[themyst]

Originally Posted by chesterfan1230

Hey, I do plenty of track days myself. After testdriving a friends Procede car I felt that it was the tune for me. The point of this thread was to show that with both tunes on similar hardware now using similar boost mapping techniques they both deliver the same performance on cars that are EXACTLY like the same. Only difference being choice of tune.

Put it this way, the motor in one tune's car is far happier than the motor in the other.

[scott135i]

Originally Posted by chesterfan1230

The point of this thread was to show that with both tunes on similar hardware now using similar boost mapping techniques they both deliver the same performance on cars that are EXACTLY like the same. Only difference being choice of tune.

Exactly. Point of this was to test real world power/performance from an ACCELERATION STANDPOINT ONLY on two 'identical' cars with different tunes.

I think there is more come to come when both cars have DPs and FMICs installed.

That's it.

[orionredwing]

Not just a straight line.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460415

I track my car, and I love twisties on the road. Smooth power delivery is really important.

Nice review OP. Thanks for sharing.

Originally Posted by Jon335iFL

isnt that the point of both tunes to make your car go faster in a straight line.

Or have i missed the point of any tune out their in the world?

[themyst]

Originally Posted by scott135i

Exactly. Point of this was to test real world power/performance from an ACCELERATION STANDPOINT ONLY on two 'identical' cars with different tunes.

I think there is more come to come when both cars have DPs and FMICs installed.

That's it.

And the point the greater lot of us are trying to make is the fact there is far more to a tune than straight line acceleration.

[scott135i]

Originally Posted by themyst

And the point the greater lot of us are trying to make is the fact there is far more to a tune than straight line acceleration.

But the point I was making was that it was the ONLY thing that was being compared during these runs.

And I strongly agree that max straight line acceleration is only one important factor. You'd have to be silly to think otherwise.

Can't anyone ever ?

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

haha so you're admitting that with the JB3 4500 people have been driving around too aggressive sometimes?

What's most funny is that everytime you come out with an "advancement", you say how much better it is than the current setup...which just makes it look like you've been letting people drive around with boldly inferior functionality until this 'advancement' has been made. Remember when 2.0 came out and everyone thought that made the tune wayyyyy better? now 2.0 is crap compared to this? For people that have been following this for a decent amount of time, it actually works against you to say all these 'advancements' are great...because your 'advancement's' are still inferior. So when you say "this is so much better than 2.0" you're basically saying "this is better than the previous version, but it is still quite a bit away from where it SHOULD be"

The "cheaper" price point shouldn't be such a selling point unless it's equal quality. It's sad how the cheaper price persuades so many newbs to buy it....myself included.

Again, I'm glad you guys are making improvements...but if I were you I wouldn't post up a new version unless it has equal functionality/safety/driveability as it's competition.

Mike you are a good salesman and I respect you...it's just unfortunate you can't be selling products that are innovative and superior.

Happens all the time. There is a map guide telling them what to use and I still read daily about customers running map 7 otherwise stock. And even with that blatant abuse still no related failures or problems with tens of millions of customer driven miles. May even be close to hundreds of millions by now.

Now you and others can make the claim that you feel your tuning is superior or that you feel it is safer but there is nothing to substantiate that except for conjecture from the Vishnu camp. Motors have been blown with PROcede's form of timing control and those two from Sweden who had problems with the JB3s had very clear and identifiable problems that lead to those failures. What I can say with certainty is that the JB4 is much more refined and safer than the JB3 for the reasons outlined in my earlier post. In addition it's a much better value than it ever was starting at @ $349 completely unlocked with code management, boost gauges, DPFIX, full high speed diagnostics, etc, all built in. And who knows maybe Santa will bring an intro special after we clear alpha.

Mike

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Happens all the time. There is a map guide telling them what to use and I still read daily about customers running map 7 otherwise stock. And even with that blatant abuse still no related failures or problems with tens of millions of customer driven miles. May even be close to hundreds of millions by now.

Now you and others can make the claim that you feel your tuning is superior or that you feel it is safer but there is nothing to substantiate that except for conjecture from the Vishnu camp. Motors have been blown with PROcede's form of timing control and those two from Sweden who had problems with the JB3s had very clear and identifiable problems that lead to those failures. What I can say with certainty is that the JB4 is much more refined and safer than the JB3 for the reasons outlined in my earlier post. In addition it's a much better value than it ever was starting at @ $349 completely unlocked with code management, boost gauges, DPFIX, full high speed diagnostics, etc, all built in. And who knows maybe Santa will bring an intro special after we clear alpha.

Mike

Claim? More like fact.
Not on the rev.2 it hasn't.

And you want to see CPS offset in action? As stated in one of my previous posts, look at the log posted when conditions were not favorable. There's no knock, and autotune was reducing boost and retarding ignition timing, so BMS' claim of the Procede riding the knock sensor is incorrect; there are other factors in place in conjunction with the knock sensor.

edit - heck, I'll post the link again. http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=461792

Notice CPS offset retard 3 degrees of timing by comparing the timing curve from the actual ignition to the DME ignition; I don't see any knock retard events there, do you?

[OpenFlash]

To be fair to Mike, he's just writing what Terry is telling him to write. No one would post such nonsense on their own accord. I don't believe he even believes what he is typing.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Motors

Don't you mean engines, motors are turned by electricity.

[fisherbln]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

What I can say with certainty is that the JB4 is much more refined and safer than the JB3 for the reasons outlined in my earlier post.

Mike

So what you're saying for a "certainty" is that the features BMS has added make the JB4 safer. However, when these same features were on the Procede and not available on the JB3, the BMS camp claimed that these features were both unnecessary and did not add to safety in any way.

Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

I'm sure you guys will eventually add timing control and then you'll be willing to admit that it makes the tune safer. Until then, it is just another useless feature.

[ExpensiveTaste]

You guys are crazy. I think BMS is using incorrect wording when they say "safer". As stated above by Mike, when he says "safer", he is referring to the ability the tune has to not do idiotic things that the user would control. It is not really safety, but peace of mind that an uninformed user can't mess things up. Therefore, the JB3 was just as safe if controlled by someone who knew what they were doing. Autotuning is just a feature created for the lazy...

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by ExpensiveTaste

You guys are crazy. I think BMS is using incorrect wording when they say "safer". As stated above by Mike, when he says "safer", he is referring to the ability the tune has to not do idiotic things that the user would control. It is not really safety, but peace of mind that an uninformed user can't mess things up. Therefore, the JB3 was just as safe if controlled by someone who knew what they were doing. Autotuning is just a feature created for the lazy...

Or for smart people with better things to do that datalog several times a day and constantly make manual adjustments. Autotuning would be a lot easier if the only thing that was adjusted was boost target. But the Procede is more than a simple boost controller.

And if you think following map selection guidelines is appropriate for everyone in the real world (with varying conditions), you'd be wrong. As evident by all those people that change maps based upon time of day and ambient temp.

[McMuffin]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

To be fair to Mike, he's just writing what Terry is telling him to write. No one would post such nonsense on their own accord. I don't believe he even believes what he is typing.

Just curious, why isn't Terry in here to defend his tune? Is it true he got paid off by someone not to be in here anymore?

[themyst]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Or for smart people with better things to do that datalog several times a day and constantly make manual adjustments. Autotuning would be a lot easier if the only thing that was adjusted was boost target. But the Procede is more than a simple boost controller.

And if you think following map selection guidelines is appropriate for everyone in the real world (with varying conditions), you'd be wrong. As evident by all those people that change maps based upon time of day and ambient temp.

+1000

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by McMuffin

Just curious, why isn't Terry in here to defend his tune? Is it true he got paid off by someone not to be in here anymore?

You're gullible.

[McMuffin]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

You're gullible.

[Slidewayz]

I am a long time Xede/PROcede customer and wouldn't consider switching tunes. Further, in my estimation Shiv is a very smart, competent, and ethical person.

So, bearing in mind my context and customer loyalty, it doesn't look like controlling timing is all that important on these cars when you're still using the stock turbos and no meth.

After all, how many JBx customers are blowing their engines or have measurable damage to them? Maybe they'll start losing compression over time, but let's face it the N54 is a tank!

My primary objection to the TerryTuner is one of business ethics. Dude clones whatever Shiv does, files off the serial numbers, and avoids innovation and R&D costs. Personally, I strive to avoid rewarding this kind of predation, but to each his own.

</thread hijack>

Thanks for the interesting data on the side-by-side pulls...not surprising.

[McMuffin]

Originally Posted by Slidewayz

I am a long time Xede/PROcede customer and wouldn't consider switching tunes. Further, in my estimation Shiv is a very smart, competent, and ethical person.

So, bearing in mind my context and customer loyalty, it doesn't look like controlling timing is all that important on these cars when you're still using the stock turbos and no meth.

After all, how many JBx customers are blowing their engines or have measurable damage to them? Maybe they'll start losing compression over time, but let's face it the N54 is a tank!

My primary objection to the TerryTuner is one of business ethics. Dude clones whatever Shiv does, files off the serial numbers, and avoids innovation and R&D costs. Personally, I strive to avoid rewarding this kind of predation, but to each his own.

</thread hijack>


Thanks for the interesting data on the side-by-side pulls...not surprising.

Has this actually been proven or are you going by what Shiv says? That's a pretty steep accusation if you ask me. But I do agree with you about Shiv, the guy is good at what he does, but so is Terry. Maybe one day I'll ditch the flash and jump on the Procede wagon too, but for now I'm pretty happy with my tune!

[ExpensiveTaste]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Or for smart people with better things to do that datalog several times a day and constantly make manual adjustments. Autotuning would be a lot easier if the only thing that was adjusted was boost target. But the Procede is more than a simple boost controller.

And if you think following map selection guidelines is appropriate for everyone in the real world (with varying conditions), you'd be wrong. As evident by all those people that change maps based upon time of day and ambient temp.

How many of us are that aggressive with our tuning? I personally select a map and go. Im not out to win any street races and I dont go to the strip every day. My point is that map selection works perfectly fine for most people. If you want to have a race car you wouldnt use a piggy back anyway.

[Pry]

Shiv,
How do you know when it's better to run more boost and less ignition advance vs less boost and more ignition advance?
Does more boost and less igniton advance give more power up to some point or what's the point of running less ignition advance vs less boost?

I know the autotune takes care of these by itself but I'm just curious.

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by maxnix

BMW = Bavarian Motor Works (auf Englisch)

It is used both ways a lot nowadays.

Technically,

Engine: Machine that converts thermal energy into mechanical motion or force.
Motor: Converts eletricity into mechanical motion or force

[forza1976]

Originally Posted by maxnix

BMW = Bavarian Motor Works (auf Englisch)

Originally Posted by BrianMN

It is used both ways a lot nowadays.

Technically,

Engine: Machine that converts thermal energy into mechanical motion or force.
Motor: Converts eletricity into mechanical motion or force