AFR Comparo (Procede/JB4/Cobb)

OpenFlash · 11-16-2011, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Ok,

So now that we have AFR logs from three cars with somewhat similar mods, the following question must be answered:

What is considered a proper AFR for this DI engine across the different rpm ranges? Why?

You will find no agreement in what is the "proper" AFR on any tuned engine, let alone something as unique as the direct injection N54. So there is no sense in turning this into a argument of right vs wrong. This is just data. Sometimes one can look at data without being forced to make conclusions.

Shiv

OpenFlash · 11-16-2011, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

It's very easy to max out trims down low on a race gas map. Of course the fuel pressure mapping (FPMapping variable in the JB4) determines the open loop fueling and fuel trims. The fuel table determines the AFR target or o2_bias. If I were offering advice to whomever did the JB4 run I would suggest they increase the fuel pressure mapping as it looks like they are maxing out the fuel trims on spool up. In one of the newer beta firmwares that system has actually been redesigned and fuel trims added as a loggable parameter. Now if they are running meth they can go 100 all across on the fuel table to run as rich as they want without much worry of maxing out the fuel trims on stock turbos.

Mike

The JB4 car wasn't running a high boost race gas map from what I can tell give the dyno figures.

thebigragu99 · 11-16-2011, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

It's very easy to max out trims down low on a race gas map. Of course the fuel pressure mapping (FPMapping variable in the JB4) determines the open loop fueling and fuel trims. The fuel table determines the AFR target or o2_bias. If I were offering advice to whomever did the JB4 run I would suggest they increase the fuel pressure mapping as it looks like they are maxing out the fuel trims on spool up. In one of the newer beta firmwares that system has actually been redesigned and fuel trims added as a loggable parameter. Now if they are running meth they can go 100 all across on the fuel table to run as rich as they want without much worry of maxing out the fuel trims on stock turbos.

Mike

SO bascially now mike,the new 9/16 firmware on pump gas is richer then this tested???Or should we increase the fpm????

Jeff@TopGearSolutions · 11-16-2011, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vase330

?? Missed that part of the joke. Why do you say this?

It's a play on words.... They are running very rich, in reference to their air fuel ratio.

For others:
I'm not sure why everyone has to make every thread an argument or claim data as worthless or needs to know which is better.

There is no right or wrong answer.... look at the data, conclude whatever you want to conclude and move on.

Sometimes its really not about which tune is better all the time. Maybe they are all good?

Mike@N54Tuning.com · 11-16-2011, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The JB4 car wasn't running a high boost race gas map from what I can tell give the dyno figures.

The JB4 fueling system is identical to the PROcede. Whatever advice you would offer him is probably the same advice I would offer him. First add the fuel trims to the log. If those fuel trims are maxed out increase the open loop fueling until they aren't. Then if a richer AFR target is desired go to that RPM in the fueling table and increase or decrease it as necessary. The next version of the firmware should have auto learning on the open loop mapping active so as an alternative he can just wait for that.

Mike

thebigragu99 · 11-16-2011, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The JB4 fueling system is identical to the PROcede. Whatever advice you would offer him is probably the same advice I would offer him. First add the fuel trims to the log. If those fuel trims are maxed out increase the open loop fueling until they aren't. Then if a richer AFR target is desired go to that RPM in the fueling table and increase or decrease it as necessary. The next version of the firmware should have auto learning on the open loop mapping active so as an alternative he can just wait for that.

Mike

When will the new firmware be released mike??

E3r2E9r · 11-16-2011, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions

It's a play on words.... They are running very rich, in reference to their air fuel ratio.

For others:
I'm not sure why everyone has to make every thread an argument or claim data as worthless or needs to know which is better.

There is no right or wrong answer.... look at the data, conclude whatever you want to conclude and move on.

Sometimes its really not about which tune is better all the time. Maybe they are all good?

Some people argue just to argue. What can ya do.

OpenFlash · 11-16-2011, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The JB4 fueling system is identical to the PROcede. Whatever advice you would offer him is probably the same advice I would offer him. First add the fuel trims to the log. If those fuel trims are maxed out increase the open loop fueling until they aren't. Then if a richer AFR target is desired go to that RPM in the fueling table and increase or decrease it as necessary. The next version of the firmware should have auto learning on the open loop mapping active so as an alternative he can just wait for that.

Mike

Let's not make untrue statements like that.

enrita · 11-16-2011, 04:49 PM

scottp999 · 11-16-2011, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enrita

Bakeme521 · 11-16-2011, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottp999

Quote:

Originally Posted by enrita

vasillalov · 11-16-2011, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

You will find no agreement in what is the "proper" AFR on any tuned engine, let alone something as unique as the direct injection N54. So there is no sense in turning this into a argument of right vs wrong. This is just data. Sometimes one can look at data without being forced to make conclusions.

Shiv

Ok, I can appreciate that.

So what is Vishnu logic and reasoning behind the AFR curve that is produced specifically by Procede piggyback? I am not asking for a comparison with other tunes. This will only exacerbate the "tune wars". Instead, I would like to know what is Vishnu's overall philosophy on N54 AFRs.

thebigragu99 · 11-16-2011, 05:36 PM

Dr. G · 11-16-2011, 05:49 PM

So much bias and clearly a hidden agenda in this post. (well not really that hidden it's pretty clear)

mithiral67 · 11-16-2011, 05:53 PM

Can we have boost levels overlayed on that. I am unsure what conclusions can be drawn from this, but as far as I know boost levels (which will indicate load) are important for understanding good vs. bad afrs

wahoo · 11-16-2011, 05:53 PM

For the amateur - such that I am - it is clear that some run more rich, some intermediate, some lean.

FWIW - none of it means squat to me. I've been waiting for a tuner to give a 'X' solution for 'X' hp without all the namby pamby CELS, codes, limp this or that etc.

For me it is quite simple - max return on investment for a moderate amount of risk. All this bleeding edge shit is worthless. I'd rather play with a muscle car than deal with the shenanigans of this engine.

Brey335i · 11-16-2011, 06:41 PM

1. Without logs for each of the three runs this is going nowhere.

2. COBB Stage 2 doesn't benefit diddly squat from 100 octane.

3. These results should have been done with the same exact car running each tune on pure pump gas.

What was the point of this again? It's just gonna start something

Mike@N54Tuning.com · 11-16-2011, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Let's not make untrue statements like that.

Really? They both use one analog signal to produce an o2 bias and another analog pair to modify the fuel pressure mapping. They both use data from the analog boost and fuel pressure signals along with CAN data such a lambda and fuel trims to determine how to apply the o2 bias and fuel pressure mapping. Remember when you claimed the PROcede had special commands to clear codes from the DME that the BT cable and JB4 didn't? Then it was verified you were using the exact same commands? Is this going to be another one of those awkward moments?

Mike

OpenFlash · 11-16-2011, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Really? They both use one analog signal to produce an o2 bias and another analog pair to modify the fuel pressure mapping. They both use data from the analog boost and fuel pressure signals along with CAN data such a lambda and fuel trims to determine how to apply the o2 bias and fuel pressure mapping. Remember when you claimed the PROcede had special commands to clear codes from the DME that the BT cable and JB4 didn't? Then it was verified you were using the exact same commands? Is this going to be another one of those awkward moments?

Mike

Both a 335 and a Hyundai Tiberon have 6MT transmission and 6 cylinders. But they aren't the same despite having similar "systems". In the world of computers (hardware and software), making blanket statements, like the one you threw in there, is going to mislead people. But maybe that is intentional.

Shiv

Irishace · 11-16-2011, 07:00 PM

Entertainment incoming!

import36 · 11-16-2011, 07:02 PM

Zeph · 11-16-2011, 07:07 PM

Here is my stock dyno, and then my Cobb stage 2+FMIC aggressive dyno. Same dyno and operator, I would say the COBB AFR looks better and doesn't have that oscillation issue down low. Both end up around 12.

I had 95'ish octane for the COBB dyno and was running stock intake for 2 runs, and no intake on 3rd run (red). Stock exhaust too, FBO rest.

11-16-2011, 04:49 PM	#31
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thebigragu99 Banned 45 Rep 828 Posts Drives: 135 tuorbbo Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: nyc iTrader: (1)
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11-16-2011, 05:49 PM	#36
Dr. G Major General 278 Rep 5,062 Posts Drives: Black e92 335i Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Brampton, Ontario iTrader: (32) Garage List e92 BMW 335i [8.84]	So much bias and clearly a hidden agenda in this post. (well not really that hidden it's pretty clear) __________________ JB4 / OSS Angel Eyes / Downpipes / F1-Racewerks FMIC / Custom Meth Kit / BMS DCI / ER Chargepipe / HKS BOV / BMS Meth Elbow / BMW Performance Exhaust / Carbon Fiber Inlay Quad Tips / 19" Miro 111 / Front Aero Lip / M3 Sides / VRS CSL Trunk / Mtech Rear / DD CF Quad Finned Diffuser / LCI Tails / BBK / Smoked Reflectors / F1 Euphoria LED Interior / License LED's / GT 5000k Corners / 5000k HID Fogs / Air Scoops / LED Turn Signals / FK Silverline Coilovers / HPA endlinks / Vibrant Resonators / Osram CBI 5000k D1S
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11-16-2011, 05:53 PM	#37
mithiral67 That guy 117 Rep 5,740 Posts Drives: 2015 Cayman GTS Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Chicago Burbs iTrader: (4) Garage List 2015 Porsche Cayman ... [0.00]	Can we have boost levels overlayed on that. I am unsure what conclusions can be drawn from this, but as far as I know boost levels (which will indicate load) are important for understanding good vs. bad afrs
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11-16-2011, 05:53 PM	#38
wahoo Bangin' my head against the wall 15 Rep 460 Posts Drives: '08 335i Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: atlanta iTrader: (0)	For the amateur - such that I am - it is clear that some run more rich, some intermediate, some lean. FWIW - none of it means squat to me. I've been waiting for a tuner to give a 'X' solution for 'X' hp without all the namby pamby CELS, codes, limp this or that etc. For me it is quite simple - max return on investment for a moderate amount of risk. All this bleeding edge shit is worthless. I'd rather play with a muscle car than deal with the shenanigans of this engine.
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11-16-2011, 06:41 PM	#39
Brey335i Banned 112 Rep 4,771 Posts Drives: e46 ///M3 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Austin, TX iTrader: (11)	1. Without logs for each of the three runs this is going nowhere. 2. COBB Stage 2 doesn't benefit diddly squat from 100 octane. 3. These results should have been done with the same exact car running each tune on pure pump gas. What was the point of this again? It's just gonna start something
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11-16-2011, 07:00 PM	#42
Irishace ElevenPointFive 326 Rep 2,450 Posts Drives: E90 335 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Toronto iTrader: (1)	Entertainment incoming! __________________ 2008 E90 335xi - N54 Daily Driver MHD Stage 2+ ~ CPE DPs ~ BMS Intake ~ AMS FMIC
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11-16-2011, 07:07 PM	#44
Zeph Major 27 Rep 1,410 Posts Drives: 2008 E92 335i 6MT SGM CR/BD Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Southeast USA iTrader: (0)	Here is my stock dyno, and then my Cobb stage 2+FMIC aggressive dyno. Same dyno and operator, I would say the COBB AFR looks better and doesn't have that oscillation issue down low. Both end up around 12. I had 95'ish octane for the COBB dyno and was running stock intake for 2 runs, and no intake on 3rd run (red). Stock exhaust too, FBO rest.
	Appreciate 0 Quote