[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

If vanos works anything like Vtec would, I remember Fuel and ignitoin were hard to keep smooth between those transitions when tuning. They could eventually be tuned almost out completely, but at the end of the day, getting it close was good enough (on the conservative side of fuel and ignition of course).

Again, assuming it opens up the intake valves rather quickly at once, I could see a reason there might the ever so slightest burp at that time.

This is my opinion as well. Us 91oct guys sometimes see this knock-induced timing dip (regardless of transmission type). Can't say I've seen it while running methanol though. As it would be on race gas, DME timing should be almost flat at 9-10 deg throughout the midrange. If you are seeing dips, knock is occurring. The biggest problem I see on meth cars that don't have timing control has to do with boost onset. For that second or so it takes for meth to start flowing, the car is running too aggressively which initial triggers knock retard that the car needs a couple of seconds to recover from. Don't think that is the case here but it's worth mentioning.

Shiv

[themyst]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Incorrect. I reserve the right to invite myself over for dinner for every Procede sold. Ask around and check the fine print.

Sure, you can eat kimchi and kalbi with me and the wife. If you can stomach it

[TMR]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Incorrect. I reserve the right to invite myself over for dinner for every Procede sold. Ask around and check the fine print.

He means that... Really he does.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Incorrect. I reserve the right to invite myself over for dinner for every Procede sold. Ask around and check the fine print.

I read the print, i feel like its missing important information.
Do you put out on the first date? This is vital.

[M3 Eater]

Shiv...nothing personal really. i know you have a ton of knowledge and would prob help me if you could take my JB3 and give me a procede. To be honest, I can't fathom spending more money on a tune. Yes I am considering upgrading my JB3 but not sure if I am going to wait for the pro board or not. that may be $100?? If i could get out of my tune what I put into it maybe I could swing the other $250 but My timing is close enough and prob some of the best logs posted by JB3 AT anywhere. I am proud of that but I am wondering... Is it better to let my DME learn to deal with the additional octane when it is not needed by removing fuel from the DI or to taper off the meth and keep the DI fuel maxed out.
Thats the question here...not if Procede is better than JB3... we know its better at dealing with meth injection. I don't know why BMS doesn't admit that this is a good thing and copy it. Pride does funny things to a company especially when they have been quite successfull in recent future. I really don't know how to bring it up to Terry but most of his fastest running customers have switched tunes.
I would love for him to realize that there are not many of his clients that use meth left. The fact that I am posting timing logs that look this solid should make me his best friend but I am just an annoying newbie to him that emails too often.... and thats ok.

Shiv...Ill make dinner.... you can bring a V4 and we can do the install after we eat....I would say that I would gladly post how much better my timing looks with your tune if you could donate one but I think every one knows already......

as for posting in the other fourm, I knew this was going to be a switch to procede kind of discussion and even though Terry reads e90...I didnt want to shit in my own back yard.

[cn555ic]

You buy Ar pipes and spend more on them then a tune which will solve all your inquiries when there are cheaper dps out on the market! Either way hope The next generation Jb tunes gives you a solution

[themyst]

$945 - $200 for being a JB3 owner = $745 for a PnP rev2.

Sell your JB3 for $250-$300 if pinout, or $400ish for a PnP, net cost anywhere from $345-495.

Sure didn't cost me much to switch or other former JB owners. Still boggles to mind as to how people will bitch over a few hundred dollars on a tune on a $30k+ dollar car.

[M3 Eater]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

This is my opinion as well. Us 91oct guys sometimes see this knock-induced timing dip (regardless of transmission type). Can't say I've seen it while running methanol though. As it would be on race gas, DME timing should be almost flat at 9-10 deg throughout the midrange. If you are seeing dips, knock is occurring. The biggest problem I see on meth cars that don't have timing control has to do with boost onset. For that second or so it takes for meth to start flowing, the car is running too aggressively which initial triggers knock retard that the car needs a couple of seconds to recover from. Don't think that is the case here but it's worth mentioning.

Shiv

wouldn't this be during the onset of boost then??? obviously boost is engaged fully in 2nd gear as the timing is up above 15 in the initial log. After the shift its up and then drops around 4200 rpms. I know you have to take my word for it as my logs lack the required info but the meth is flowing, The timing is above 10 creating this desire for the DME to pull it back. I am starting meth flow at about 6.5 psi so from there to say 14psi where we see cars with no meth or race gas start to pull timing the meth system has a minute to get the octane flowing. I don't have a flow meter but I do have a light in the car that gets progressively brighter as boost increases. I have a good idea of the duty cycle during a run and based on my nozzle size I have more than enough meth.... too much meth really for map 8.

I am thinking that the opposite is happening, that boost is not high enough for the amount of meth I am running. Jb3 has an aggressive taper on boost and quickly 17 psi drop to 14. For the second that I am at 17 everything is peachy and as the taper kicks in suddenly I am running enough octane for 19 psi but the tune is only pushing say 15. I wish my logs overlapped so I could coorelate this info but for now I cannot.

Anyone that has ran 100% meth and race gas together may have seen the car misfire the whole run. Too much octane is a possiblity and I am digging to find the symptoms of such an event. Shiv, have you ever seen a car retard the timing when it was too high for a given RPM?

[M3 Eater]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

You buy Ar pipes and spend more on them then a tune which will solve all your inquiries when there are cheaper dps out on the market! Either way hope The next generation Jb tunes gives you a solution

I bought some B&B pipes that didn't fit...it was a freakin nightmare! It wasn't my intention to buy the best, most expensive pipes and for the record I didn't pay full price for them either. Andrew felt bad that Band B screwed me and let me do a write up on his pipes in exchange for a reduced cost. At the time there was a lot going on between B and B and Ar designs and Andrew made it easy for me to make the change, so I did. My tune cost more than my pipes did for sure. I promise I have conviced a few folks trying to save $ to go ahead and invest in AR pipes.

Did someone say that I was having a problem with my timing?? I say it looks as good as any procede logs I have seen, not taking anything away from the procede tune and its ability to manage meth and timing.

Let's go back and read the thread shall we?

1)My timing is amazing. 2) I spray so much meth that it takes a few runs for the DME to figure out whats going on. 3) is it better to get timing down on the first run or will the car run as strong if I let it adapt?

I beleive that the DME adapts...I have seen it over and over and over when I thought I had a problem with my meth system. Terry told me more meth...more meth.... and it just didn't add up to me how my timing could be 15, drop to 8 (every time drop to 8) and climb back to 15 again. Like shiv said it should be 9-10....no higher...no lower. Its the timing being up over 10 that induces the DME to bring it down. I beleive this because I have logged timing without making changes to anything and it gets better and better and better until it flat lines over 10 like you see above.

I choose to use a large nozzle becasue I want to be able to bump up a few maps if I want to. Map 10 or 11 is plenty and I have logged timing(flatlined above 10 with both maps)

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Doesnt the AT DME automatically reduce ignition on the shift or something?

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by Clap135

meth has no effect on a/f ratio on this car.
This car has targets, if you add more meth, the car will remove fuel and still hit its target.

Your timing drops are caused by the vanos transition period which some car are plagued with. Why it exactly happens, i don't know as I have never personally seen it or logged it. I just saw it a punch of times on various car, mostly automatic for some reason.

+1000. Mobile, this man knows what he is talking about.

Now whether that can be tuned out is a subject for discussion. I spent a lot of time on this exact problem. Monitor AFRs in that range and you will see the vanos event also causes a momentarily leaner condition. I discovered this first when I began tuning for nitrous. That VANOS event would trip my AFR lean condition. The leaning out of the AFRs baffled me for a while. I had tons of logs of it happening, so I began to look deeper into the problem. I looked at what the JB3 was commanding for fuel at that rpm and I found it would ask for 100% additional fuel (limited by fueling resistor) all around the VANOS rpm. During the VANOS the fueling request was dropping to like 80%. What I discovered is the DME is momentarily targeting slightly lower boost during the VANOS event, hence the JB3 would request lower boost during the event. The reason the lower boost target is significant is the JB3 targets 100% additional fueling (limited by fueling resistor) above 12 psi. Since the JB3 is fueling based on boost targets, you are running into the problem. I suspect your boost is momentarily falling below 12 psi or during your timing drop and that means on map 7 you won't get 100% additional fueling. I suspect the slightly leaner AFR during the VANOS event is resulting in a small KR event that you are seeing. In my opinion, there is no question though that you are seeing a KR event and I do not think it is a result of your methanol system at all.

You can fix this by going with anything below a 4.7k fuel resistor and use the fuel taper feature. This way you can richen the entire rpm range and assure the VANOS event will not go lean enough to trigger the KR event. For me, it has eliminated the KR event almost all together. I also suspect a small CPS offset there could eliminate the KR event, but without first hand experience that would be only speculation.

[Penn999]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Incorrect. I reserve the right to invite myself over for dinner for every Procede sold. Ask around and check the fine print.

Im having filet tonight, how do you like it cooked? LOL

[M3 Eater]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

+1000. Mobile, this man knows what he is talking about.

Now whether that can be tuned out is a subject for discussion. I spent a lot of time on this exact problem. Monitor AFRs in that range and you will see the vanos event also causes a momentarily leaner condition. I discovered this first when I began tuning for nitrous. That VANOS event would trip my AFR lean condition. The leaning out of the AFRs baffled me for a while. I had tons of logs of it happening, so I began to look deeper into the problem. I looked at what the JB3 was commanding for fuel at that rpm and I found it would ask for 100% additional fuel (limited by fueling resistor) all around the VANOS rpm. During the VANOS the fueling request was dropping to like 80%. What I discovered is the DME is momentarily targeting slightly lower boost during the VANOS event, hence the JB3 would request lower boost during the event. The reason the lower boost target is significant is the JB3 targets 100% additional fueling (limited by fueling resistor) above 12 psi. Since the JB3 is fueling based on boost targets, you are running into the problem. I suspect your boost is momentarily falling below 12 psi or during your timing drop and that means on map 7 you won't get 100% additional fueling. I suspect the slightly leaner AFR during the VANOS event is resulting in a small KR event that you are seeing. In my opinion, there is no question though that you are seeing a KR event and I do not think it is a result of your methanol system at all.

You can fix this by going with anything below a 4.7k fuel resistor and use the fuel taper feature. This way you can richen the entire rpm range and assure the VANOS event will not go lean enough to trigger the KR event. For me, it has eliminated the KR event almost all together. I also suspect a small CPS offset there could eliminate the KR event, but without first hand experience that would be only speculation.

Who said I wouldn't get a technical answer here on e90....

So the 4.7 resistor.... is this something you know how to do on jb3 or you think that it will be improved on G4? And as for the fuel taper feature, do you mean use a custom map and instead of 100% fuel use a smaller figure?

How should I dial it down and should I even mess with it if a few runs teaches the DME not to go lean here? I mean, timing is looking solid in the second log wouldn't you agree?

Thank you soooooo much for your expert advice. JP turned me on to the idea of the DME playing games with me and it just made total sense. Why would I have timing so damn high and have it drop off to exactly 7.8 every damn time. Now 7.8 would be ok if it flatlined there through the whole range but to drop from say 12 to 7.8 just isn't kind.

I know I am not dropping below 12 as my logs have me at 15 even during a shift so I am questioning that 12 trigger point for the lean command but I deffinatley see this happening at the vanos rpm. I say its got to be the high timing coupled with the vanos event but again I am just speculating.

Please PM with a game plan on swapping my fueling resistor and dialing down my fuel.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by M3 Eater

Who said I wouldn't get a technical answer here on e90....

So the 4.7 resistor.... is this something you know how to do on jb3 or you think that it will be improved on G4? And as for the fuel taper feature, do you mean use a custom map and instead of 100% fuel use a smaller figure?

How should I dial it down and should I even mess with it if a few runs teaches the DME not to go lean here? I mean, timing is looking solid in the second log wouldn't you agree?

Thank you soooooo much for your expert advice. JP turned me on to the idea of the DME playing games with me and it just made total sense. Why would I have timing so damn high and have it drop off to exactly 7.8 every damn time. Now 7.8 would be ok if it flatlined there through the whole range but to drop from say 12 to 7.8 just isn't kind.

I know I am not dropping below 12 as my logs have me at 15 even during a shift so I am questioning that 12 trigger point for the lean command but I deffinatley see this happening at the vanos rpm. I say its got to be the high timing coupled with the vanos event but again I am just speculating.

Please PM with a game plan on swapping my fueling resistor and dialing down my fuel.

It is not the high timing per say, but the timing combined with the AFR momentary lean tick during the VANOS event. In the higher gears, you simply never go through the VANOS event since you rpms stay above it.

The issue can be solved by making sure your boost never drops below 12 psi during the VANOS event for the JB guys. This took me a couple of weeks to figure out. Can you post an Excel format of your logs for me to look at? In particular look at what the JB3 is commanding for fuel and your boost when the VANOS event occurs. I suspect it is below 100%.

Regardless if you replace those 4.7k resistors on your board with a 3.3k or 2.2k then use the fuel taper feature on the JB3 to dial your AFRs a little richer then the problem should go away. Clap is 100% correct, this car is very, very fast and accurate at hitting the target AFRs. The problem is not whether it is hitting the target AFRs, it is that the boost is dropping below the threshold for the JB3 to target 100% fueling.

In the longer range, yes I do suspect that the JB4 will solve this but I cannot say as I have not tested it. Once I do test it, then I can report my findings.

[Clap135]

Isn't there a way he can raise boost in that portion of the power band using the jb3 interface?

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Isn't there a way he can raise boost in that portion of the power band using the jb3 interface?

Clap, as I understand the JB3 mirrors the stock boost curve and it dips in that rpm as well. I have actually logged stock and it does show the same boost drop. If you look at JB3 and Procede tunes, you will see the dip in power and torque at the VANOS event. If you were to log during that drop on the dyno you would see the same drop in boost. At this point, as far as I can see you cannot command boost specifically at defined rpms/load with a tune other than CP-E Standback 2.

Again, please understand this is from what I have been able to test. I have no first hand experience with any tune other than the JB3 so there is some speculation that seems reasonable.

[Clap135]

I remember reading somewhere that Terry mentioned u can increase boost download by changing parameters. On my process I never see that drop then again it doesn't mirror the stock curve either.

[M3 Eater]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

It is not the high timing per say, but the timing combined with the AFR momentary lean tick during the VANOS event. In the higher gears, you simply never go through the VANOS event since you rpms stay above it.

The issue can be solved by making sure your boost never drops below 12 psi during the VANOS event for the JB guys. This took me a couple of weeks to figure out. Can you post an Excel format of your logs for me to look at? In particular look at what the JB3 is commanding for fuel and your boost when the VANOS event occurs. I suspect it is below 100%.

Regardless if you replace those 4.7k resistors on your board with a 3.3k or 2.2k then use the fuel taper feature on the JB3 to dial your AFRs a little richer then the problem should go away. Clap is 100% correct, this car is very, very fast and accurate at hitting the target AFRs. The problem is not whether it is hitting the target AFRs, it is that the boost is dropping below the threshold for the JB3 to target 100% fueling.

In the longer range, yes I do suspect that the JB4 will solve this but I cannot say as I have not tested it. Once I do test it, then I can report my findings.

Hmmm, so lets say as my car adapts to map 8 on the first wot log run it hits 11 adn tapers to 8, on the second it hits 12 and tapers to 9, on the third 13and tapers to 10 and 4h 14, until it hits and holds 17, this could explain why and how the car corrects timing after it has adapted. I'll buy that 12 number there then. That makes enough sense.

So any picks of the fueling resistor. I thought I changed one out when I did my 18 ohm upgrade but I was told that it wasn't a fueling resistor that I changed. Then, what exactly do you mean about tapering the fuel, wouldn't that be reducing the fuel... not increasing it?

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Clap135

I remember reading somewhere that Terry mentioned u can increase boost download by changing parameters. On my process I never see that drop then again it doesn't mirror the stock curve either.

I remember when Terry was transitioning from 1.22 to 1.3 beta he actually decreased top end taper with an average customer dynoing the difference. So it IS possible, just not user adjustable at this point it seems.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by M3 Eater

Hmmm, so lets say as my car adapts to map 8 on the first wot log run it hits 11 adn tapers to 8, on the second it hits 12 and tapers to 9, on the third 13and tapers to 10 and 4h 14, until it hits and holds 17, this could explain why and how the car corrects timing after it has adapted. I'll buy that 12 number there then. That makes enough sense.

So any picks of the fueling resistor. I thought I changed one out when I did my 18 ohm upgrade but I was told that it wasn't a fueling resistor that I changed. Then, what exactly do you mean about tapering the fuel, wouldn't that be reducing the fuel... not increasing it?

You don't have to buy anything from me. Log and look at the CSV data then check what boost and fuel commanded look like on the logs. I am simply communicating how I discerned what the problem appears to be. I don't intend this to sound rude in any way, so I hope I am communicating that.

The real solution is to raise boost above 12 psi during the VANOS event on the JB3 since it commands 100% additional fuel above 12 psi. That would never allow the fuel command the resulting AFR lean spike to occur at all. I am not a professional tuner, but that is how I would solve this.

[M3 Eater]

ah...sorry for the ignorance... the fuel safety setting. I have set to 10 now per terry. Is there a better figure to use for now until I can change the resitor out? Or can I just change this to a different # and get push in the right direction.

I read most of your AFR write up and it was a bit over my head. As I never plan to use nitrous, I am not sure that your exact set up is what I would need. Former, do you have a sugguestion for how I should procede? Would you need to see AFR logs?

[M3 Eater]

ahh... I am getting it now... By using the 1 K resistor, I would have to cut back the fuel on the Jb3 end of things. Former do you think that I would need the 1K? I am running between 700-800ml/min. I guess I could map up to like 9 or 10 and force boost to be a bit higher at 4K rpms and that was one of my origional solutions but I chose if for a different reason. I figured the DMe was cutting something when it saw so much octane down low. I doesn't make sense to me though how preboost never goes below 15 and yet your thinking that my boost is dropping below 12. This is possilbe on the first few runs and maybe no changes are required once the car is boosting to spec.