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      02-13-2016, 05:54 AM   #1
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Auto box feels like it is snatching gears and over revving?

So this has started this week. Fluid and filter changed at 70k miles. Now well above 90k.
N52B25 with 6AT

Sometimes it feels like the car has down shifted without my say so and is hanging in gear. Then I have to let off the gas completely and it goes to the appropriate gear. The best way I can sum it up is that D mode feels like S mode!

Any input appreciated ?
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      02-13-2016, 06:52 AM   #2
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Update firmware and reset adaptation.
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      02-13-2016, 09:08 AM   #3
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I'd be looking at 2 things without going to the extent of say having the issue diagnosed as there are 2 possible route causes of the complaint you've highlighted, one is as stated by litany (though inspect the underside before resetting anything)the other is to re look at the gearbox looking from the underside of be re visiting the sump its self and the sleeve. If there is no leakage present and the sumps dry it might be worth re visiting the fluid in the gearbox, if you've done their service and X amounts gone in there is an possibility that there could be a certain shortfall re fluid amount taken by the gearbox.

We spend a fair bit more time maybe than you'd think ensuring as much fluid goes in as possible we've had cars in where the fluids and sump have been changed yet the gearbox though dry doesn't quite feel right when we've to visited the gearbox we've managed to get upto a further litre in after the service has been done. Usually when the service takes place the fluid will be filled until the gearbox starts to welt fluid out and some places will say right that's it plug in wipe off. The key seems to be as we do run the car up (temperature is key here) with someone in he car you run the car through the gears while underneath a second individual is with pump in hand ready to add more fluid again when ready koenwfouoss added as the first fill has had time to circulate the fluids added again until the box spits the second batch of fluid out. Again after this we will run bribe car up always observing the fluid quantity we've used then there maybe a call for a quick third attempt(this will 100% depend on how the fill up procedure has gone previously) then again you'd run the car up check for leaks then the car after covers are re fitted is bought down.

ZF supply 7 litres of fluid in their kits and that for a reason on average you'll get anywhere between 5.8 and 6.3 litres of fluid in these boxes there will be differences between one box and and other fact.

After this we re set gearbox box adaptations and now engine adaptations and allow the 2 to re acquaint themselves with new fluid possibly less drag and between them the car will find its way. Usually after say 30-50 miles you generally get some idea how it'll drive going forward.
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      02-13-2016, 10:50 AM   #4
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Absolutely what Steve said here. I did my research before doing my box myself after having similar symptoms to you. Mine had been leaking for a while. I really took my time and managed to get about 6 and a third of the seven litre bottles of the ZF fluid in to mine but it took patience. That smoothed changes out straight away. Got around to doing adaptations a few weeks later and the gearbox felt like new. Hope that helps
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      02-13-2016, 11:57 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old grey steve
I'd be looking at 2 things without going to the extent of say having the issue diagnosed as there are 2 possible route causes of the complaint you've highlighted, one is as stated by litany (though inspect the underside before resetting anything)the other is to re look at the gearbox looking from the underside of be re visiting the sump its self and the sleeve. If there is no leakage present and the sumps dry it might be worth re visiting the fluid in the gearbox, if you've done their service and X amounts gone in there is an possibility that there could be a certain shortfall re fluid amount taken by the gearbox.

We spend a fair bit more time maybe than you'd think ensuring as much fluid goes in as possible we've had cars in where the fluids and sump have been changed yet the gearbox though dry doesn't quite feel right when we've to visited the gearbox we've managed to get upto a further litre in after the service has been done. Usually when the service takes place the fluid will be filled until the gearbox starts to welt fluid out and some places will say right that's it plug in wipe off. The key seems to be as we do run the car up (temperature is key here) with someone in he car you run the car through the gears while underneath a second individual is with pump in hand ready to add more fluid again when ready koenwfouoss added as the first fill has had time to circulate the fluids added again until the box spits the second batch of fluid out. Again after this we will run bribe car up always observing the fluid quantity we've used then there maybe a call for a quick third attempt(this will 100% depend on how the fill up procedure has gone previously) then again you'd run the car up check for leaks then the car after covers are re fitted is bought down.

ZF supply 7 litres of fluid in their kits and that for a reason on average you'll get anywhere between 5.8 and 6.3 litres of fluid in these boxes there will be differences between one box and and other fact.

After this we re set gearbox box adaptations and now engine adaptations and allow the 2 to re acquaint themselves with new fluid possibly less drag and between them the car will find its way. Usually after say 30-50 miles you generally get some idea how it'll drive going forward.
Please PM with a quote for fluid service
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      02-13-2016, 03:07 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broken_Gearbox View Post
Please PM with a quote for fluid service
Not a problem, but I'd also want to see if there are any gearbox issues recorded to be safe (seen one that had fluid and sump replaced only to have a pre exsisting fault) but chances are what's been highlighted above is the area that will need addressing.
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      02-18-2016, 09:30 PM   #7
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Hey gents

Jumping on this convo, some great advise for the transmission oil change. I'm due to do mine auto box 2009 335i, can one of you be kind enough and point me in the direction where is best to get oil, sump/filter/gasket hoping there is a place to go that supply a kit. Off topic also require final drive oil too.Thankyou
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      02-21-2016, 06:19 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old grey steve View Post
Not a problem, but I'd also want to see if there are any gearbox issues recorded to be safe (seen one that had fluid and sump replaced only to have a pre exsisting fault) but chances are what's been highlighted above is the area that will need addressing.
Steve, just following this thread out of curiosity having come across this discussion a few times.

I had an ex-BMW indy tell me to just leave the gearbox well alone unless I actually started noticing any issues. i.e. don't service it for the sake of it.

He said that a few times, customers have requested a gearbox service anyway and it's made matters worse as the fluid and "gunk" in there is holding the whole thing together. If you drain that away and service the box, you're just opening yourself up to potential issues.

What do you guys recommend to your customers? And if you think a gearbox service is definitely necessary, after how many miles would you say it should be done?
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      02-21-2016, 06:21 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broken_Gearbox View Post
So this has started this week. Fluid and filter changed at 70k miles. Now well above 90k.
N52B25 with 6AT

Sometimes it feels like the car has down shifted without my say so and is hanging in gear. Then I have to let off the gas completely and it goes to the appropriate gear. The best way I can sum it up is that D mode feels like S mode!

Any input appreciated ?
I had the same thing for a while but mine was an issue with the air intake system, it's a horrible feeling! Gear change kept hanging, changes were jerky and mpg went down.

Luckily mine's sorted. Good luck!
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      02-21-2016, 10:51 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raptor_f22 View Post
Steve, just following this thread out of curiosity having come across this discussion a few times.

I had an ex-BMW indy tell me to just leave the gearbox well alone unless I actually started noticing any issues. i.e. don't service it for the sake of it.

He said that a few times, customers have requested a gearbox service anyway and it's made matters worse as the fluid and "gunk" in there is holding the whole thing together. If you drain that away and service the box, you're just opening yourself up to potential issues.

What do you guys recommend to your customers? And if you think a gearbox service is definitely necessary, after how many miles would you say it should be done?
Honest answer. If you look at BMW's take its sealed for life. I don't buy that. We've seen enough cars through our doors with erratic gearbox issues to know the first port of call is to look underneath, when you do you see a leak from either the pan of say the sleeve, both of which are common, as these parts are made of plastic in both cases doesn't bode too well for the life of the car ususally if left unattended for too long the end result is a gearbox that develops an internal issue as the leak as compromised the box internals.

The real shame re all this is although the manufacturer says sealed for life(and they have done so with previous models from the E31's through to say the E39 5 Series's as an example) although the statement stands why can you obtain fluid and filter and sleeve kits from your local BMW parts departments. They know what is going on fact so why continue with the sealed for life statement when it's clear the box cannot meet the statement.

I've actually got a 730d coming into me over a 2 day period, it was booked in for us to look at previously but didn't show, on the phone customer reported an all to common story, my advise was to get the car up to me for a look, thinking that by changing the sump and effectivally carrying out the service all being well and if there were no recorded faults in the car, with the recommended service and resetting adaptations it'll live to fight another day. The customer actually didn't turn up for the appointment i'd arranged, but instead went to his local BMW dealer who confirmed the box was indeed leaking, they carried out a diagnosis and the required visual inspection to confirm the leak, then topped it up to the required level and so I was told billed the customer over £250 for. Customer called me to confirm they'd topped up the fluid and the car now drove OK. But what about the leak. Well they'd not done anything re this as they recommended that with fluid in the gearbox the car should be driven to see if it improved matters but confirmed the leak was present but hopefully adding fluid will help. But the leaks still there, the fluid will once again find the leak and then issues will return, then the penny dropped, the procedure is a sticking plaster over a large wound, for me if you see a leak if the cats got mileage you attend to the problem. And thsts not topping up fluid on s component they can see is leaking.

If you look at ZF who build the gearbox in their blurb its quite clear that a service is recommended at say 100k's (62.000 miles-from memory)but whatever the figure they'll know their boxes better than anyone else and there advise is servicing is key.

Look at Mercedes, gearbox services are built into their service portfolio, like wise VAG Group recommend servicing of their DSG/Auto boxes at specific periods.

So yes 100% recommend a service on these boxes say every 4 years maybe 40K(following Mercedes's protocal)to ensure longtem the boxes stand a chance of keeping up with the demands of everyday driving, post work as we've seen recommend re setting adaptations on the gear box as well as the engine so that the 2 can work together and adjust to new fluid and a more free flowing filter.

As for your indy not recommending a service I can sort of understand where he's coming from, we work with 3 transmission reconditioners all 100% recommend the procedure for longevity, ZF as you know sell the kits for this very purpose so I think to a degree though I can understand your indy's views they are for whatever reason to me a little wide of the mark, the gunk as you say will eventually create the very issues the service is there to prevent .... a failure
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      02-21-2016, 04:11 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old grey steve View Post
Honest answer. If you look at BMW's take its sealed for life. I don't buy that. We've seen enough cars through our doors with erratic gearbox issues to know the first port of call is to look underneath, when you do you see a leak from either the pan of say the sleeve, both of which are common, as these parts are made of plastic in both cases doesn't bode too well for the life of the car ususally if left unattended for too long the end result is a gearbox that develops an internal issue as the leak as compromised the box internals.

The real shame re all this is although the manufacturer says sealed for life(and they have done so with previous models from the E31's through to say the E39 5 Series's as an example) although the statement stands why can you obtain fluid and filter and sleeve kits from your local BMW parts departments. They know what is going on fact so why continue with the sealed for life statement when it's clear the box cannot meet the statement.

I've actually got a 730d coming into me over a 2 day period, it was booked in for us to look at previously but didn't show, on the phone customer reported an all to common story, my advise was to get the car up to me for a look, thinking that by changing the sump and effectivally carrying out the service all being well and if there were no recorded faults in the car, with the recommended service and resetting adaptations it'll live to fight another day. The customer actually didn't turn up for the appointment i'd arranged, but instead went to his local BMW dealer who confirmed the box was indeed leaking, they carried out a diagnosis and the required visual inspection to confirm the leak, then topped it up to the required level and so I was told billed the customer over £250 for. Customer called me to confirm they'd topped up the fluid and the car now drove OK. But what about the leak. Well they'd not done anything re this as they recommended that with fluid in the gearbox the car should be driven to see if it improved matters but confirmed the leak was present but hopefully adding fluid will help. But the leaks still there, the fluid will once again find the leak and then issues will return, then the penny dropped, the procedure is a sticking plaster over a large wound, for me if you see a leak if the cats got mileage you attend to the problem. And thsts not topping up fluid on s component they can see is leaking.

If you look at ZF who build the gearbox in their blurb its quite clear that a service is recommended at say 100k's (62.000 miles-from memory)but whatever the figure they'll know their boxes better than anyone else and there advise is servicing is key.

Look at Mercedes, gearbox services are built into their service portfolio, like wise VAG Group recommend servicing of their DSG/Auto boxes at specific periods.

So yes 100% recommend a service on these boxes say every 4 years maybe 40K(following Mercedes's protocal)to ensure longtem the boxes stand a chance of keeping up with the demands of everyday driving, post work as we've seen recommend re setting adaptations on the gear box as well as the engine so that the 2 can work together and adjust to new fluid and a more free flowing filter.

As for your indy not recommending a service I can sort of understand where he's coming from, we work with 3 transmission reconditioners all 100% recommend the procedure for longevity, ZF as you know sell the kits for this very purpose so I think to a degree though I can understand your indy's views they are for whatever reason to me a little wide of the mark, the gunk as you say will eventually create the very issues the service is there to prevent .... a failure
Steve - please can you PM me with a quote for a 2011 E90 330D - 40K miles - thanks
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      02-21-2016, 04:16 PM   #12
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I also agree with ZF recommendations, and will do a service every 50k miles.
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      02-21-2016, 06:37 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old grey steve View Post
Honest answer. If you look at BMW's take its sealed for life. I don't buy that. We've seen enough cars through our doors with erratic gearbox issues to know the first port of call is to look underneath, when you do you see a leak from either the pan of say the sleeve, both of which are common, as these parts are made of plastic in both cases doesn't bode too well for the life of the car ususally if left unattended for too long the end result is a gearbox that develops an internal issue as the leak as compromised the box internals.

The real shame re all this is although the manufacturer says sealed for life(and they have done so with previous models from the E31's through to say the E39 5 Series's as an example) although the statement stands why can you obtain fluid and filter and sleeve kits from your local BMW parts departments. They know what is going on fact so why continue with the sealed for life statement when it's clear the box cannot meet the statement.

I've actually got a 730d coming into me over a 2 day period, it was booked in for us to look at previously but didn't show, on the phone customer reported an all to common story, my advise was to get the car up to me for a look, thinking that by changing the sump and effectivally carrying out the service all being well and if there were no recorded faults in the car, with the recommended service and resetting adaptations it'll live to fight another day. The customer actually didn't turn up for the appointment i'd arranged, but instead went to his local BMW dealer who confirmed the box was indeed leaking, they carried out a diagnosis and the required visual inspection to confirm the leak, then topped it up to the required level and so I was told billed the customer over £250 for. Customer called me to confirm they'd topped up the fluid and the car now drove OK. But what about the leak. Well they'd not done anything re this as they recommended that with fluid in the gearbox the car should be driven to see if it improved matters but confirmed the leak was present but hopefully adding fluid will help. But the leaks still there, the fluid will once again find the leak and then issues will return, then the penny dropped, the procedure is a sticking plaster over a large wound, for me if you see a leak if the cats got mileage you attend to the problem. And thsts not topping up fluid on s component they can see is leaking.

If you look at ZF who build the gearbox in their blurb its quite clear that a service is recommended at say 100k's (62.000 miles-from memory)but whatever the figure they'll know their boxes better than anyone else and there advise is servicing is key.

Look at Mercedes, gearbox services are built into their service portfolio, like wise VAG Group recommend servicing of their DSG/Auto boxes at specific periods.

So yes 100% recommend a service on these boxes say every 4 years maybe 40K(following Mercedes's protocal)to ensure longtem the boxes stand a chance of keeping up with the demands of everyday driving, post work as we've seen recommend re setting adaptations on the gear box as well as the engine so that the 2 can work together and adjust to new fluid and a more free flowing filter.

As for your indy not recommending a service I can sort of understand where he's coming from, we work with 3 transmission reconditioners all 100% recommend the procedure for longevity, ZF as you know sell the kits for this very purpose so I think to a degree though I can understand your indy's views they are for whatever reason to me a little wide of the mark, the gunk as you say will eventually create the very issues the service is there to prevent .... a failure
As always your knowledge and experience speaks for itself lol my car has done 165k without ever having the g.box serviced I'm sure. I will PM you for a quote at some point no doubt

My wishlist of stuff to do to this car is growing every time I talk to you! Thanks as always for your help!
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      02-22-2016, 08:18 AM   #14
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I will touch base with Steve soon. This month the priority is new tyres as near legal limit and MOT is due.
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