[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by cvc 22349a

With which core?

Hi cvc,

the sample unit will utilise their "Close Mesh Core".

PWR is quite adamant they will not produce an AT rad' without the use of their core upgrade, due to efficiency concerns.

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by eric-d

I am in for the radiator

location is OC california

please pm a shipped price and availability detail

cheers

Hey eric,

I could not send you a PM as you only have 2 posts under your belt, please let me know if you received the "visitor message" I left you.

Cheers,

Justin.

[cvc 22349a]

Originally Posted by Justin@ADVAN Performance

Hi cvc,

the sample unit will utilise their "Close Mesh Core".

PWR is quite adamant they will not produce an AT rad' without the use of their core upgrade, due to efficiency concerns.

Hmm, based on what you've previously written about that core, it doesn't sound suitable for a DD in warm climates. I'll pass and wait. I still think PWR or whatever rad co will find a pretty big market for the 335i, especially AT's with higher coolant temps, as cars approach 100k mi.

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by cvc 22349a

Hmm, based on what you've previously written about that core, it doesn't sound suitable for a DD in warm climates. I'll pass and wait. I still think PWR or whatever rad co will find a pretty big market for the 335i, especially AT's with higher coolant temps, as cars approach 100k mi.

Hey cvc,

this is what i said in an earlier post;

the Tech' at PWR recommended the use of their "Close Mesh Core Configuration", for vehicles that are not daily driven or for owners that live in a cooler climate.

Having said that;

They have not tested the flow rate of the BMW OE thermatic fan, I do not know the maximum CFM rating of the fan, nor does PWR.

That being said Peter has had a good look at the fan unit previously, in his opinion the assembly is quite large and "should" be up to the task of pulling an adequate quantity of air through the core at low vehicle speeds, to maintain reasonable water temps.

As I mentioned previously this is something we would have to verify.

That is why I asked the question;

Would you pay the asking price if we verified water temps are ok in stop-go traffic and we guaranteed fitment would be perfect?

I am just trying to gauge the current level of interest in this product, following the price increase.

If there are 4 or 5 members that will commit to a purchase, on the provision we have verified that coolant temps are ok in warm daily driven situations, we will go ahead and have PWR manufacture a sample unit for evaluation.

If no punters are willing to pay $1,245 for a rad', why continue the project?

Cheers,

JD.

[enrita]

Seems strange to me PWR has no interest getting an upgraded rad for AT test fitted and tested. They would basically be the only one in the market offering such a product....

[Orb]

Justin

What you have been stating is very much a contradiction so I am asking for some details. I am not making judgment what was said but rather looking for the facts so I can decide if this is going to meet my requirements. I am not interested in drama or repeated statements. A basic specification regarding detailed tube and fin sizing would be appreciated. Thus, I would not need to ask questions.

The close mesh core (low pressure drop) is nothing more than a finer pitch radiator from the standard core. Please stop implying that it is something else and confusing people further! The OEM radiator is a finer pitch core at about 6.8 mm with 50 tubes so the purposed design (close mesh core) is almost the same pitch to the OEM radiator. It is certainly understandable why they are recommending this design, and for me, doesn’t require further explanation. The addition cost is justified due to 30% increase in materials required just to be clear.

The assumption that the air flow may be restricted is valid but it’s an assumption and has defiantly gone on a tangent. You have an OEM radiator so you know what the available air flow/restriction area. It is not going to be difficult to transfer the information over to a new design since we don’t have a fan curve. You also have coolant flow rate and OEM radiator that can be used to get the total coolant cross section which can be applied to the new design. We have enough information to create a design but it may be on the conservative side with good engineering judgment unless someone wants to invest further time and effort into this.

The comments from the engineer are just that, and he did not answer the question, but instead stated obvious information regarding heat flux, pressure drop and that dimpled tube was a possible option to meet coolant velocity but you seem to not understand this?

For others, if you on the fence about upgrading the radiator and hoping some other company can do it you will be disappointed. PWR is the only company that has specific technology and available material sizes to enhance thermal performance for at these low volumes. One of the reasons for this is that the OEM radiator is actually a fairly good unit for high production so improving up on this is not that easy of a job.

Some basic design info that is easy to understand: http://www.arrowheadradiator.com/14_...utomobiles.htm

Originally Posted by Justin@ADVAN Performance

Hi Orb,

I do not think it's too much to ask, that you put a little faith in the engineering expertise & design knowledge of PWR.

Which is why given the volume limitations of the rad' and the requirement of a cross-flow core in lieu of the AT heat exchanger, they are insisting on using their "Close Mesh Core Configuration" to ensure their efficiency goals are meet.

Also do not be concerned about the radiator becoming "laminar" due to a lack of coolant turbulence, as they will be utilising a "dimple tube" in their design revision if they deem it necessary, following calculations of the coolant volume flow rate.

Below is a quote from one of their engineers, in response to your concerns regarding coolant volume flow rate and a possible lack of coolant turbulence.

"Our tubes are by no means ordinary or basic in design and we have features in the tubes that keep the coolant turbulent to ensure maximum cooling is achieved, as at the end of the day you are trying to give the coolant enough time in the radiator for sufficient heat transfer but also trying to make sure that the engine has a sufficient supply of coolant."

There is no doubt in my mind that "at speed" on the racetrack, the Advan/PWR AT rad' with the "Close Mesh Core" will perform very well indeed.

What they are unsure of is how well it will transfer heat at low air speeds, in stop-go traffic.

They have not tested the flow rate of the BMW OE thermatic fan, I do not know the maximum CFM rating of the fan, nor does PWR.

That being said Peter has had a good look at the fan unit previously, in his opinion the assembly is quite large and "should" be up to the task of pulling an adequate quantity of air through the core at low vehicle speeds, to maintain reasonable water temps.

As I mentioned previously this is something we would have to verify.

[Slidewayz]

Holy frijoles, over $1k for a radiator ?

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by enrita

Seems strange to me PWR has no interest getting an upgraded rad for AT test fitted and tested. They would basically be the only one in the market offering such a product....

Hey enrita,

I spoke to my sales contact at PWR again today, unfortunately they have no interest in producing an AT radiator at their expense, for the purposes of evaluation by Advan performance.

They are more than happy to produce a singular sample AT rad' in as little as 3 weeks, but it will cost Advan almost $1,200 for the "Custom Build" unit.

I would love to have the PWR AT rad' fitted to our 335i shop-car for testing and evaluation, but Peter is not prepared to put further time and money into the project, until we have a few members genuinely committed to a purchase providing the rad' tests well.

Cheers,

JD.

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by Orb

Justin

What you have been stating is very much a contradiction so I am asking for some details. I am not making judgment what was said but rather looking for the facts so I can decide if this is going to meet my requirements. I am not interested in drama or repeated statements. A basic specification regarding detailed tube and fin sizing would be appreciated. Thus, I would not need to ask questions.

The close mesh core (low pressure drop) is nothing more than a finer pitch radiator from the standard core. Please stop implying that it is something else and confusing people further! The OEM radiator is a finer pitch core at about 6.8 mm with 50 tubes so the purposed design (close mesh core) is almost the same pitch to the OEM radiator. It is certainly understandable why they are recommending this design, and for me, doesn’t require further explanation. The addition cost is justified due to 30% increase in materials required just to be clear.

The assumption that the air flow may be restricted is valid but it’s an assumption and has defiantly gone on a tangent. You have an OEM radiator so you know what the available air flow/restriction area. It is not going to be difficult to transfer the information over to a new design since we don’t have a fan curve. You also have coolant flow rate and OEM radiator that can be used to get the total coolant cross section which can be applied to the new design. We have enough information to create a design but it may be on the conservative side with good engineering judgment unless someone wants to invest further time and effort into this.

The comments from the engineer are just that, and he did not answer the question, but instead stated obvious information regarding heat flux, pressure drop and that dimpled tube was a possible option to meet coolant velocity but you seem to not understand this?

For others, if you on the fence about upgrading the radiator and hoping some other company can do it you will be disappointed. PWR is the only company that has specific technology and available material sizes to enhance thermal performance for at these low volumes. One of the reasons for this is that the OEM radiator is actually a fairly good unit for high production so improving up on this is not that easy of a job.

Some basic design info that is easy to understand: http://www.arrowheadradiator.com/14_...utomobiles.htm

Hi Mark,

whilst I appreciate your continued interest in the product, I suggest you speak to PWR directly in effort to obtain the specific information you require.

They may or may not wish to disclose specific details regarding the design of their radiators, but it cannot hurt to ask.

Steve Bartlett my sales contact at PWR can be contacted on +61 (0)7 5547 1600 during business hours Monday to Friday.

Whilst Steve is quite knowledgeable, he said he would be happy to pass you onto a design engineer to respond to your questions, if you require further detail.

Cheers,

JD.

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Hi Gents,

it would seem I may have given the impression that Advan performance has abandoned the Advan/PWR upgraded AT rad' project altogether.

It's not our intention to do so at all and I apologise if that was the impression I have left.

We are more than happy to rest on our laurels, until such time that a few more members have expressed a genuine interest in our product.

If 4 or 5 members would commit to purchasing the AT rad' on the PROVISION, that our heat transfer expectations are meet and it's suitable for a daily driven vehicle, we would have PWR complete a sample unit for thorough evaluation and testing on our part.

A $200 group buy deposit on the part of those guys wanting to buy the radiator, would be entirely refundable if the rad' under performed on the racetrack or was proven to raise water temps excessively in stop-go traffic.

However Peter is quietly confident the "Close Mesh Core" will not cause water temps to skyrocket, if the vehicle is daily driven in a warm climate.

The thermatic fan may have to work harder under those conditions, but it's quite a large unit and he feels it will be up to the task.

So I encourage anyone who is sitting on the fence and awaiting further testing on our part prior to purchasing the unit, please come forward and express your genuine interest in the AT rad' by committing to a small deposit.

If our design is proven NOT to be "a good thing" both on and off the racetrack, your initial $200 GB deposit will be fully refunded, no questions asked!

Regards,

Justin.

[Orb]

I got some pricing from PWR USA who you can order directly from. The 5970 is the all around core with 16 fins per inch. The 6216 is a race core with an intergrated power steering heat exchanger. Both are for a manaul transmission only.

PWR5970 - $735.00 Special Order From AU, shipping cost (USA) of approximately $150.00

PWR6216 - $788.00 Special Order From AU, shipping cost (USA) of approximately $150.00

PWR has no problem doing a 1 of custom radiator so I am going to get AT radiator made up. Expect to have it hand in about 5 weeks.

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Hey Mark,

your common courtesy and politeness are second to none.

Thank you for all your kind words and encouragement, it was very much appreciated...

Cheers,

Justin.

[cvc 22349a]

Originally Posted by Orb

I got some pricing from PWR USA who you can order directly from. The 5970 is the all around core with 16 fins per inch. The 6216 is a race core with an intergrated power steering heat exchanger. Both are for a manaul transmission only.

PWR5970 - $735.00 Special Order From AU, shipping cost (USA) of approximately $150.00

PWR6216 - $788.00 Special Order From AU, shipping cost (USA) of approximately $150.00

PWR has no problem doing a 1 of custom radiator so I am going to get AT radiator made up. Expect to have it hand in about 5 weeks.

With which core-5970?

[Orb]

Originally Posted by cvc 22349a

With which core-5970?

The AT will not work well with a MT core from what I can see so it is not going to be the same. First things is to see if we can get the tube flow cross sectional area similar to the OEM radiator (about 1100 mm^2 total) with the available tubing thickness. The coolant has to meet a specific velocity or you will have something worse than the OEM radiator. There are 3 fin heights so there is some room to change the number of tubes. At the end of the day, you goto cut up the old AT core for tube measurments or do flow and pressure measurements of the fan and pump.

I still think Advan is offering a very good deal but I am not willing to wait or take any risks at this point, so if this can be done, I will go ahead with a build.

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Hey Gents,

given the amount of time and effort myself and Peter have put into sorting out the fitment requirements for the AT rad', we are certainly keen to see an upgraded PWR unit installed into an AT vehicle, hence our $200 down "fully refundable" offer.

Alternatively we would also like to offer a prospective customer who purcashes the very first AT sample unit, a ONE-OFF purchase price which is "trade", less 20%.

If the purcasher pays for the rad' up front, we will test fit the unit to our AT 335i shop-car.

Once direct fitment is confirmed we will then thoroughly evaluate its heat transfer capability both on and off the racetrack, in particular assessing its stop-go traffic cooling properties, which may be a concern in warmer climates.

There is no doubt Mark aka Orb is "across" the various design recquirements of an upgraded rad' for the AT vehicles, I applaud his enthusiasm as he persues his own build.

However I have the utmost confidence in the engineering and design knowledge of PWR, I suspect they know what they are doing too, as I think I read somewhere that they build radiators for a living.

Cheers,

JD.

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Hi guys,

feel free to shoot me a PM if you would like to know the pricing, on our very first Advan/PWR AT sample unit radiator, which we'll be selling at "trade", less 20%.

Just to reiterate,

if we cannot confirm "direct fitment" for AT vehicles or our testing proves it to unsuitable for a daily driven vehicle in a warm climate, we will bear the cost and you will receive a full refund, no questions asked!

Cheers,

JD.

[Orb]

I decided to do my own custom AT/ DTC radiator. Unfortunately, what has be presented in this thread is far from fact so I am going to take any mystery out of designing a radiator. At the moment, I am gathering all the detail so will add more once I get things measured out. This design is not straight forward and will have to work through a few issues.

The design of the stock radiator is actually very good. It has lot attributes of high performance design and it not going to be easy to improve upon this. Since we do not have a lot of data on the pump and fan performance we need a solid base line of the old design. For the given data we will be constrained on how much we can change the tube and fin sizing for 42 mm core. The stock AT radiator design specifications are below.

• Core size – 345.0 x 600.0 mm
• Maximum Radiator thickness - 52.1 mm ( PWR is 51.0 mm)
• Fin per inch – 20 (0.1 mm thick)
• Fin type – Louvered
• Tube – 32.0 x 1.75 mm ( 50 tubes)
• Pitch – 6.85 mm
• Total coolant flow area ~ 1725.0 mm^2
• Tubes dedicated to AT/DTC transmission - 7
• BMW listed coolant pump flow rate 150 L/min
• Bosch Fan - 600 watts very high performance fan

On the left hand side of the radiator there is a wall just below the main coolant tube that blocks off 7 tubes. You can see a 14 mm hole in the lower part of the radiator that accepts an o-ring type fitting.

The RH side of the radiator uses a tuned control sleeve to bleed the transmission coolant flow. It looks like there may be some mixing with the main flow. I will have to take this a part the header tank later to do the calculations (CFD simulation) in order to find out what is required to duplicate this. It is not possible to know what is going on without disassembling the radiator header tank. Just like the left hand side the 14 mm hole in the lower part of the radiator accepts an o-ring type fitting.

There are several possible solutions to improve on this design. The close mesh core (6.65 mm pitch) design doesn’t look feasible at the moment as PWR doesn’t’ seem to have the correct tubing flow sections. The other candidates are 8.0-8.3 pitch with 43 tubes and 9.5-9.8 mm pith with 34 tubes. There engineer will get back to me with possible solutions give we have some real data now.

Next step is to 3D scan the header tanks and create drawing for PWR to create the additional feature for the 5970 manual transmission radiator. Given the measurement I have done so far there going to be several changes to the existing design.

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Hey Orb,

if your comment "what has be presented in this thread is far from fact" is in reference to the extensive work Peter and myself have invested into this upgrade, well I take reservation to that as it's uncalled for.

FYI,

you have not presented any information that we at Advan performance, did not know more than a month ago.

IIRC, you offered to purchase the intellectual rights to the R&D we had done thus far.

I strongly declined, not so much because I would not like to see a solution become available for all the Steptronic/DCT owners from somebody other than Advan, but more so because I had grown tired of your lack of common courtesy and condescending nature.

I was informed that PWR would not do a "Custom build" for this application without the use of their 6.65 mm pitch "Close Mesh Core".

If the PWR engineers have since reversed there original assessment, that was something I was not aware of.

I hope you succeed with your own project and I look forward to following your progress and reading your posts, but hopefully they will contain somewhat less fanfare than what usually accompanies your comments, on the subject of radiators.

Regards,

Justin.

[enrita]

I have cancelled my order since no solution was provided. I also did 4 laps at the nurburgring and temps were in check for my turtle driving so i guess for now i am fine with stock radiator.

[Orb]

Don’t waste people's time with your forum antics. You provided nothing in the way of any real information and it has been misleading at best, and in fact, it was just wrong. You did not even get the number of AT coolant tubes correct or do I need to point out more. You do not of even have a basic understanding of thermal management systems at all as you are unable to explain a single detail. Nothing wrong with that but stop the BS and projecting your own feeling of inadequacy. You’re not fooling anyone and further comments are not going to be responded to. Measuring up a radiator is not intellectual rights nor is it R&D. The whole exercise is simple and not taking more than a few hours. The only thing you have accomplished is wasting people time and purposing an unacceptable solution but you obviously can’t see this.

Originally Posted by Justin@ADVAN Performance

Hey Orb,

if your comment "what has be presented in this thread is far from fact" is in reference to the extensive work Peter and myself have invested into this upgrade, well I take reservation to that as it's uncalled for.

FYI,

you have not presented any information that we at Advan performance, did not know more than a month ago.

IIRC, you offered to purchase the intellectual rights to the R&D we had done thus far.

I strongly declined, not so much because I would not like to see a solution become available for all the Steptronic/DCT owners from somebody other than Advan, but more so because I had grown tired of your lack of common courtesy and condescending nature.

I was informed that PWR would not do a "Custom build" for this application without the use of their 6.65 mm pitch "Close Mesh Core".

If the PWR engineers have since reversed there original assessment, that was something I was not aware of.

I hope you succeed with your own project and I look forward to following your progress and reading your posts, but hopefully they will contain somewhat less fanfare than what usually accompanies your comments, on the subject of radiators.

Regards,

Justin.