[Dr. G]

Originally Posted by n52330i

Lol. I hope no one believes this bs you post. The piston diameter is larger when you take all 4 piston diameters into consideration.

Pad compounds can be changed to change coefficient of friction. The pistons on the caliper do not melt in the caliper, EVEN used in real race application.

The floating rotor is better on 135 then 335.

The cars come with different pads from factory, so you cannot compare breaking until both calipers have same pad installed.



1 series 6 piston caliper used on race cars, single piston not.

Why you always argue? Can't afford a bbk?

LOL, oh mannnn - ok so:

First off: The brake pad COMPOUND changes the co-efficient of friction NOT the surface area, so why are you mentioning surface area?

Secondly: NO the bbk caliper does not have a greater piston area.

Thirdly: For a given leg input do you know how to calculate line pressure and brake torque? Oh no you don't well when you input 150 pounds of pressure with your leg on the pedal these are the approximate numbers for produced brake torque (rounded off for easy assesment):
135i: 850 ft/lbs
335i: 920 ft/lbs
M3: 980 ft/lbs

So once again, the diff between the 135i and the 335i is about a bit more than the diff between the 335i and m3.

Have you not been on 1addicts reading about all the heat damaged calipers?

Do you have any knowledge on the topic or are you one of those people who sees "race cars" using something so you want to use it to? Or did your mechanic sell you something and now you think it's the best because your mechanic said so?

I can't afford the BBK huh? Too bad I already have the performance bbk haha and it sucked so I decided to switch to Brembo. The performance BBK is sitting in a box making for a nice footrest when I'm tired, but if you love it so much I'd be more than happy to sell it you.

[n52330i]

The performance bbk is brembo , you should have just replaced the pads on your performance kit, as well as anyone that overheated a 1 series bbk.


I still have own size breaks in my 330 like ur 335

[Dr. G]

Originally Posted by n52330i

The performance bbk is brembo , you should have just replaced the pads on your performance kit, as well as anyone that overheated a 1 series bbk.


I still have own size breaks in my 330 like ur 335

So what if it's brembo? It's inferior and that's why BMW doesn't recommend it for the 335i. Overheating a 1-series bbk isn't about the pads not keeping up, it's the fact that everyone who goes to the track melts their dust boots and some even fracture the pistons. Most people who use the BBK and goto the track rebuild the calipers and some use shims to keep heat away. At the end of the day the point is it's a downgrade in performance, but an ugprade in looks.

[Revision2]

Not sure why this had to get offensive after Dr. G simply stated his opinion as requested by the member who resurrected this thread from the dead and he subsequently provided his thought process when pressed to justify. You guys both obviously have differing views so just agree to disagree and move on instead of turning the thread into yet another pissing match between members.

[SuperBmw]

Originally Posted by Revision2

Not sure why this had to get offensive after Dr. G simply stated his opinion as requested by the member who resurrected this thread from the dead and he subsequently provided his thought process when pressed to justify. You guys both obviously have differing views so just agree to disagree and move on instead of turning the thread into yet another pissing match between members.

lollllll n52330i got schooled pretty good though

[demontwinz]

i've read through the brake and suspension section .. most of the threads are consistent with Dr. G's statements.

[cssnms]

Below is a link to a good technical article written by a braking engineer.

PAD AREA


We have seen that brake torque is directly proportional to Piston Area, System Pressure, Friction Coefficient and Effective Radii and is not affected by pad area. Pad area and geometry are however important for several reasons:

1) Pad service life. Since pad material is consumed, an increase in pad area results in an increase in the time interval between pad replacements. OE designs often make slight sacrifices in pad life by including tapered ends for reduction of noise, vibration and pad taper. In some OE designs the pads on the two sides of the caliper are even shaped differently, with the inside pad being shorter in arc-length in the direction of rotation and wider radially than the outside pad for system design and integration reasons.

2) Heat dispersion and dissipation over a larger surface area and greater mass. Although in the case of a larger pad, the pad masks a larger portion of the rotor face, absorbing more radiant energy and shielding the area from cooling that may cancel any actual benefit.

3) Geometry: Since rubbing speed between the disc and the pad is greater at the periphery of the disc, the pad geometry will sometimes be designed to reduce the area toward the center of the disc. This is done in an effort to produce even temperature and pressure distribution across the face of the pad.

http://stoptech.com/technical-suppor...rade-selection

[cc_25]

Originally Posted by demontwinz

i've read through the brake and suspension section .. most of the threads are consistent with Dr. G's statements.

Yeah the reason why BMW says the 135 kit won't fit the 335 is becuase it's a downgrade in performance from the stock 335 brakes. That's a fact. Anyone who wants to fit it is free to go ahead, but you're reducing brake performance for superficial looks.

[andrey_gta]

Originally Posted by Dr. G

. The performance BBK is sitting in a box making for a nice footrest when I'm tired.

Slightly off topic. Can you comment on this in our PM. I'll send you one soon.
Thx

[MyF15+F85]

I have read " quiclky " what you guys have written here, and here's what I have to say.
I recently bought a 335i ( 2011 not like it makes a difference ) but before I bought it I have driven a feeeew different BMW products, so I just might have something to say about THIS topic.
After driving 135i with all of the options ( 6 speed manual ), I have felt like race car driver, easy to accelerate, but the BRAKES were a killer, I could literally feel my eyeballs pop out at a full brake test. ( even the M5 that I drove was not what I was expecting in comparison ) Now, I know that the car is lighter, therefore it is much easier to stop EVEN with less aggressive pads ( coefficient of friction ) Engineers at BMW spend hefty amount of research in order to provide a customer with a devilish toy ( 135i ),
335i even though it has a larger rotor ( which is made for a better heat dissipation since the car is heavier than E8X )
When I got my 335i I must say it was a bit disappointed with the brakes, but I new that sooner rather than later I will upgrade the brakes anyway, so I started to search the net. The easiest choice for me was the six piston from the 135i ( since I new the responsiveness of the car braking system )
but ..... the problem that I have is that the 135i calipers are RADIAL mount and ours E92 is a regular set up from the back of the spindle ( hub ) regular style if you will.
We can all go into a heated discussion of the surface of the pad, rotor weight, thickness, offset, diameter, and so on. YES there is a lot of issues and reverse engineering that goes into this project.
I was just wondering if the is a side to radial mounting bracket that someone already figured out. I would gladly buy it for as long that I would get a rotor, from a 535, since it has an aluminum hat ( center piece ) which reduces rotating mass and unsprang weight .... but that is just me.

So in summary I know for a fact that the 135 calipers will NOT bolt up to our E9X cars... I want to see what else comes out of this tread...

[Dr. G]

Originally Posted by myE70

I have read " quiclky " what you guys have written here, and here's what I have to say.
I recently bought a 335i ( 2011 not like it makes a difference ) but before I bought it I have driven a feeeew different BMW products, so I just might have something to say about THIS topic.
After driving 135i with all of the options ( 6 speed manual ), I have felt like race car driver, easy to accelerate, but the BRAKES were a killer, I could literally feel my eyeballs pop out at a full brake test. ( even the M5 that I drove was not what I was expecting in comparison ) Now, I know that the car is lighter, therefore it is much easier to stop EVEN with less aggressive pads ( coefficient of friction ) Engineers at BMW spend hefty amount of research in order to provide a customer with a devilish toy ( 135i ),
335i even though it has a larger rotor ( which is made for a better heat dissipation since the car is heavier than E8X )
When I got my 335i I must say it was a bit disappointed with the brakes, but I new that sooner rather than later I will upgrade the brakes anyway, so I started to search the net. The easiest choice for me was the six piston from the 135i ( since I new the responsiveness of the car braking system )
but ..... the problem that I have is that the 135i calipers are RADIAL mount and ours E92 is a regular set up from the back of the spindle ( hub ) regular style if you will.
We can all go into a heated discussion of the surface of the pad, rotor weight, thickness, offset, diameter, and so on. YES there is a lot of issues and reverse engineering that goes into this project.
I was just wondering if the is a side to radial mounting bracket that someone already figured out. I would gladly buy it for as long that I would get a rotor, from a 535, since it has an aluminum hat ( center piece ) which reduces rotating mass and unsprang weight .... but that is just me.

So in summary I know for a fact that the 135 calipers will NOT bolt up to our E9X cars... I want to see what else comes out of this tread...

The 135i caliper bolts right up if you get the carrier with it. The carrier is axial mounted and allows you to mount the radial caliper.
You can also use a custom carrier and bolt the 135i caliper up to an e46 M3 CSL rotor, this is what I tried out at the beginning of summer.

[MyF15+F85]

Just have read the previous post, well... I must say that this is a damn good way to upgrade your front brake set up. I would be interested in something like this myself then.... Rears would be a bit more trickier but not undo-able I have done some of those custom set up before ( on different make ). It worked out for me, but I must say that the cost of setting everything up from a scratch to a finished set up, noooot cheeaaap to say the least ( way too many variables to play with )
PS
If I find a cheap enough set of 4 calipers I just might make it work ( even for the I did it factor )

[Zebra99]

Lol @ all this nonsense.....

Hasn't anyone heard of the following sayings - they're said for a reason:

"Bigger is better"

"You gotta pay to play"

I dunno, almost common sense no?

[n52330i]

^^^

Wrong on this forum

"Cheaper is better"

"Dr G, never agrees with anyone and is always right"


I do not agree with your bigger is better comment!!

I just wish some people on this forum would speak with real life experience, not just what they read on Internet.

I hardly read comments as "I used" "I have seen" " I have tried".. Always just "I read on Internet, and Internet is always true".

Sorry for my rant

[Dr. G]

Originally Posted by n52330i

^^^

Wrong on this forum

"Cheaper is better"

"Dr G, never agrees with anyone and is always right"


I do not agree with your bigger is better comment!!

I just wish some people on this forum would speak with real life experience, not just what they read on Internet.

I hardly read comments as "I used" "I have seen" " I have tried".. Always just "I read on Internet, and Internet is always true".

Sorry for my rant

I backed up everything I said with cold hard facts, not because my friend who has a friend who's friend drives "racercars" said something.

Car forums just like any other forum are full of hype and myths. Visit a bodybuilding forum and it's the same crap.

I like to bring reality to light.

[n52330i]

Your right I guess......

[jim.e.]

Originally Posted by n52330i

Your right I guess......

From my experience, the BMW 335i brakes are better than the BMW 135i brembo...and yes I know first hand as I have the 135i BBK on my car and have driven a 335i.

People with 335i that swap the BMW 135i BBK are actually downgrading. A stoptech BBK or other is a different story.

Just give it a rest.

[Andy1991]

Not sure my comments is valid here.. But I have a different opinion though..

I have tried 4 combos:

1: stock brakes, stock rotors, stock pads - too soft on the track, overheated after 3rd lap at Cayuga(not because of the brake fluid)

2: stock caliper, DBA rotors, EBC red stuff brake pads
(It's a huge improvement over stock rotors and pads. It won't overheat on the track but the braking power is not consistent on the track after several laps)

3: BMW performance BBk in the front(tried couple sets of brake pads on the track, red stuff/HP plus/HPS) + DBA rotors(red stuff brake pads) at the back.
(I am VERY satisfied with this setup even on mosport GP. Braking at 230km/h on the straight is very confident, NO OVERHEATING issue at all)

4: brembo GT 6-pot 380mm/4-pot 345mm
(orginal ferrodo DS2500 is too soft. On the track not even comparible with performance BBK with hawk HP plus, but after swapping to pagid RS29 brake pads, feels 20% better than performance BBK)

Overall, performance BBK did a good job either on the track or on the road. I liked it and I think it's the best bang for the buck IMO.

PS: I spent 5000+km on the track with performance BBK so I think it's more durable than most of you guys think.

My car: E90 LCI 335xi

[n52330i]

^^

Thank you, I know for a fact the oem bbk is good also. They just come with a softer compound pad. If you change pad in the oem bbk, it will break as good as any stop tech brake kit (maybe better). If DumG understood breaks at all, he would know when piston diameters increase, the pressures decrease . This is why i dont understand why he quoted pressures. Actually sometime to tune breaks, pressures need to be lower so they don't lock up.


There is many variables , try the bbk and the original 335 breaks with same pad. Guaranteed the bbk will out perform (Just as Andy stated)

No fight for DrG, you are right so don't worry.

[Dr. G]

Originally Posted by n52330i

^^

Thank you, I know for a fact the oem bbk is good also. They just come with a softer compound pad. If you change pad in the oem bbk, it will break as good as any stop tech brake kit (maybe better). If DumG understood breaks at all, he would know when piston diameters increase, the pressures decrease . This is why i dont understand why he quoted pressures. Actually sometime to tune breaks, pressures need to be lower so they don't lock up.


There is many variables , try the bbk and the original 335 breaks with same pad. Guaranteed the bbk will out perform (Just as Andy stated)

No fight for DrG, you are right so don't worry.

All you do is try to post pathetic insults with no factual information to back up what you're saying. Andy posted his experience in a mature manner and that's the way to do it.

When you increase piston diameter the pressure DOES NOT decrease for the same given leg input, your pedal travel is what changes. When you increase master cylinder diameter THAT is when your line pressure decreases, so please learn your basics before you make insults.

You are right in the fact that you don't want to overwhelm your tires with your brakes, so you want to make sure the threshold of locking up your tires isn't reached, but it's a lot more complex then simply stating that. For ex: The porsche GT3 - in certain models ex: (2010 - RS) they significantly drop piston diameter and increase rotor size to provide a different pedal feel whereas on the carbon ceramic brakes they do an INCREASE in the piston areas.

Since you don't like to talk in facts let's talk experience:

Same pads were installed for both setups.

100mph-0mph braking time - 335i OEM brakes did better VBOX VERIFIED

Track in S.Ill - OEM brakes performed "ok" with upgraded fluid and lines - BMW performance BBK - Totally lost all brakes in a couple corners, my seals were melting and my rotors were cracking. I thought this was crazy so when I went to post on the forums I saw that a WHOLE BUNCH of people had the same experiences, furthermore multiple of those crazy people who goto the Ring in Europe agreed with me and told me they switched back to OEM brakes and will be getting a different BBK in the future.

Anyway, since you have no input why not just drop this so people can read the information and come to a conclusion rather than having to read genious comments like DumG.


By the way, it's BRAKES not BREAKS had to throw that in there.

[n52330i]

The 335 and the 135 DO NOT come with the same brake pad, Brand or Compound.

Sorry for some spelling errors.

[Dr. G]

As for Andy's experience the red stuff's are a street low dust setup so you can't expect much performance from them. The pads are one of the most IMP parts of the whole setup.

Even the HP+ vs. HPS pads - there is a HUGE difference between them. So using much better pads on the BBK will definitely skew results.

Either way, thanks Andy for posting your experience in a mature manner without trying to throw insults around. I still think you're crazy for selling the orange brembo's though HAHA, they look amazing.