[badass335]

Originally Posted by scott_uw

Taking a vendor at his word?

Shiv, your partnership with FFTEC shows a lack of ability or knowledge when it comes to certain things. Is it fair to belittle you for that, like attacking those who haven't worked with turbos or who only have experience with pushrod engines. It's not as though Terry has not learned. You talk as though you're the plateau of tuning or engine development while people at Magnus or Buschur would look at you the same way you do Terry.

Even Garry Kasparov was eventually dethroned by someone with less experience.

I'm curious on this? Is there a reason for this comment? Proof?

[335iseb]

Originally Posted by badass335

I'm curious on this? Is there a reason for this comment? Proof?

Yes here's a list of players that beat Garry Kasparov....some of which he insulted before playing them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...parov_in_chess

[themyst]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The ones that dont require injector upgrades and built motors in order to increase horsepower by 250%.

This is true. If it wasn't for the nazi ECU and direct injection, IMO the N54 is the closest thing to a Mark IV Supra TT we'll see in a long time.

I'm sure you know, but the flow capabilities of our stock injectors is more than enough. I mean, they're good enough to be recycled into the X5 M, right? The challenge is properly running them instead of this wideband bias trickery.

I think it's only a matter of time before Cobb gets all the tables and logic deciphered. Until then, the piggybacks do well with what they got. Heck, I'm running one without any issue.

[onesuperboi]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The ones that dont require injector upgrades and built motors in order to increase horsepower by 250%.

That's a smart answer. Thanks.

I believe HPF uses some standalone piggy back for the e46 my friend used AEM for his Honda. I haven't followed the tuning scene in general since this is the first car I've owned that drew my interest in increasing performance. So, I apologize for still being a newb.

But, from what I've read on this forum by other members is that it starts with piggys and ends up with flashes. I personally don't have a preference for either methodology as long as the results are the same and my engine is safe.

I was a bit worried with piggy's not controlling fueling and timing well, but with the progress you've made with REV 2.5. and 3 and the logs you've provided I'm not that concerned with these issues.

I'm still in the wait and see mode before I jump into running a tune on this car again. There too much drama on this forum to filter through to get to the information...

[themyst]

Originally Posted by onesuperboi

That's a smart answer. Thanks.

I believe HPF uses some standalone piggy back for the e46 my friend used AEM for his Honda. I haven't followed the tuning scene in general since this is the first car I've owned that drew my interest in increasing performance. So, I apologize for still being a newb.

But, from what I've read on this forum by other members is that it starts with piggys and ends up with flashes. I personally don't have a preference for either methodology as long as the results are the same and my engine is safe.

I was a bit worried with piggy's not controlling fueling and timing well, but with the progress you've made with REV 2.5. and 3 and the logs you've provided I'm not that concerned with these issues.

I'm still in the wait and see mode before I jump into running a tune on this car again. There too much drama on this forum to filter through to get to the information...

Your worries are legitimate. However, this platform is so overengineered we can get away with near bloody murder and not grenade the motor. I still want a properly working flash though for sure, even though the piggybacks work and work well for the most part.

[onesuperboi]

Originally Posted by themyst

Your worries are legitimate. However, this platform is so overengineered we can get away with near bloody murder and not grenade the motor. I still want a properly working flash though for sure, even though the piggybacks work and work well for the most part.

With REV 2.5, it seems that the CPS offsetting was improved to prevent misfires from happening and greater resistors for more fueling potential.

JB4 didn't have as many misfire problems because the tune wasn't changing timing to begin with!

Yes, I do realize that miscoded injectors may be the problem, but I haven't heard any complaints with misfires on the PROcede owners lately. CPS offsetting is still better than no timing control whatsoever.

I'm not sure how your JB4 G5 version is controlling timing at the moment.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by onesuperboi

With REV 2.5, it seems that the CPS offsetting was improved to prevent misfires from happening and greater resistors for more fueling potential.

JB4 didn't have as many misfire problems because the tune wasn't changing timing to begin with!

Yes, I do realize that miscoded injectors may be the problem, but I haven't heard any complaints with misfires on the PROcede owners lately. CPS offsetting is still better than no timing control whatsoever.

I'm not sure how your JB4 G5 version is controlling timing at the moment.

? The V4 misfires was due to the fact it needed more resolution. Technically, it was resolved without a hardware upgrade. The resolution was further increased due to a hardware change in rev 2.5 which allows for Shiv to reliably advance with CPS.

I don't run CPS since I'm running meth. The Procede (at least the public maps) actually advances ignition over the stock curve in the 5500-6000 RPM range. But the JB4 G5 does indeed have CPS to reduce ignition. I'm sure advancing with CPS is coming for the G5 board though. Too many 1M and 335is guys are quite unhappy with their stock timing curves!

Right now I'm just finding the fueling limits with a piggyback and a single meth nozzle. I think I found that limit to be 17.5 peak and 16.5-17 at redline. I surmise with a dual nozzle setup, I can push it quite a bit further without leaning out.

I had a long-winded comment on another thread regarding my thoughts of all this. Too lazy to dig it up though!

[themyst]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I agree that the Jb4 works as well as anyone can reasonably expect it to. The only comment I made was with regards to comparing Terry's tuning experience or mine or any other actual tuner on this forum. If Terry didn't have a product to emulate/copy, his product would be very different right now. This is a reflection on his relative inexperience when it comes engine tuning. Yes, he fiddled with his own LS1/LT1 as a pastime. Hardly what anyone would consider to be professional tuning experience. But just a few years ago, on this forum, he was asking me how a MAP sensor worked and how to bias a wideband sensor. I even showed him how to make is first voltage divider/JB1.

This limited understand of turbo system functionality was also disturbing once he got himself into the professional tuning business. He publicly claimed that it was possible to overspool a turbo during cruise. He also thought that the compressor inlet of a turbo operated under manifold vacuum. Things that anyone with basic tuning experience would already know. Yes, he's learning as he goes. All the while pretending to be an experienced tuner. He gets away with it because he is selling product to those with less tuning experience than him. And he gets away with it because he is clever enough to copy our products well enough to (unrightfully) claim equality. He make some mistakes along the way but is quick to come out with a board revision when the problems can no longer be controlled/masked. While he does this, he spends his day behind a keyboard (on the other forum) propagating misinformation and crying about what actual tuners are accomplishing and how they are accomplishing it.

Shiv

From Terry@BMS (I hope this is ok mods)
---------------------------------------------------------
Typing on an iPhone so I'll keep this short. Someone can feel free to cross post this over there.

Shiv, you seem pretty cavalier with some of those libelous false statements. More so than I would be. But a couple quick comments.

1) I've been designing automotive electronic gadgets and tuning since the mid 90s. One of my first products was ironically enough a map clamp type device for LT1 motors. This includes tuning for pay, ranging from flash tunes, to piggybacks to tuning stand alone systems. As of this point in time BMS tuners across all platforms are in use on something like 15,000 motors around the world. I'd gamble 2-3 times as many vehicles as you've tuned. After some of your fiascos (like the V2 update) I would not be so quick to make such comments regarding my ability.
2) I have a BSCS degree (what is your degree exactly again?) and prior to running this tuning business full time worked as both a software engineer and later in my career in various executive positions overseeing other software engineers and eventually hundreds of operational employees.
3) I do much of the forum marketing and tuning work but BMS is much larger than Terry. And the company we've built likely does 3x the revenue of your company while maintaining a much higher level of overall customer satisfaction.
4) When I entered this scene in 2007 I had little intent of designing a N54 tuning product. Only after witnessing your behavior and that you were charging $1300 for effectively what amounted to a map clamp did I decide to start the open source "Terry Tuner" project, of which the various circuits I developed were posted on e90post for anyone to use as they saw fit. When I posted these circuits you were quick to falsy take credit for them while at the time same insisting that the project could never work. Intersetingly, the resulting JB product became one of the most reliable and stable tuning devices of that era.
5) At this time I'm not going to go item by item disputing each false claim in terms of which of us brought which feature to market first but will happily do that at a later time when I have access to a full size keyboard. But suffice it to say there are plenty of functions we've pioneered that have been quietly added to your tuning feature list. And I'll admit some features we include you released first. Although, everything we're doing has been done on other platforms by others years before either of us.

[GeorgiaTech335coupe]

Where is that hide-behind-the-couch smiley face guy when you need him?!

[Fundahl]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaTech335coupe

Where is that hide-behind-the-couch smiley face guy when you need him?!

[Laguna Seca Blue]

Terry's message is funny. Who cares who makes more money? He mentions it as least three times.

Cartier has 500 bizillion times more revenue than my small jewelry company, but I can guarantee you that we provide our customers with better service and better crafted products.

What a joke.

[amclint]

Same old stuff, nothing new here...

[amclint]

Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue

Terry's message is funny. Who cares who makes more money? He mentions it as least three times.

Cartier has 500 bizillion times more revenue than my small jewelry company, but I can guarantee you that we provide our customers with better service and better crafted products.

What a joke.

Vishnu can't guarantee they provide better service than BMS

I won't go into which one is better crafted, suffice it to say that from the customer service aspect BMS and Cobb are in another league compared to Vishnu (assuming you go by past customers and what they say about the companies).

I can assure you both Terry and Shiv care who makes more money, being that both are in business and not just goofing off on a forum.

The only joke here would be if anyone actually took these kinds of threads seriously

[Laguna Seca Blue]

In terms of Vishnu's customer service, I know only what I've experienced. Shiv and his staff have always replied to my emails/phonecalls in a timely manner with pertinent information. I couldn't ask for anything more.

Anyway, this is the first tuner war thread I've been involved in, and it's been legendary. I'm going to stop now, but flame on my e90post friends. It's been an experience

[Laguna Seca Blue]

One last thing, then I'll stop I promise

Who makes more money might matter to them, but it makes no difference to us, their customers. For Terry to mention it several times in a message intended for us is odd.

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue

One last thing, then I'll stop I promise

Who makes more money might matter to them, but it makes no difference to us, their customers. For Terry to mention it several times in a message intended for us is odd.

One thing is for sure. With Terry in the mix, he has single handily brought down prices of piggybacks. Including what you paid for your proceed, that now has a vin lock. The vin lock was purely because of profits and slowing down the second hand market.

[335iseb]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I agree that the Jb4 works as well as anyone can reasonably expect it to. The only comment I made was with regards to comparing Terry's tuning experience or mine or any other actual tuner on this forum. If Terry didn't have a product to emulate/copy, his product would be very different right now. This is a reflection on his relative inexperience when it comes engine tuning. Yes, he fiddled with his own LS1/LT1 as a pastime. Hardly what anyone would consider to be professional tuning experience. But just a few years ago, on this forum, he was asking me how a MAP sensor worked and how to bias a wideband sensor. I even showed him how to make is first voltage divider/JB1.

This limited understand of turbo system functionality was also disturbing once he got himself into the professional tuning business. He publicly claimed that it was possible to overspool a turbo during cruise. He also thought that the compressor inlet of a turbo operated under manifold vacuum. Things that anyone with basic tuning experience would already know. Yes, he's learning as he goes. All the while pretending to be an experienced tuner. He gets away with it because he is selling product to those with less tuning experience than him. And he gets away with it because he is clever enough to copy our products well enough to (unrightfully) claim equality. He make some mistakes along the way but is quick to come out with a board revision when the problems can no longer be controlled/masked. While he does this, he spends his day behind a keyboard (on the other forum) propagating misinformation and crying about what actual tuners are accomplishing and how they are accomplishing it.

Shiv

Oh shucks don't be so modest now.

[Laguna Seca Blue]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

One thing is for sure. With Terry in the mix, he has single handily brought down prices of piggybacks. Including what you paid for your proceed, that now has a vin lock. The vin lock was purely because of profits and slowing down the second hand market.

Haha, ok maybe this will be my last post.

As a business owner myself, I do not begrudge Shiv or any entrepreneur for making a profit. I had no idea how complex these piggybacks were until i started doing a research into getting one. The REv3 literally must have taken Shiv thousands of man hours to develop. Frankly, I don't think the price he sells them at is high at all. If I'm paying less than I should becuase one of his competitors commited intellectual property theft and undercut him, that's not really fair, is it?

In that message themyst posted from Terry, he admits to having included features Shiv released first. However, although he claims that Shiv has done the same to him, he doesn't provide a single example.

When I finally decided to buy a Procede, it was after doing a lot of research. I don't have the time or the money (although i've spent almost the whole day at work on these forums today ) to try every single one.

For me, the choice was pretty clear (at least when it came to choosing between Vishnu and BMS) because of their backgrounds and the intellectual/technical arguements. Unless you're simply trying to save $300 on a $50,000+ car, I don't get why'd go for the BMS product. That's all...

[spool twice]

Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue

One last thing, then I'll stop I promise

Who makes more money might matter to them, but it makes no difference to us, their customers. For Terry to mention it several times in a message intended for us is odd.

he only mentioned it once from what I can read; response #3

Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue

Haha, ok maybe this will be my last post.



In that message themyst posted from Terry, he admits to having included features Shiv released first. However, although he claims that Shiv has done the same to him, he doesn't provide a single example.

Terry was typing from his i-phone and simply stated "At this time I'm not going to go item by item disputing each false claim in terms of which of us brought which feature to market first but will happily do that at a later time when I have access to a full size keyboard."

[spool twice]

Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue

Anyway, this is the first tuner war thread I've been involved in, and it's been legendary. I'm going to stop now, but flame on my e90post friends. It's been an experience

You do realize that this thread is over a year old and was bumped by a fellow forum member right? Wait until you see future saga's of these "wars"

[ianthegreat]

Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue

Haha, ok maybe this will be my last post.

As a business owner myself, I do not begrudge Shiv or any entrepreneur for making a profit. I had no idea how complex these piggybacks were until i started doing a research into getting one. The REv3 literally must have taken Shiv thousands of man hours to develop. Frankly, I don't think the price he sells them at is high at all. If I'm paying less than I should becuase one of his competitors commited intellectual property theft and undercut him, that's not really fair, is it?

In that message themyst posted from Terry, he admits to having included features Shiv released first. However, although he claims that Shiv has done the same to him, he doesn't provide a single example.
When I finally decided to buy a Procede, it was after doing a lot of research. I don't have the time or the money (although i've spent almost the whole day at work on these forums today ) to try every single one.

For me, the choice was pretty clear (at least when it came to choosing between Vishnu and BMS) because of their backgrounds and the intellectual/technical arguements. Unless you're simply trying to save $300 on a $50,000+ car, I don't get why'd go for the BMS product. That's all...

I really don't have the time to look them up, but I can assure you it has gone both ways. This thread is mild and much shorter than the past threads. Some of Scalbert's threads were great. Regardless of the people arguing back and forth, most of us learn a lot about the product and the engine in these.

[ianthegreat]

Originally Posted by spool twice

You do realize that this thread is over a year old and was bumped by a fellow forum member right? Wait until you see future saga's of these "wars"

It was bumped by a fanboy who coincedentally removed his post.