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      05-09-2011, 09:48 AM   #221
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Some sort of shared solution would be great. Do you know how to do this without linking into google accounts? Sorry too much other stuff linked in there.
How about a separate account accessible by the public? I'll look into it.
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      05-09-2011, 12:12 PM   #222
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I just noticed this thread and thought I could chime in with some food for thought from my own personal experience.

I've been tracking my car regularly on the Nürburgring in Germany, and am also driving quite a lot on the unlimited Autobahn. My car is a manual transmission and I have the AR design oil cooler (mounted in front of the water radiator) plus the stock oil cooler.

I've never had a limp mode while driving or tracking. However, the Nürburgring is not very hard on oil temperatures even if you do hard laps, as it is a rather fast circuit and the engine is cooled quite well through the air; much better for example than on the Hockenheimring or the smaller Grand Prix circuit at the 'Ring. When doing hard laps, the oil temps rise until about 130 degrees Celsius (266 Fahrenheit). I would describe myself an intermediate driver, so there's probably still some margin involved in this.

When flooring it on the Autobahn and driving at speeds higher than 220 km/h for a longer period of time (for example several minutes), the oil temperature goes up very quickly to almost 130 degrees Celsius. If going beyond 250 km/h, it even exceeds 130 degrees and goes until approximately 135 degrees (275 Fahrenheit). It cools down fairly quickly once I go off the throttle.

Datalogs with the BT cable confirmed this. Although this is not yet in limp-mode territory, I'm nevertheless of the opinion that the AR design oil cooler is not in an optimal location. It partially covers the water radiator, thus preventing it from being cooled by airflow, and most probably heats it up as well (although I would have to document this phenomenon further with datalogging). That is probably exacerbated with AT cars as their heatload is bigger due to the transmission being cooled as well.

I've also had the AR design aluminium radiator in my car for a few months, until it developed a leak and had to be removed again. While I had it in my car, the car heated up much more slowly (noticeable in particular in winter), but didn't seem to gain in oil temperature resistance. I can only guess as to the reasons, but I do believe that it's at least partly due to the location of the additional oil cooler.

Looking back I believe that currently the STETT oil cooler (stage 2) with the modified thermostat is probably the best solution for an oil cooler, as it replaces (if I understand it correctly) the stock cooler with a bigger core and removes (or replaces) the stock thermostat (which also helps quite a bit I think).

A garage in Germany I know quite well have now also developed a full-aluminium radiator that has the same size as the stock radiator (so no more fitting issues as I had them with the AR design radiator), but can transfer much more heat due to its design. It's costly though (around 1000 EUR), which is why I do not currently consider installing it.

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      05-09-2011, 12:31 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post

Looking back I believe that currently the STETT oil cooler (stage 2) with the modified thermostat is probably the best solution for an oil cooler, as it replaces (if I understand it correctly) the stock cooler with a bigger core and removes (or replaces) the stock thermostat (which also helps quite a bit I think).


Alpina_B3_Lux
that is correct. The STETT OC sits in the right front wheel well like the oem design. It is just a larger, more efficient core. For guys like me that had no oem cooler, it is perfect. I really am impressed with its fit, finish, and performance.
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      05-09-2011, 01:28 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by UltraRacer13 View Post
that is correct. The STETT OC sits in the right front wheel well like the oem design. It is just a larger, more efficient core. For guys like me that had no oem cooler, it is perfect. I really am impressed with its fit, finish, and performance.
I may be able to contribute an interesting data point this coming weekend. Both Ultraracer and I maxed at 250F from our STETT stg2 oil coolers but he ran at 75-93F ambient w/MT and I was at 56-60F w/AT. Ambient on Saturday will be in the 70s so I'm curious to see if my oil temps will go north of 250F...
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      05-09-2011, 02:12 PM   #225
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Hey Alpina, interesting about your experience with your radiator. You must have had a prototype.

I understand your thermostat opens up earlier - 90 C? - than ours and euro cars run richer (cooler). US cars are emissions (leaner) tuned and the thermostat opens at 235 F/113 C
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      05-09-2011, 03:05 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
Datalogs with the BT cable confirmed this. Although this is not yet in limp-mode territory, I'm nevertheless of the opinion that the AR design oil cooler is not in an optimal location. It partially covers the water radiator, thus preventing it from being cooled by airflow, and most probably heats it up as well (although I would have to document this phenomenon further with datalogging). That is probably exacerbated with AT cars as their heatload is bigger due to the transmission being cooled as well
I am an AT car, with an AR design retrofit, and no OEM oil cooler. I have driven around on the city, and highways, and extensively logged water temps. I am not seeing higher water temps because of the AR design oil cooler location. I will take data at the track in 13 days, but I am not expecting to be supprised by this. I think the data we have gathered so far is strongly pointing to coolant/water ratio together with the presence or absence of a coolant additive is the biggest factor in controling water temps. The best temps so far seem to be seen with 100% water+coolant additive mix. Both the HP autowerks modified car, and ER 135/335 cars run with 100% water + motul mocool, even with their larger 3L radiators. Just food for thought.



Quote:
Looking back I believe that currently the STETT oil cooler (stage 2) with the modified thermostat is probably the best solution for an oil cooler, as it replaces (if I understand it correctly) the stock cooler with a bigger core and removes (or replaces) the stock thermostat (which also helps quite a bit I think).

Alpina_B3_Lux
There are positives and negatives of every of the oil coolers on the market, and I thought a lot about this, before i picked AR.

1. evolution race werks: total of 8 liters of oil needed each oil change, with fears of dropping oil pressure, because of the massive size. Totally blocked out front air brake ducts. Non-Setreb Cores. Complicated install.

2. Stett- wether you run with or without their thermostat, the oil isn't getting hot enought too boil off condensate, and water is getting into the engine, causing noise, and possible failure long term. It also blocks out the brake air ducts. Complicated install.

3. dinnan- perfect, and proven. Large setreb Core that doesn't block the brake air ducts. Very expensive. Complicated install.

4. VK motorwerks- out of buisness, no setreb cores. Complicated install.

5. OEM oil cooler- too small, although, does not block off the brake air vents, just like the dinan. Complicated install.

please note that I am not bashing any of these products. If anything, thanks go out to all the aftermaket oil coolers for their help. Just explaining why I choose the one I did. If I had to do it over, I'd still go AR

Last edited by Turkeybaster115; 05-09-2011 at 03:16 PM.
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      05-09-2011, 05:38 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterM1 View Post
updated again



Ultraracer, either you're one ultra fast dude or my reading of Spec Miata times on trackpedia is way off (or both)! Let me know what's the right number and I'll update the chart. Same with vwong
Peter,

I don't know if you'll ever get an accurate lap time on a Spec Miata on SOW since no organization uses it for W2W racing. It's more like people using HPDE for testing their car/setup. Anyhow, I asked the question on TrackHQ, here's what one guy said, http://www.trackhq.com/forums/f13/ty...003/#post62383.
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      05-09-2011, 05:44 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by PeterM1 View Post
BTW, I see where this chart is going and to your and jbass' comments, we'll soon need to list tires, brakes, suspension and boost mods... heck eventually someone will ask for driver weight and the answer will be NO!
I agree. Eventually, people will be asking for this type of info as well. As least, I'd like to know so I can gauge how far off (whether it's slower or quicker) I am since I'm still all stock.
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      05-09-2011, 05:59 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by vwong View Post
I agree. Eventually, people will be asking for this type of info as well. As least, I'd like to know so I can gauge how far off (whether it's slower or quicker) I am since I'm still all stock.
How about notes? BTW. I can set us all up with a Google Docs share. We can put the chart up there and add more extensive information.
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      05-09-2011, 06:02 PM   #230
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I am biased because I own the Stett stg 2. But I think this whole idea of it being too efficient and not getting the oil above 212 to boil off the water is total BS. It may not get above 210 every time I drive the car but if I drive for more than 15 minutes generally it gets to 215-220. I feel confident this is not a real issue and feel confident saying it is by far the best aftermarket oc option on the market for this car.
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      05-10-2011, 04:25 AM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
I am an AT car, with an AR design retrofit, and no OEM oil cooler. I have driven around on the city, and highways, and extensively logged water temps. I am not seeing higher water temps because of the AR design oil cooler location. I will take data at the track in 13 days, but I am not expecting to be supprised by this. I think the data we have gathered so far is strongly pointing to coolant/water ratio together with the presence or absence of a coolant additive is the biggest factor in controling water temps. The best temps so far seem to be seen with 100% water+coolant additive mix. Both the HP autowerks modified car, and ER 135/335 cars run with 100% water + motul mocool, even with their larger 3L radiators. Just food for thought.
That is an interesting point. I have never had issues with my water temps anyway (as indicated above), but thought this was either due to (i) the driving being not aggressive enough or (ii) my car being a manual transmission. I would certainly be pleased (considering I'm running the same oil cooler as yourself) if the location of the AR cooler is a non-issue. However, I'm still a bit sceptical that placing one hot core in front of another is a very good idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
There are positives and negatives of every of the oil coolers on the market, and I thought a lot about this, before i picked AR.

1. evolution race werks: total of 8 liters of oil needed each oil change, with fears of dropping oil pressure, because of the massive size. Totally blocked out front air brake ducts. Non-Setreb Cores. Complicated install.
I agree. That was also my point of view.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
2. Stett- wether you run with or without their thermostat, the oil isn't getting hot enought too boil off condensate, and water is getting into the engine, causing noise, and possible failure long term. It also blocks out the brake air ducts. Complicated install.
I do not think that the condensate really is a problem, but someone already mentioned that here. I would still go with their thermostate, though. And does it really block off the brake air ducts? I have to look up the installation pictures taken by FBIS again. That would certainly be a negative point, at least if one is tracking the car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
3. Dinan- perfect, and proven. Large setreb Core that doesn't block the brake air ducts. Very expensive. Complicated install.
Where does Dinan install the oil cooler? In the stock location (i.e. retrofit option with bigger core than stock)? As I'm located in Europe I already have the stock oil cooler anyway, which is why retrofit options are not of interest to me.

However, there's also the ALPINA additional oil cooler, which is installed on the driver's side and has - IIRC - the same core as the stock oil cooler, i.e. it simply doubles the stock capacity. Also rather expensive, though.

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      05-10-2011, 05:47 AM   #232
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Interesting points brought up here. Going through the different testimonials, I expect my car to be on the verge of oil temp induced limp modes at my next trackday.

My preference would be to swap the factory oil cooler for a more efficient core. STETT don't offer this possibility unless you replace the factory thermostat or delete it completely.

I wasn't keen on this, but as it seems their 180C thermostat is somewhat similar in range compared to the Euro spec thermostat. So this may be an option.

However I don't think the connections will be compatible to the AR OC I already have.

In this thread there are a few pics of the Dinan OC:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=528269

Looks huge compared to the tiny stock unit.
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      05-10-2011, 08:35 AM   #233
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What are your coolant temps when you guys are driving around? My coolant temps are 98-99C when I commute to work and up to 102C spirited driving, ambient temp 75-85F. At the track I easily reach 117C.

Last edited by Martin_hbg; 05-10-2011 at 12:12 PM.
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      05-10-2011, 12:44 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin_hbg View Post
What are your coolant temps when you guys are driving around? My coolant temps are 98-99C when I commute to work and up to 102C spirited driving, ambient temp 75-85F. At the track I easily reach 117C.
I tried that last Friday on my way home. Ambient temp was in the 90s. My commute was with traffic, and I saw the coolant temp as high as 105°C.
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      05-10-2011, 06:26 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
. And does it really block off the brake air ducts? I have to look up the installation pictures taken by FBIS again. That would certainly be a negative point, at least if one is tracking the car.

Alpina_B3_Lux
The brake air duct is removed alltogether, I actually have more flow to the brakes now that before with the stock oil cooler.

edit. I have more air flow on the right side.
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      05-10-2011, 06:32 PM   #236
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Spec Miata times updated

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      05-10-2011, 06:57 PM   #237
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Wow Peter. 250. I'm impressed. It looks like you're driving hard. On the brakes or on the gas, no short shifting (all the way up to 6000 and a bit more before shifting) right?

What is different about the Stett compared to the ER? Is it the thermostat making such a big difference?
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      05-10-2011, 08:40 PM   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbass524 View Post
Wow Peter. 250. I'm impressed. It looks like you're driving hard. On the brakes or on the gas, no short shifting (all the way up to 6000 and a bit more before shifting) right?

What is different about the Stett compared to the ER? Is it the thermostat making such a big difference?
I wonder if it is the louvered box the ER coolers come encased in. They say they don't reduce air flow, but that seems counter intuitive to me looking at them. Maybe the STETT's weakness is that it is open to debris in the wheel well. I need to check mine now, to see what it picked up at the track.
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      05-10-2011, 10:56 PM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbass524 View Post
Wow Peter. 250. I'm impressed. It looks like you're driving hard. On the brakes or on the gas, no short shifting (all the way up to 6000 and a bit more before shifting) right?

What is different about the Stett compared to the ER? Is it the thermostat making such a big difference?
Looks like you both push your cars pretty hard using the spec Miata times as reference but I would assume the type of track you are at could make a big difference in temps as well.
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      05-10-2011, 11:04 PM   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbass524 View Post
Wow Peter. 250. I'm impressed. It looks like you're driving hard. On the brakes or on the gas, no short shifting (all the way up to 6000 and a bit more before shifting) right?

What is different about the Stett compared to the ER? Is it the thermostat making such a big difference?
I want to collect a few more datapoints at higher ambient temps before I feel comfortable that the oil cooler solved the problem but yeah, it's a good start at 250F. I don't know if the thermostat makes a difference at the track, it opens almost immediately at 180F. Got a 2-day event coming up this weekend, I'll let you guys know how temps held up on Monday...

I got the water temp display working too (thanks Turkeybaster!), it's a shame the digits are so small, I doubt the gopro will capture that info, will need to look at the temps once in a while while driving.
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      05-11-2011, 01:04 AM   #241
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@ Alpina B3 Lux:

Are you able to post any info or provide a link for this aftermarket 'German' all-aluminum radiator that is a direct fit? I've got an AT, so this is of interest to me. Looks like AR dropped the upgraded radiator idea; wonder why?
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      05-11-2011, 04:17 AM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvc 22349a View Post
@ Alpina B3 Lux:

Are you able to post any info or provide a link for this aftermarket 'German' all-aluminum radiator that is a direct fit? I've got an AT, so this is of interest to me. Looks like AR dropped the upgraded radiator idea; wonder why?
There's no website for this (yet?), it's rather a custom piece that was made for a friend of mine (E92Fan who's a moderator of the UK forum here) and can also be duplicated for others.

I can however bring you in contact with the person who organized it all and has the connection to the shop manufacturing the radiator. He's the owner of a race team and a good friend, also a test driver for AMG and Porsche. Shoot me a PM and I'll give you his details.

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