[QUiKSR20]

Hello All,

After tons of research, reading, more reading and asking questions I finally started my build.. First want to thank the many that have helped along the way countless times by either answering questions or posting online for me to learn.. ( Technic / Taibanl / Superjay / Kaigoss69 ) whoever I have forgot I apologize , I didnt know anything about upgrading the audio in an E90 and now I have a pretty good idea.

With that being said I couldn't afford the time or cash to do everything at one time so I started in stages. I was looking to improved my stereo a decent amount without getting too too crazy. After reading a bunch of threads it appears the JBL MS8 w/ a Technic harness was a great starting point..

Ill try to post prices and where I bought stuff to help anyone else looking to replicate.

Stage 1

• JBL MS8
• Technic Harness
• Technic Center Channel Wiring
• BMW Center Grill ( non nav ) PN 51 45 7 123 749
• BMW Screws x3 PN 07 14 9 172 104
• DLS 424 Center

Under $650, Bought a pair of DLS 424's and sold one which cuts the cost in half ( perfect match to my R4s going in the doors later ) Bought JBL MS8 from JBL direct on eBay factory refurb'd w/full warranty $399.





Other tools / supplies : Nylon Prybar set ( amazon.com ) , gaffer tape, T20 socket, coat hanger, velcro, 3M Shrink spade connectors

First thing I started was running the wire for the center channel, I highly recommend a set of nylon pry tools so you dont scratch your interior or break any clips.. Less than $15 on amazon.com



Remove the stock grill & then remove the 4 T20 Torx screws securing the mount.

Center Mount + DLS 424 ( 2 ears cut off ) 3 OEM BMW Screws Part# above.


When laying the speaker in there was gaps under the two mounting ears, so I put two foam cut outs to fill the gaps.





Wasn't too happy how the washer pushed on the plastic, but in later pictures
when its back in the car you will see it does not touch the surround.

Now comes the fun ( running the center channel wire ) from top of dash to passenger kick panel area, Ive read tons of threads to minimize on surprises so I was prepared for a pain in the ass. Most threads said to remove cup holder trim, plus the long center trim etc etc.. This was completely un-needed.

Remove lower trim ( few T20 screws ) grab a coathanger ( put electrical tape on end so you scratch / damage anything ) and guide towards the right.. You will need to poke around but took less than 5 minutes.



For wiring the center channel I used a pre-fabbed wire w/pins from Technic $10 I think with factory pins so it plugs right into the OEM harness just like the factory... This guys harness's are a MUST HAVE! A++ ( wrapped end with a straw and taped up )



All taped up so no damage occurs passing to rear.



After guiding the center channel wires from the top center to the glovebox area to the crossover and from the xover to the rear seat area I buttoned up the front.

DLS 424 Mounted ( now you can see the washer doesnt touch the surround ).



When I went to put the grill over the 424 it didnt wanna go on at first, The tweeter was slightly too tall... Heads up for anyone doing a 424 center, The tweeter will hit and put a dent in your grill.

I removed this small chunk of frame from the center grill :



Now everything fits perfect!!



Time to wire the x-over there is a perfect spot to the right of the fuse box that will fit this perfect and out of the way. I used 3M Heat Shrink spade connectors I got off ebay on the wires and they worked great! Sealed right around the wires perfect. The X-over is just secured with velcro nice tight and out of the way.





Now I started running the MS8 display wire + the center channel wire down towards the kick panel and towards the trunk, Its been said you dont have to remove the front and rear floor trim pieces but I removed them I wanted to make sure the wires were nice and tucked in.

After your past the kick panel just twist and turn the fuse panel cover back in and your done up front.

MS8 Display Hooked up


Taped the two wires with some gaffers tape to the stock wiring and passed into the trunk, The whole interior can be buttoned up now as you only have the trunk left.



Once you get your center wire in the trunk route it to the drivers side and pull the amp harness out of the factory amp. Theres a tab to depress and then a clasp that slides... After you get that out you will see some empty slots. You want Pins 39 & 40 ( 39 is + 40 is - ) Slide them in and now your wired up just like the factory center channel cars.



Now I was getting ready to mount the MS8 it appears alot of people removed the carpet tray under the carpet to gain the little extra clearance needed for the MS8 to fit underneath. I didnt want to remove it so I decided to just trace the MS8, make a template and cut it out.



MS8 Fit perfect now and the trunk carpet would lay almost 100% flush
The MS8 will be secured with Velcro



On to the wiring of Technics harness



HMMMM... There is no way this harness will go under the side panels with out making a huge bulge.. I searched and searched and everyones pictures looked perfect but when I tried there was no way.

After speaking with Technic he said to pull back the loom and lay flat ( common sense ) but from looking online nobody mentioned and you cant tell in the pics.

I put some more tape over the metal edge so the wires wouldnt have any chance of tearing and layed them down flat w/tape.



Harness is now secured and panel is flat



Wired up the whole MS8 and laid down the OEM Floor board. (redid loom in tech-flex & ran RCA's for future amp).
"Wasnt satisfied with the sloppy wires in the first attempt"





Perfect!!! Stage one of the install complete now on to the tuning. And where I will need some help ( trust ive done tons of reading ) I think I have read every MS8 thread on here.

Setting up the MS8 The Real Fun

Technic sent me a baseline and informed me everyones taste is diff which is true and that I would have to adjust on my own from here.

Base Settings :

• Skip input setup
• Sub = None/your trunk sub via MS-8 CH8 RCA output
• Front = 2-way, 40Hz subsonic filter at 18dB, 150Hz at 12dB Hi/Lo
• Center = 1-way, 150Hz at 18dB
• Sides = 1-way, 150Hz at 18dB
• Calibration volume = -25dB
• Main volume after calibration = -6dB

Do I just configure my drivers seat or do I have to do all 4 seating locations, As its setup now it sounds WORSE than stock and if your in the rear you hear all kinda sounds going in an out like the logic 7 is toying with it in a bad way and the center channel is way louder than any other speaker ( so it seems ).

Now im 100% sure its not tuned optimally by me, im new and will continue to fine tune and I know everyone has there own idea on what is ideal but I do know one thing..

There is a bunch of people on here that have added an MS8 + Center channel in an E90 and have gotten it to sound better than stock. I know this may not be my " Optimal Sound " but if its better than the stock sound I would love to pick your brain for the settings cause as of now my setup sounds absolutely worse than stock and I have confidence with help I can fix this.

Thanks for reading my long thread guys I hope some have enjoyed the pics and info and I hope this will help others, I learned a ton reading before the install and even more as I did it for myself.

This thread will evolve as I proceed to my stage II

Stage II of my setup :

( new front door speakers ) DLS R4's to match my 424 Center

and Stage III will be a VP sub enclosure w/ an ID10D4v3 + a JL 500/3 Amp
100w RMS to the underseats / 300RMS to the sub.

[mob17]

Great write up and congrats!

I dont think anyone has been happy straight away with an MS-8. I spent weeks trying to get the right tune. But it will be worth it.

I'd try changing the xovers to 200hz @ 24db/octave for all your speakers, and a 40hz 24db subsonic.

Also have a play around with calibration volume, it makes a huge difference. Even 2db can affect the sound quality. Try lower and higher volumes and note your impressions. Im thinking because your speakers are very sensitive, try lower, so -30db. I have found -20db works for me but yours will most certainly be different as you have a different set up.

Good luck and hope you enjoy tweaking!

[Technic]

When the MS-8 plays a sound thru each speaker (front right, front left and so on) to test its speaker output configuration just make sure that each sound corresponds to each speaker as set below:

- CH1 = Left front
- CH2 = Right front
- CH3 = Left rear
- CH4 = Right rear
- CH5 = Left woofer
- CH6 = Right woofer
- CH7 = Center
- CH8 = Not used

For the front 2-way configuration, Front Left Hi would be CH1, Front Right Hi would be CH2, Front Left Lo would be CH5 and Front Right Lo would be CH6. You may have a configuration problem there.

Check also the the front 2-way crossover settings:

- the first filter setting is a subsonic filter, use 40Hz to 50Hz at 18 or 24dB if using the OEM woofers.
- the second setting is the Hi/Lo crossover point, use 150Hz to 200Hz at 12 or 18dB

The problem with the front 2-way setting is that the MS-8 may have difficulties localizing the underseat woofers during calibration so the bass/midbass could be mediocre, especially when the MS-8 powers the woofers directly.

To fix that without adding a separate amp for the woofers or a sub then set the OEM woofers as 2 Subs in the MS-8. The subsonic would be 50Hz at 24dB, and the low pass could be 150Hz or 200Hz, whatever sounds good to you. Then the fronts filter will be set automatically once they are set at 1-way. The bass will be "restored" to the OEM woofers this way.

Then try calibration volumes between -20dB and -25dB. That should do it.

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by Technic

When the MS-8 plays a sound thru each speaker (front right, front left and so on) to test its speaker output configuration just make sure that each sound corresponds to each speaker as set below:



For the front 2-way configuration, Front Left Hi would be CH1, Front Right Hi would be CH2, Front Left Lo would be CH5 and Front Right Lo would be CH6. You may have a configuration problem there.

Check also the the front 2-way crossover settings:

- the first filter setting is a subsonic filter, use 40Hz to 50Hz at 18 or 24dB if using the OEM woofers.
- the second setting is the Hi/Lo crossover point, use 150Hz to 200Hz at 12 or 18dB

The problem with the front 2-way setting is that the MS-8 may have difficulties localizing the underseat woofers during calibration so the bass/midbass could be mediocre, especially when the MS-8 powers the woofers directly.

To fix that without adding a separate amp for the woofers or a sub then set the OEM woofers as 2 Subs in the MS-8. The subsonic would be 50Hz at 24dB, and the low pass could be 150Hz or 200Hz, whatever sounds good to you. Then the fronts filter will be set automatically once they are set at 1-way. The bass will be "restored" to the OEM woofers this way.

Then try calibration volumes between -20dB and -25dB. That should do it.

Thanks Technic! I am at work now but cant wait to try once I get home. I know it will only improve once I get it setup better.

Do I have to calibrate for all seats or just my drivers seat? or just driver/passenger?
I only have people usually in the front.

• Also is it normal for the rear to have almost no sound coming out of the speakers?
  .
• I think your setup said rears = NONE and my rears are now configured as sides ( assuming side surround for Logic 7 )

[nato-main-man-5am]

Technic knows what he's talking about. Another thing to try are the settings that one of the JBL folks recommend for our cars:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=659

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by Nathan_h

Technic knows what he's talking about. Another thing to try are the settings that one of the JBL folks recommend for our cars:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=659

Thanks, Just looked over that post and made some changes. Its progressing and over time will get better, I got some midbass back but it still sounds severely lacking compared to my friends logic 7 setup which im hoping to surpass ( technically speaking atleast ).

Current Settings -

Calibrated at -23db then left at -8db ( -6 starts to sound harsh when turned up )

• Sub = None
• Front = 2way
• 30hz subsonic /12db
• Front Hi/Lo set @ 200hz 24db
• Center 200hz 24db
• Side 100hz 24db

Ive toyed with the sub gain but it sounds fine in the middle. So far my impressions are :

• Much improved from initial settings
• Still sounds a little hollow / not crisp
• Sounds like its 85% center channel ( is this normal )

Is it normal to have the rear speakers work totally diff now that Logic 7 is doing the processing? Had a rear passenger
say theres no sound back here and its going in an out or is that because I only set up my drivers seating positon and
not all 4.

Ill keep at it noting my settings each time hopefully I will get it to sound better. Im pretty confident with help
from everyone that has MS8/E90 audio knowledge + trial and error on my part I will get this to sound great.

Thanks again all def thinking of adding a sub sooner than later now.

[Technic]

Originally Posted by QUiKSR20

Thanks, Just looked over that post and made some changes. Its progressing and over time will get better, I got some midbass back but it still sounds severely lacking compared to my friends logic 7 setup which im hoping to surpass ( technically speaking atleast ).

Current Settings -

Calibrated at -23db then left at -8db ( -6 starts to sound harsh when turned up )

• Sub = None
• Front = 2way
• 30hz subsonic /12db
• Front Hi/Lo set @ 200hz 24db
• Center 200hz 24db
• Side 100hz 24db

Ive toyed with the sub gain but it sounds fine in the middle. So far my impressions are :

• Much improved from initial settings
• Still sounds a little hollow / not crisp
• Sounds like its 85% center channel ( is this normal )

Is it normal to have the rear speakers work totally diff now that Logic 7 is doing the processing? Had a rear passenger
say theres no sound back here and its going in an out or is that because I only set up my drivers seating positon and
not all 4.

Ill keep at it noting my settings each time hopefully I will get it to sound better. Im pretty confident with help
from everyone that has MS8/E90 audio knowledge + trial and error on my part I will get this to sound great.

Thanks again all def thinking of adding a sub sooner than later now.

Raise the subsonic to 40Hz at 24dB, or 50Hz at 18dB. Try calibrating in the 30dB range... there could be some clipping going on at -23dB if you hear harsh sound at -6dB general volume. There should be no harshness all the way to 0dB.

Skip input setup. Do not use the CD included with the MS-8, it is not required. Make sure that the MS-8 RCA inputs correspond to the OEM HU outputs: MS-8 CH1 input should be the OEM HU left output, CH2 should be the right output. The RCA with the red band is always RIGHT.

The rears will not sound in full because the Logic7 only sends what it processed as surround sounds. If you defeat the Logic7 then you will hear in full at the rear speakers.

I would try the woofers as subs from 50Hz to 200Hz as well.

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by Technic

Raise the subsonic to 40Hz at 24dB, or 50Hz at 18dB. Try calibrating in the 30dB range... there could be some clipping going on at -23dB if you hear harsh sound at -6dB general volume. There should be no harshness all the way to 0dB.

Will try this

Originally Posted by Technic

Skip input setup. Do not use the CD included with the MS-8, it is not required. Make sure that the MS-8 RCA inputs correspond to the OEM HU outputs: MS-8 CH1 input should be the OEM HU left output, CH2 should be the right output. The RCA with the red band is always RIGHT.

I am skipping per your instructions the channels when doing the test tones are right on point with your email.

- CH1 = Left front
- CH2 = Right front
- CH3 = Left woofer
- CH4 = Right woofer
- CH5 = Left rear
- CH6 = Right rear
- CH7 = Center
- CH8 = Not used/your trunk sub via MS-8 CH8 RCA output

Originally Posted by Technic

The rears will not sound in full because the Logic7 only sends what it processed as surround sounds. If you defeat the Logic7 then you will hear in full at the rear speakers.

Gotcha ( same as in a home theater ) didnt put 2 and 2 together Pretty sure most are leaving logic 7 on for a more focuse'd front... Im assuming its like home theater where your center channel is your main channel it just sounds like its 75% center channel and 25% front vs like 50/50 again probaly by design.

Originally Posted by Technic

I would try the woofers as subs from 50Hz to 200Hz as well.

Thanks Technic,
I will try all the above a little later as its 95 degrees outside right now so in the car with the windows up is a little rough.

Im learining more and more as I go so I apreciate the help!

[taibanl]

How is your latest work? I looked over the thread and agree with the last few posts. I think you initially were trying to push the OEM underseats too low.

It is normal for the center to seem quite strong with Logic7 initially, you will learn to love it, of course since you haven't installed the R4's in the doors yet the center is going to be the most efficient driver in the car. However, the MS-8 should account for that.

I'm still getting my own system dialed in, finding better results at the -26 to -28dB range (amped) I think -20 to -25 should work for you but try all the way to -30 if it helps. If you notice "scratchy" distortion when turned up, you probably calibrated at too LOW a volume.

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by taibanl

How is your latest work? I looked over the thread and agree with the last few posts. I think you initially were trying to push the OEM underseats too low.

It is normal for the center to seem quite strong with Logic7 initially, you will learn to love it, of course since you haven't installed the R4's in the doors yet the center is going to be the most efficient driver in the car. However, the MS-8 should account for that.

I'm still getting my own system dialed in, finding better results at the -26 to -28dB range (amped) I think -20 to -25 should work for you but try all the way to -30 if it helps. If you notice "scratchy" distortion when turned up, you probably calibrated at too LOW a volume.

Thanks for the reply, The latest sounds decent but still need to tweak a little more..

Currently the R4's are not installed but will be soon with a 5 month old at home its been busy but I hope to have some time tom to play with some more configurations.

Im sure in time it will sound great and I will get more use to the center channel.

The one thing im noticing now is when the bass hits its not as smooth sounding for lack of a better word ( hard to explain ).
Instead of a nice smooth boom boom its more of a battt batt batt sound.. Not really distortion but like its at a hz it doesnt like I think its at 200hz/24

I cant wait to get it perfect, Each time im noting what I change so its only a matter of time.

R4's will go in soon and towards the end of the summer a VP box / amp.

[bmw325i]

The problem is that you have the stock underseats powered by the ms8 I wasn't to happy with my setup until I amped the underseats and the front stage.

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by bmw325i

The problem is that you have the stock underseats powered by the ms8 I wasn't to happy with my setup until I amped the underseats and the front stage.

Agreed more power would be better but I should be able to get it to sound atleast as good as it did with the stock amp.

Everyone who went the MS8 route said it was a big improvement in itself and that was big factor in my choice.

Right now its like I spent a few hundred to sound worse, but im pretty confident after more trial and error I should get it to improve greatly.

PS,
Do you guys only calibrate the drivers seat or driver and passenger? There usually 2 of us in my car ( me and the gf ).

[QUiKSR20]

Still testing and making tons of progress, Def still room to improve but its getting drastically better.

I hope this ends up working good I primarily listen to techno and another thread I heard someone say "if you listen to techno maybe the logic 7 isnt a good thing"

Current Settings :

• Sub = None
• Front = 2-way, 35Hz subsonic filter at 18dB, 180Hz at 24dB Hi/Lo
• Center = 1-way, 180Hz at 24dB
• Sides = 1-way, 180Hz at 24dB
• Calibration volume = -23dB
• Main volume after calibration = -8dB

If I go higher than -8 on MS8 volume it sounds a little distorted so may try recalibrating at - 21/22 and see if it allows me to get cleaner output at -6 or so MS8 Vol

Also may try the subsonic at 40/18 but so far Im getting good mid bass with mild distortion at higher levels but will continue to tune and post my results.

Anyone feel free to chime in or share any advice... Def making progress

[taibanl]

Originally Posted by QUiKSR20

Agreed more power would be better but I should be able to get it to sound atleast as good as it did with the stock amp.

Agreed on both counts

PS,
Do you guys only calibrate the drivers seat or driver and passenger? There usually 2 of us in my car ( me and the gf )

Calibrate driver only until you get it where you want it, then calibrate it for everyone else

Originally Posted by QUiKSR20

Still testing and making tons of progress, Def still room to improve but its getting drastically better.

I hope this ends up working good I primarily listen to techno and another thread I heard someone say "if you listen to techno maybe the logic 7 isnt a good thing"
some of the best sounding stuff in my car is elecronicish stuff. i dont normally listen to it otherwise.
Current Settings :

• Sub = None
• Front = 2-way, 35Hz subsonic filter at 18dBstill think this is pushing it, but your experince and testing should prevail over my opinion, 180Hz at 24dB Hi/Lo I figure 200hz won IASCA and even with better than stock drivers, I have found it works better than <200hz
• Center = 1-way, 180Hz at 24dB
• Sides = 1-way, 180Hz at 24dB
• Calibration volume = -23dB
• Main volume after calibration = -8dB

If I go higher than -8 on MS8 volume it sounds a little distorted so may try recalibrating at - 21/22 and see if it allows me to get cleaner output at -6 or so MS8 Vol
what kind of distortion sound?...what speakers?
Also may try the subsonic at 40/18 but so far Im getting good mid bass with mild distortion at higher levels but will continue to tune and post my results.
I might work down from 50 as opposed to up.

Anyone feel free to chime in or share any advice... Def making progress

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by taibanl

Calibrate driver only until you get it where you want it, then calibrate it for everyone else

Ok cool I will try again @ 200hz/24 for all interior speakers.. I havent messed with them much at all.

All the tuning changes have been to calibration volume and the subsonic filter.. ( these are the only things that felt off ). Well at first.

Ill report my results for all speakers at 200/24 ( front / sides / center )

As for the Subsonic 35/18 was a little much its at 40/18 now and not bad ill try 50hz as well.. Do you think 18 is a good slope or should I try 40/24 as well?

The distortion isnt really distortion I may be using the wrong term, maybe its clipping.. Like when the volume gets to the upper levels and it just sounds like its not as clear. Like the volume is louder but like a screaming vs crisp loudness.

I think this is because of the wrong calibration volume I need to try a few more times. I mostly notice in the tweeters ( front/center ).

Maybe calibrated too low or too loud not sure.

Currently Im at

* Front = 2-way,
* 40Hz subsonic filter at 18dB, 180Hz at 24dB Hi/Lo
* Center = 1-way, 180Hz at 24dB
* Sides = 1-way, 180Hz at 24dB
* Calibration volume = -28dB
* Main volume after calibration = -8dB

[QUiKSR20]

After going over some things in side convos with Taibanl we figured out I was calibrating too low.

So what I was calling distortion I think was just clipping, You would turn the volume up and once you hit a
certain level the next turn of the knob would goe up another 2 octives and get harsh like when the volumes up too loud..

THIS IS Gone now, Calibrated @21db and I can turn up loud and clear. ( notice slight hiss though with volume all the way down, minor.)

Its not only louder now it sounds solid all the way till max with the MS8 on -6db I think when I was calibrating at 180/24 and 35/18 the only
reason I was getting away with it was because it was being calibrated too low. Now I can feel the door speakers working and sounding good.

With the Center being a little louder than the doors I found a simple solution, Just lower the center level in the MS8 2 clicks now its balanced
across nice (until I add the R4's then I will put back to default).

Latest & Best settings ( so far )

* Front = 2-way,
* 50Hz subsonic/24dB, 200Hz at 24dB Hi/Lo
* Center = 1-way, 200Hz at 24dB
* Sides = 1-way, 200Hz at 24dB
* Calibration volume = -21dB
* Main volume after calibration = -6dB

Almost perfect, Would like to try @ maybe 20db and 22db calibration volume and compare as well.

The underseats are not as bassy as with the stock amp but they tend to hit nice ( mid bass ). Im assuming a sub would compliment it nice with current config.

Getting there slowly ( eying up a sub amp + sub box )!

[Kid Red]

Awesome thread, subrscribed, can't wait to reference it when I'm ready to begin my upgrade.

Not to thread jack, but it's relevant and I'm curious what first upgrade is better for sound with bass improvements? Assuming both are close in budget, which is most impactful?

SWS8s and amp + stock L7
MS8 + center + stock L7

[bmw325i]

I'd do the sws8's and amp before adding the ms8. The ms8 is not very powerful and the underseats are 4 ohm so they will get alot less power than stock. With just the underseats amped it should actually sound very good.

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by Kid Red

Awesome thread, subrscribed, can't wait to reference it when I'm ready to begin my upgrade.

Thanks brotha,

I think an AMP + New underseats would give more boom if thats all you plan on changing.
I did the MS8 route first to get my baseline taken care of, Now I can build off that configuration with more amps etc.

Originally Posted by bmw325i

I'd do the sws8's and amp before adding the ms8. The ms8 is not very powerful and the underseats are 4 ohm so they will get alot less power than stock. With just the underseats amped it should actually sound very good.

Standby for Stage 2 coming soon... Amped underseats + Sub..

I never knew the underseats were 4Ω so that explains maybe why although the whole car sounds better off the MS8 the underseats
sound way less powerfull than they did off the stock amp.

[mob17]

Originally Posted by QUiKSR20

I never knew the underseats were 4 ohm so that explains maybe why although the whole car sounds better off the MS8 the underseats
sound way less powerfull than they did off the stock amp.

Bmw325 meant the L7 woofers. Hifi woofers are 2 ohm

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by mob17

Bmw325 meant the L7 woofers. Hifi woofers are 2 ohm

Ahh gotcha, Well then I gotta keep at my tuning.. Was just in my friends car ( stock hi-fi ) his BASS from underseats sounds better deeper and cleaner than mine with the MS8...
Mine hits like a nice mid which will compliment a trunk sub nice. But as of now with no Trunk sub his sound way better off stock amp.

I have my door / center / rears sounding great @ 200hz/24db Slope its the Calibratation volume and Subsonic Filter I have to work on.

Currently Im calibrated @ 21db w/50Hz subsonic/24dB no distortion like at lower Hz ie: 40 but not much bass either.

[bmw325i]

Yeah I did mean the logic 7 underseats I should have quoted.