or pay for the correct parts. The unaccptable consequence is that part of it catches fire and leaves the owner walking around the middle of a high-speed road as has happened here.

Totally wrong assumption. Exaggerated example: If I install the brakes wrong then no one should get killed, the car should stop instantly, and it should flash where I performed the improper repair.

It just doesn't work like that.

By the way, no one was killed, and the cable exploded. It did what it was designed to do.

[ShastaMan]

Originally Posted by nishnish

It's in my electronic copy....see attachment (granted, it doesn't say your car will blow up if you don't register, but only that it might be inconvenient)

That is a very nice picture of your 2010 manual, but that still does not apply to the 2009 model. Show me a copy of the 2009 owner's manual for the 335i that says this. I thought so, you can't!!

[Chriztofor]

^ It doesn't have to say it in any owner's manual. That is not the purpose of the owner's manual. It will say it in a repair manual.

[kaishang]

Originally Posted by Chriztofor

Totally wrong assumption. Exaggerated example: If I install the brakes wrong then no one should get killed, the car should stop instantly, and it should flash where I performed the improper repair.

It just doesn't work like that.

By the way, no one was killed, and the cable exploded. It did what it was designed to do.

The battery was not installed wrong. The battery was installed correctly by a competent person. Furthermore battery replacement is a common user maintenance item. The battery was not registered and it seems that the owners manual, depending on model year either (i) does not mention any requirement to register the battery or (ii) makes only a reference to 'convenience' and a suggestion to register the battery.

So OP does not register the battery. The battery or part of it explodes and leaves OP walking in 50mph traffic. Do you see a problem here? If you don't, be glad you don't work in my industry because if you are lucky you would only get fired.

[ShastaMan]

Originally Posted by Chriztofor

^ It doesn't have to say it in any owner's manual. That is not the purpose of the owner's manual. It will say it in a repair manual.

That's totally BS!! Everything else is in the owner's manual about how to properly take care of your car. How many owner's will go out & buy a repair manual just to change a battery? Totally ridiculous!!