[vithy]

Got you. I will try it in the evening.

Thanks

Originally Posted by kaigoss69

Underseat woofers: reverse
Trunk sub: normal

[vithy]

kaigoss69, When I reversed the polarity of the under seat, with the settings you suggested. It sounds a little boomy and distorted. Is there any special settings?

I reverted back and installed a quick disconnect pair connector, in case i switch it back to try.

What would you suggest for xover for OEM speakers? Should I use all 24db/oct?

Thanks

[kaigoss69]

Originally Posted by vithy

kaigoss69, When I reversed the polarity of the under seat, with the settings you suggested. It sounds a little boomy and distorted. Is there any special settings?

I reverted back and installed a quick disconnect pair connector, in case i switch it back to try.

What would you suggest for xover for OEM speakers? Should I use all 24db/oct?

Thanks

That doesn't make any sense. Did you recalibrate after you made the polarity changes? You have to!

If it is still boomy after recalibration, I'm sure the culprit is the trunk sub. Set the crossover lower, try 60-70hz at 24db/oct.

Subs in small enclosures can sound boomy at 60-80Hz, you may have to set the crossover lower as a result.

To test (confirm) if the sub polarity should be normal or reverse from the underseats take a look at my Scooby Doo thread!

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=748569

[vithy]

Yes, recalibrated after i reversed it. I actually tried it twice, as it thought i did something wrong. First time sounded very distorted and boomy. Second time around it was much better, but I can still hear it being distorted, but not as much boomy.

I will set my trunk sub between 60-70 @ 24db/oct. And revert under seat and try a re-calibration again.

I have been read your Scooby Doo post. I have the calibration apps downloaded. Will try it soon. Too cold today here up north. -38 Celsius with windchill. Don't think i will survive outside for more than a few min.

Do you calibrate with the car started?

Originally Posted by kaigoss69

That doesn't make any sense. Did you recalibrate after you made the polarity changes? You have to!

If it is still boomy after recalibration, I'm sure the culprit is the trunk sub. Set the crossover lower, try 60-70hz at 24db/oct.

Subs in small enclosures can sound boomy at 60-80Hz, you may have to set the crossover lower as a result.

To test (confirm) if the sub polarity should be normal or reverse from the underseats take a look at my Scooby Doo thread!

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=748569

[taibanl]

I am on record of having said that I get best results with a 24 dB slope on the woofers and a 12 dB slope on the sub..
Or was it the other way around

[kaigoss69]

Originally Posted by vithy

Yes, recalibrated after i reversed it. I actually tried it twice, as it thought i did something wrong. First time sounded very distorted and boomy. Second time around it was much better, but I can still hear it being distorted, but not as much boomy.

I will set my trunk sub between 60-70 @ 24db/oct. And revert under seat and try a re-calibration again.

I have been read your Scooby Doo post. I have the calibration apps downloaded. Will try it soon. Too cold today here up north. -38 Celsius with windchill. Don't think i will survive outside for more than a few min.

Do you calibrate with the car started?

What is distorting, the underseats or trunk sub?

If it is the underseats then you probably have to raise the crossover point.

You have it hooked up as a three-way front, right? Assuming the boomyness comes from the sub, you can try another thing if your amp has a low pass filter. Set the LPF about 10-15hz lower than the MS-8 crossover point. This will chop off a potential peak in the enclosure response, which makes it sound boomy.

Always calibrate with engine off and in a quiet area.

[vithy]

Distortion is coming from the underseats for sure. I disconnected the SUB and listened to a few tracks that I usually do after calibration. It almost sounds like at around 180-230 it struggles. Not sure if i'm doing it right.

Which crossover point should I change for the underseats? I'm assuming Low/Mid (Currently @ 80hz 24db/oct) ?

Yes, i'm running 3 way fronts. My Sub amp (trunk sub) is setup this way...

LPF @80hz gain set to zero. So I should bring it down to about 65-70 on the SUB Amp? and still crossover at 80hz on MS8?

My Current setup: 3 way front low/mid @80 24db/oct, mid/hi @250 24db/oct, hp @20 24db/oct, sides @250 24db/oct

Thanks

Originally Posted by kaigoss69

What is distorting, the underseats or trunk sub?

If it is the underseats then you probably have to raise the crossover point.

You have it hooked up as a three-way front, right? Assuming the boomyness comes from the sub, you can try another thing if your amp has a low pass filter. Set the LPF about 10-15hz lower than the MS-8 crossover point. This will chop off a potential peak in the enclosure response, which makes it sound boomy.

Always calibrate with engine off and in a quiet area.

[vithy]

So, Are you saying keep the woofer slope (mid/hi) at 24 dB and low/mid @ 12 dB?

Originally Posted by taibanl

I am on record of having said that I get best results with a 24 dB slope on the woofers and a 12 dB slope on the sub..
Or was it the other way around

[kaigoss69]

Originally Posted by vithy

Distortion is coming from the underseats for sure. I disconnected the SUB and listened to a few tracks that I usually do after calibration. It almost sounds like at around 180-230 it struggles. Not sure if i'm doing it right.

Which crossover point should I change for the underseats? I'm assuming Low/Mid (Currently @ 80hz 24db/oct) ?

Yes, i'm running 3 way fronts. My Sub amp (trunk sub) is setup this way...

LPF @80hz gain set to zero. So I should bring it down to about 65-70 on the SUB Amp? and still crossover at 80hz on MS8?

My Current setup: 3 way front low/mid @80 24db/oct, mid/hi @250 24db/oct, hp @20 24db/oct, sides @250 24db/oct

Thanks

Ok do this:

Leave the low/mid xover at 80/24
Change the mid/high xover to 100/24
Do not use the amp LPF at this time
Calibrate
Make sure underseats no longer distort
Now increase sub amp gain by 25% recalibrate
Note: if sub sweeps sounded a lot louder than other sweeps, stop here.
Increase gain again by 25%
Recalibrate

Note which amp gain setting gives you best sub response.

[vithy]

kaigoss69, I haven't done what you suggested here yet.

But, I did a system default on MS8 and setup all according the my previous setup. The Underseat distortion is completely gone and not boomy either. I don't understand why. I'm confused. Only thing I did was system reset MS8.

Under Seats Are NOT reversed at this point, however trunk sub is reversed.

HP @20 24db/oct
Low/Mid @ 80 24db/oct (Trunk Sub)
Mid/High @ 250 24db/oct (Under Seats)
Sides @ 250 24db/oct (Doors rear)

Trunk Sub/AMP
HPF @80 (defulat is 12db/oct. Can't change as its what the AMP is setup internally)
Gain set to zero/min

It seems like MS8 reset seems to have fixed the issue. But I will try the method you mentioned here today after reversing underseats and putting back the trunk SUB normally.

Originally Posted by kaigoss69

Ok do this:

Leave the low/mid xover at 80/24
Change the mid/high xover to 100/24
Do not use the amp LPF at this time
Calibrate
Make sure underseats no longer distort
Now increase sub amp gain by 25% recalibrate
Note: if sub sweeps sounded a lot louder than other sweeps, stop here.
Increase gain again by 25%
Recalibrate

Note which amp gain setting gives you best sub response.

[kaigoss69]

Originally Posted by vithy

kaigoss69, I haven't done what you suggested here yet.

But, I did a system default on MS8 and setup all according the my previous setup. The Underseat distortion is completely gone and not boomy either. I don't understand why. I'm confused. Only thing I did was system reset MS8.

Under Seats Are NOT reversed at this point, however trunk sub is reversed.

HP @20 24db/oct
Low/Mid @ 80 24db/oct (Trunk Sub)
Mid/High @ 250 24db/oct (Under Seats)
Sides @ 250 24db/oct (Doors rear)

Trunk Sub/AMP
HPF @80 (defulat is 12db/oct. Can't change as its what the AMP is setup internally)
Gain set to zero/min

It seems like MS8 reset seems to have fixed the issue. But I will try the method you mentioned here today after reversing underseats and putting back the trunk SUB normally.

If the distortion is gone, and the boomyness, just leave it. The above settings were for troubleshooting. However, I would advise you to lower the mid/high crossover to somewhere around 150hz, it'll sound better.

[vithy]

I will do that today... I was going to reduce it to 180, as I noticed it distorting the other day around 180-220. Will bring it down to 150 24db/oct

About the Sub AMP. I found out that it internally set at 12db/oct. Should I change the xover on MS8 too at 80 12db/oct?

Thank you

Originally Posted by kaigoss69

If the distortion is gone, and the boomyness, just leave it. The above settings were for troubleshooting. However, I would advise you to lower the mid/high crossover to somewhere around 150hz, it'll sound better.

[kaigoss69]

Originally Posted by vithy

I will do that today... I was going to reduce it to 180, as I noticed it distorting the other day around 180-220. Will bring it down to 150 24db/oct

About the Sub AMP. I found out that it internally set at 12db/oct. Should I change the xover on MS8 too at 80 12db/oct?

Thank you

What amp is it? Can you defeat the crossover?

[vithy]

Its a Rockford Fosgate RT2002. Don't know how to defeat or even if it's possible with it.

Sub I'm using is a low profile Pioneer TS-SWX2502

Amp User Guide
http://a248.e.akamai.net.0.1.cn.akam...700rfpl210.pdf

Originally Posted by kaigoss69

What amp is it? Can you defeat the crossover?

[squidlyboy]

I was referred here by vithy, but i heard kaigoss is the man Here's my situation. I have a 2014 BMW F30 328i m-sport with standard HiFi 9 speaker system. I first upgraded my stock speakers to the Bavsound Stage-1 speakers (front mid/tweeters, rear mids, center mid) keeping the OEM amp and OEM under-seat woofers. The SQ improved, but I noticed they were very inefficient speakers, and i wanted more punch/power.

A forum member had a MS-8 / XD800/8v2 / Technic Harness combo for sale at a good price, so i jumped on it. When i received the units, i noticed the mic/headsets were damaged. One of the wires to one side of the mic was hanging by a thread. He graciously offered to replace it with a new unit, but before i returned it to him, i decided to try out the auto-tune. It didn't error out, but the results were totally underwhelming. I seemed to only get audio out through tweeters, but it was heavily distorted/breaking up. There was NO bass at all... sounded like AM radio. I was really hoping that it was because of the damaged mic and/or i had no idea what i was doing. I had the HU balanced differential input (L+R) going into the MS-8, then the line level outputs going into the line inputs of the XD800. The amp gains were all set at minimum, and all the crossovers/filtering was shut off and deferred to the MS-8 (XD800 acting as a clean, powerful, dumb amp).

But here were the instructions that i was sent and was told that Technic had sent to him in the way of setup /configuration goes. I followed this to a T:

---

The MS-8 speaker output configuration is:

- CH1 = Left front
- CH2 = Right front
- CH3 = Left rear
- CH4 = Right rear
- CH5 = Center
- CH6 = Left woofer
- CH7 = Right woofer
- CH8 = Not used

Suggested MS-8 setup:

- skip input setup
- Sub = 2, subsonic at 50Hz at 18dB slope, low pass at 200Hz at 12dB slope
- Front = 1-way
- Center = 1-way, 200Hz at 18dB
- Sides = 1-way, 200Hz at 18dB

Calibration volume = -25dB

Main volume after calibration = -6dB

Adjust to taste.

---

While the ms-8 was being shipped back, i hooked up just the xd800 amp to the system, and wow... it just totally blew me away. i can't even begin to tell you how unreal the sound system suddenly became. The ms-8 is now on its way back to me, and as you can imagine, i'm a little nervous hooking it up, because part of me is wondering if the ~$300 i paid for this unit is going to give me that much improvement in SQ. Still, i'm getting a brand new unit from Hardon, and i'm planning on keeping this, so i'm going to give it a go.

Here's my questions:

1) Looking at the instructions that Technic gave to the original owner, is there a better setup/configuration i can use?

2) I keep hearing mixed things about the calibration volume. Most of what i hear is that the lower the better, but i've also heard that it really doesn't matter. Whats the real story here?

3) I heard from Vithy about this "Kaigoss Mod" but haven't been able to find out what exactly that is. Something about setting up the fronts as a 3-way? Can someone point me to a post that explains that. Sorry if this has been discussed a zillion times.

4) Any other mods/tips/tricks to make the MS-8 tune an F30 properly?

I'm guessing all the optimized settings/configuration for BMW's and for the F30 has been discussion ad nauseam, so i want to apologize in advance for not taking more time to read up. If there is a FAQ somewhere someone can point me to instead, i would be forever grateful! Thanks in advance! I'm really looking forward to hearing improved audio when i get my MS-8 in the mail!

[kaigoss69]

The MS-8 will give you better tonality, staging and imaging. Look those things up if you don't know and decide if you care about that. Also be prepared to have the music mostly play in front of you. This is not a "surround" processor! The music will sound how it should sound.

Also understand that with the MS-8 you have to go through quite a bit of tinkering until everything is dialed in. Probably 5 - 10 hours if you're lucky! But once you're done you'll be glad you did it!

If you go ahead, I will also tell you to lose the center channel unless you are willing to add a tweeter to it! You don't need the center for a "one seat wonder".

Originally Posted by squidlyboy

I was referred here by vithy, but i heard kaigoss is the man Here's my situation. I have a 2014 BMW F30 328i m-sport with standard HiFi 9 speaker system. I first upgraded my stock speakers to the Bavsound Stage-1 speakers (front mid/tweeters, rear mids, center mid) keeping the OEM amp and OEM under-seat woofers. The SQ improved, but I noticed they were very inefficient speakers, and i wanted more punch/power.

A forum member had a MS-8 / XD800/8v2 / Technic Harness combo for sale at a good price, so i jumped on it. When i received the units, i noticed the mic/headsets were damaged. One of the wires to one side of the mic was hanging by a thread. He graciously offered to replace it with a new unit, but before i returned it to him, i decided to try out the auto-tune. It didn't error out, but the results were totally underwhelming. I seemed to only get audio out through tweeters, but it was heavily distorted/breaking up. There was NO bass at all... sounded like AM radio. I was really hoping that it was because of the damaged mic and/or i had no idea what i was doing. I had the HU balanced differential input (L+R) going into the MS-8, then the line level outputs going into the line inputs of the XD800. The amp gains were all set at minimum, and all the crossovers/filtering was shut off and deferred to the MS-8 (XD800 acting as a clean, powerful, dumb amp).

But here were the instructions that i was sent and was told that Technic had sent to him in the way of setup /configuration goes. I followed this to a T:

---

The MS-8 speaker output configuration is:

- CH1 = Left front
- CH2 = Right front
- CH3 = Left rear
- CH4 = Right rear
- CH5 = Center
- CH6 = Left woofer
- CH7 = Right woofer
- CH8 = Not used

Suggested MS-8 setup:

- skip input setup
- Sub = 2, subsonic at 50Hz at 18dB slope, low pass at 200Hz at 12dB slope
- Front = 1-way
- Center = 1-way, 200Hz at 18dB
- Sides = 1-way, 200Hz at 18dB

Calibration volume = -25dB

Main volume after calibration = -6dB

Adjust to taste.

---

While the ms-8 was being shipped back, i hooked up just the xd800 amp to the system, and wow... it just totally blew me away. i can't even begin to tell you how unreal the sound system suddenly became. The ms-8 is now on its way back to me, and as you can imagine, i'm a little nervous hooking it up, because part of me is wondering if the ~$300 i paid for this unit is going to give me that much improvement in SQ. Still, i'm getting a brand new unit from Hardon, and i'm planning on keeping this, so i'm going to give it a go.

Here's my questions:

1) Looking at the instructions that Technic gave to the original owner, is there a better setup/configuration i can use?

2) I keep hearing mixed things about the calibration volume. Most of what i hear is that the lower the better, but i've also heard that it really doesn't matter. Whats the real story here?

3) I heard from Vithy about this "Kaigoss Mod" but haven't been able to find out what exactly that is. Something about setting up the fronts as a 3-way? Can someone point me to a post that explains that. Sorry if this has been discussed a zillion times.

4) Any other mods/tips/tricks to make the MS-8 tune an F30 properly?

I'm guessing all the optimized settings/configuration for BMW's and for the F30 has been discussion ad nauseam, so i want to apologize in advance for not taking more time to read up. If there is a FAQ somewhere someone can point me to instead, i would be forever grateful! Thanks in advance! I'm really looking forward to hearing improved audio when i get my MS-8 in the mail!

[squidlyboy]

Originally Posted by kaigoss69

...
If you go ahead, I will also tell you to lose the center channel unless you are willing to add a tweeter to it! You don't need the center for a "one seat wonder".

Yeah, i'll definitely add a tweeter i noticed in the recessed area where i added my center BSW mid, there was a little pocket for a tweeter. If i can add a passive crossover there along with a tweeter that will fit. i'm down.

What tweeter would you recommend i add?

[kaigoss69]

Originally Posted by squidlyboy

Yeah, i'll definitely add a tweeter i noticed in the recessed area where i added my center BSW mid, there was a little pocket for a tweeter. If i can add a passive crossover there along with a tweeter that will fit. i'm down.

What tweeter would you recommend i add?

My best advice would be to try first without the center.

[squidlyboy]

Ok, i'll try that...

i got the new ms-8 in earlier today and wanted to see what would happen with a brand new ms-8 unit on my FIRST TUNE (didn't even peel the protective plastic off the unit yet) just following the standard instructions that i got from Technic (see my prev post):

1) No tweeter distortion, but still only tweeter audio coming out. AM radio is what i'm hearing
2) No Bass AT ALL. I mean... AT ALL
3) Super soft volume. When ms-8 was out of the picture and only the xd800 was hooked up, i could only get the volume up to 50% before the ear-splitting (but amazing SQ!!!) migraine headache started in - brilliant expansive stage, deep clarity, and overpowering yet controlled tight bass, like a heartbeat. Can't even begin to tell you how amazing. Now with ms-8 in line, i go 100% and its enough volume maybe for a mouse to rock out.

Surely someone out there has an F30, standard HiFi, Bavsound Stage-1 upgrade, JL Audio XD800/8v2 and JBL MS-8 DSP. Its a pretty common configuration. I specifically picked these components because its the config that a huge percentage of the F30 community has also decided to go with. What is the final configuration you settled on for the best sound? I would love to go through 5-10 hours of tweaking, but someone throw me a bone and help me get 80% of the way there by this weekend :-)

[squidlyboy]

deleted the center ... here are the results:

1) not only did all the bass return, but it returned with a vengeance! too overpowering. it started to distort the mids in the fronts, and i lost clarity in the highs as the bass was just too over-the-top. which reminds me ...

2) i just noticed that when you set the fronts as 1-way, it doesn't allow you to set a crossover point... why? i would think this is the most important set of speakers (have my BSW S-1 mid/tweeters there) and you'll want to high pass this at around 200Hz. But there was no option to. how come?

3) Furthermost, why does the center allow you to set a crossover? Seems like the most useless speaker anyways. I deleted this speaker, but weird that this allowed you to set a crossover, but the fronts didn't. Can someone explain this?

4) sound still very soft. I can turn up to 100% and still nowhere close to what the xd800 could do by itself. I used to go only up to 50%-60% before it was too loud. Worse, at 100% i'm hearing distortion - need to back down to around 80% to make distortion go away.

Calibration volume still at -25db
ch1 - left front
ch2 - right front
ch3 - left rear (side left - 200hz at 18db)
ch4 - right rear (side right - 200hz at 18db)
ch5 - unused
ch6 - underseat woofer (set as sub1) - subsonic at 50hz 18db, LP @200hz at 12db
ch7 - underseat woofer (set as sub2)
ch8 - unused

[kaigoss69]

Ok squidly, do this:

- set the front as 2-way, no sub
- subsonic 50hz 24db/oct, low/hi 200/24
- sides 100/24
- set all xd gains at 12 o'clock (for now)
- calibrate at -35db (if sweeps seem louder than conversation volume, adjust lower and recalibrate)
- Only run sweeps for drivers seat
- unplug mic before you select "done"

Let me know how it sounds. You may have to play with the amp gains for the underseats to get it dialed in correctly.

[squidlyboy]

ok, think i'm getting more in sync with you now. After my previous post, I noticed that most people were mapping their underseats to ch 3&4 then setting their fronts as 2-way. So i tried that last night before going to bed. My numbers and mappings from last night are similar to what you suggested this morning, but i will try your specific numbers when i get home from work today. But here are the results from last night.

Here was my adjusted config:

ch1 - front left mid/tweeter (FL-Hi)
ch2 - front right mid/tweeter (FR-Hi)
ch3 - left underseat woofer (FL-Lo)
ch4 - right underseat woofer (FR-Lo)
ch5 - unused (was center)
ch6 - rear left (door) mid (SL)
ch7 - rear right (door) mid (SR)
ch8 - unused

calibrated at -25db (sweeps sounded lower than conversation level)

Input Settings:
Sub - none
Front - 2-way (1st xo: 70hz/12, 2nd xo: 170hz/24)
Center - none
Side - 1-way (xo: 170hz/24)
Rear - none

Note: the Front setting still confuses me. I get that i'm setting up 4 channels for the Front (L+R mid/tweeters and the L+R underseat woofers), but why are there two crossover points? the 1st xo point seems to be a LP (goes only from 20hz-100hz) only. This assumes a sub, which i didn't specify. I only wanted to separate the underseat woofers from the mid/tweeter combo. So it seems like only the 2nd xo point is needed (which i set to 170hz/24). Anyways ...

Results/Observations:
1) most noticeable thing is that the sound level is still super low. i need to crank HU volume now up to 90% to get to same volume that only needed 50% with just the XD800 amp in place. And it also starts distorting there, whereas with just XD800, i used to be able to go 75% (this is where headache inducing volume starts), and all the speakers/signal were still perfectly clean, holding well, and non-distorted

2) bass is no longer overpowering, but more in the 'lacking' camp again. so to compensate i tried to turn gain up on the xd800 last night to the underseats channels, but i overdid it and now its overly boomy for the level of the mid/tweeters. Not a good sound. That plus the fact i have to go close to 100% volume to get the same level i was used to before, didn't make it pleasurable to listen to.

3) my best baseline sound that i ever achieved was with just the xd800 in place. it was pure gold, pure sound, and pure pleasure. the expansive sound, the clarity and detail, and super tight controlled bass notes even at the lowest registers was simply amazing. i still hold this as the gold standard. i'm sure the ms-8 can get there, but the question that will be looming large in my mind while i continue to tweak is... will it ever get BETTER than that? For the money i paid for this unit, it better the funny thing is that for the xd800, it took all of 30 seconds to get that by turning a few knobs, and flipping a few switches. everything i did made sense, and i felt like i was controlling the shape of the sound. Now..everything i'm doing feels like i'm just guessing, in order to compensate for this wacky ms-8 algorithm. nothing i'm doing so far makes total sense to me, and i feel not-so in control of the sound.

Questions:

1) noticed when i specified no sub during the input selection, it removed that low-bass-y sweep from the calibration. why? i guess this sorta makes sense, but i thought maybe since i'm still calibrating the underseat woofers, it would still be needed. Because i did specify the 70hz x.o point during the front 2-way xo config.)

2) i'm running HU -> ms-8 -> xd800/8v2 -> speakers. i'm wondering if anyone has tried to do the calibration step without the after amp in place? Just wondering if it would make it easier for the ms-8 to do its algorithm knowing that there are less variables involved that could potentially mess it up?

I will try your new config you suggested when i go home tonight. Thanks!