[techlogik]

Originally Posted by enrita

The ECU is fully aware on the amount of boost running with GIAC and its fully capable of pull the right amount of timings necessary. We are talking about maybe 1-2 degree more timings added on top of the stock timings.
I was running this stage everyday on both 94 octane and 94 octane plus meth. No switching, no codes and the car never showed any knock activity. When the car felt the higher octane more aggressive timings was used .

But you are relying on the knock sensor to react to pull timing.

Where would a meth fail safe come in at this point?

Maybe I am missing something and need a technical explanation of how the meth fail safe works in relation to knock event and boost...anybody?

I'm sure it has been covered amongst several other threads...but another explanation here would be good.

I don't doubt you have no issues...it is just having the extra failsafe in place would be nice.

[335rrr]

Originally Posted by 335rrr

Chad Stett actually has done all the work on my car, I have STETT FMIC and INTAKE, I was gonna call him yesterday but forgot. Am gonna call today and ask about the secondary oil cooler. My car came with one already...

BTW what is the status on the BurgerTuning G4 JB3??

BUMP

[Penn999]

Originally Posted by techlogik

But you are relying on the knock sensor to react to pull timing.Where would a meth fail safe come in at this point?

Maybe I am missing something and need a technical explanation of how the meth fail safe works in relation to knock event and boost...anybody?
I'm sure it has been covered amongst several other threads...but another explanation here would be good.

I don't doubt you have no issues...it is just having the extra failsafe in place would be nice.

This is tune related, not a failsafe.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by enrita

again i say this... there is no need to run a failsafe on meth for GIAC STage 2plus since BOOST is still the same as the Stage 2 (16.5 psi max) and the only difference is a more aggressive timing table.

Even IF that was all fine and dandy, you still dont maximize the benefits of running meth on GIAC because you cant even take advantage of the increased ignition or extra boost that would normally be acceptable because of meth.

So........ its more advantageous for someone running meth to run a different tuning solution so they can run more boost and ignition and take full advantage of meth, and by no accident be able to run a fail safe too.

Not hating on Giac, but its still not the best solution for methanol kits.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by techlogik

But you are relying on the knock sensor to react to pull timing.

Where would a meth fail safe come in at this point?

Maybe I am missing something and need a technical explanation of how the meth fail safe works in relation to knock event and boost...anybody?

I'm sure it has been covered amongst several other threads...but another explanation here would be good.

I don't doubt you have no issues...it is just having the extra failsafe in place would be nice.

Let me try to clear a few things up for ya


A Meth fail safe atleast the ones most people run in this community, Read Flow (nothing to do with knock), when the amount of flow is lost it reverts back to a safer Map on the Jb3, commonly map 3. On the procede it reverts back to map 1 boost and its more conservative ignition.

Giac tunes are flash tunes, which have maps, these maps control ignition boost and fuel. They are pre-set.

A Giac tune wont increase ignition beyond those preset amounts and therefore isnt riding a knock sensor. (atleast in theory)

The only reason a failsafe is easy on a jb3 or procede is because its in communication with the tune to lower to a specific map that is made for just pump gas when the failsafe reads a value of flow too low.

Since Giac is just a flash tune, there is no way to adjust the map, as it only can run one map. ( I say that hesitantly cause I think you can switch maps now?) But even still there is no communication "port" between a Giac flash and a failsafe to revert to lower maps and or ignition.

Last but not least, if you see my post above a Giac tune cant take advantage of the FULL benefits of Methanol as you cant increase boost or ignition beyond the preset amounts.

[enrita]

Ok guys seems you dont get it (no offense)...
Jpslick you are right saying you wont take fully advantage of the meth kit to make big power since you wont increase boost as you can do with a piggy up to 18 plus psi and thats also why i would never run GIAC with my current upgraded turbos setup and meth.
The stage 2plus (aka Race) has different timings tables included into it (like the ECU has stock when for example you put in the car crappy gas ) so when the knock sensor threshold goes up a more aggressive timing table is used and when it goes down the std. STage 2 is used. Think about how the Procede ups the boost and lower timing correction depending on knock sensor activity.
The gains will maybe be around 10-15whp max (instead of a piggy which will probably yield with upped boost 30-40 whp) but also consider the added cooling which will of course provide more consistent power.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by enrita

Ok guys seems you dont get it (no offense)...
Jpslick you are right saying you wont take fully advantage of the meth kit to make big power since you wont increase boost as you can do with a piggy up to 18 plus psi and thats also why i would never run GIAC with my current upgraded turbos setup and meth.
The stage 2plus (aka Race) has different timings tables included into it (like the ECU has stock when for example you put in the car crappy gas ) so when the knock sensor threshold goes up a more aggressive timing table is used and when it goes down the std. STage 2 is used. Think about how the Procede ups the boost and lower timing correction depending on knock sensor activity.
The gains will maybe be around 10-15whp max (instead of a piggy which will probably yield with upped boost 30-40 whp) but also consider the added cooling which will of course provide more consistent power.

Not trying to be offensive is hard these days.

[techlogik]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

Let me try to clear a few things up for ya


A Meth fail safe atleast the ones most people run in this community, Read Flow (nothing to do with knock), when the amount of flow is lost it reverts back to a safer Map on the Jb3, commonly map 3. On the procede it reverts back to map 1 boost and its more conservative ignition.

Giac tunes are flash tunes, which have maps, these maps control ignition boost and fuel. They are pre-set.

A Giac tune wont increase ignition beyond those preset amounts and therefore isnt riding a knock sensor. (atleast in theory)

The only reason a failsafe is easy on a jb3 or procede is because its in communication with the tune to lower to a specific map that is made for just pump gas when the failsafe reads a value of flow too low.

Since Giac is just a flash tune, there is no way to adjust the map, as it only can run one map. ( I say that hesitantly cause I think you can switch maps now?) But even still there is no communication "port" between a Giac flash and a failsafe to revert to lower maps and or ignition.

Last but not least, if you see my post above a Giac tune cant take advantage of the FULL benefits of Methanol as you cant increase boost or ignition beyond the preset amounts.

Roger that.

Then, the failsafe is going to switch maps to the lower values/conservative values when flow rate drops below a specified point/value...but in the meantime, if the meth flow slows beyond the amount, then when knock occurs, you are relying on knock detection which should hopefully pull timing back...then around that time you will have a conservative map running and hopefully no damage has occured.

I'm just trying to understand the exact timing, or should I say, a flow chart if you will, of when meth stops flowing at the rate required then 1) knock will likely ensue, DME will pull timing back 2) around that time (after assuming?) the failsafe to the piggyback switches to the different map.

This I believe goes back (not to incite anything) to that old argument of running aggressive maps, riding the knock sensor, when meth stops flowing...how that is handled. This I believe was the entire blow up thread of engine kaboom, then Shiv/BMS/Mike/Terry and the methods they deal with tuning/meth/timinh/boost and how each achieves what they do.

I think I got it...thanks for that. If not, let me know what I have wrong or am missing.

[techlogik]

Originally Posted by enrita

Ok guys seems you dont get it (no offense)...
Jpslick you are right saying you wont take fully advantage of the meth kit to make big power since you wont increase boost as you can do with a piggy up to 18 plus psi and thats also why i would never run GIAC with my current upgraded turbos setup and meth.
The stage 2plus (aka Race) has different timings tables included into it (like the ECU has stock when for example you put in the car crappy gas ) so when the knock sensor threshold goes up a more aggressive timing table is used and when it goes down the std. STage 2 is used. Think about how the Procede ups the boost and lower timing correction depending on knock sensor activity.
The gains will maybe be around 10-15whp max (instead of a piggy which will probably yield with upped boost 30-40 whp) but also consider the added cooling which will of course provide more consistent power.

Ok, I think I got what you are saying also.

Based entirely off knock detection, the GIAC flash will adjust timing/boost similar to a failsafe meth telling a piggyback to switch maps. Makes sense.

My original post also was, at this time, there is no failsafe with GIAC in the typical sense of being able to monitor meth flow, and tell the DME to switch to conservative values. I guess again, this comes down to how you handle knock events, boost/timing as a tuner?

Procede has their way...JB has their way...GIAC has there way, but with no failsafe methodology at this time. Austin had mentioned they were looking into this though.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by techlogik

Roger that.

Then, the failsafe is going to switch maps to the lower values/conservative values when flow rate drops below a specified point/value...but in the meantime, if the meth flow slows beyond the amount, then when knock occurs, you are relying on knock detection which should hopefully pull timing back...then around that time you will have a conservative map running and hopefully no damage has occured.

Only the Procede right now will revert back to conservative boost and ignition. The idea of this is to avoid ALL KNOCK. Cause you are running boost and ignition values that are capable on pump gas only with no meth.

I'm just trying to understand the exact timing, or should I say, a flow chart if you will, of when meth stops flowing at the rate required then 1) knock will likely ensue, DME will pull timing back 2) around that time (after assuming?) the failsafe to the piggyback switches to the different map.
(Again the idea is to avoid any and all knock if the tune and failsafes are optimized accordingly).

This I believe goes back (not to incite anything) to that old argument of running aggressive maps, riding the knock sensor, when meth stops flowing...how that is handled. This I believe was the entire blow up thread of engine kaboom, then Shiv/BMS/Mike/Terry and the methods they deal with tuning/meth/timinh/boost and how each achieves what they do.

I think I got it...thanks for that. If not, let me know what I have wrong or am missing.

See BOLD...

Again different tunes achieve their boost and ignition different ways so we cant put all tunes and failsafes into one category.

The Procede will proactively reduce ignition to that of what is required of only pump gas and boost of ~13 PSI.

JB3 simply goes to lower boost when the failsafe finds low flow.

Running no failsafe is a different story, but if your tune ride the knock sensor and meth stops flowing, if the DME is not quick enough to respond, Houston you will have a problem. ESPECIALLY with someone running 19+ psi.

[enrita]

Originally Posted by techlogik

Ok, I think I got what you are saying also.

Based entirely off knock detection, the GIAC flash will adjust timing/boost similar to a failsafe meth telling a piggyback to switch maps. Makes sense.

My original post also was, at this time, there is no failsafe with GIAC in the typical sense of being able to monitor meth flow, and tell the DME to switch to conservative values. I guess again, this comes down to how you handle knock events, boost/timing as a tuner?

Procede has their way...JB has their way...GIAC has there way, but with no failsafe methodology at this time. Austin had mentioned they were looking into this though.

Not boost , only timings.

[themyst]

It boggles the mind seeing JB3 guys run DO7/DO10 nozzles on something as low as Map 7. Map 7 is a pump gas map @ 14.5 - 15.5 psi boost. IMO running those large nozzles on such a low boost level is overkill. There is definitely a benefit to doing so, but you could achieve the same result with less meth.

If you want additional cooling on Map 7, go with a small nozzle like a DO3 with a 50/50 mix. That'll be more than enough for this application.

If you want to utilize the meth properly at that nozzle size, you should be around 17-17.5 psi. I do know larger nozzles can support upwards of 19-20psi, but not recommended without race gas.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by themyst

It boggles the mind seeing JB3 guys run DO7/DO10 nozzles on something as low as Map 7. Map 7 is a pump gas map @ 14.5 - 15.5 psi boost. IMO running those large nozzles on such a low boost level is overkill. There is definitely a benefit to doing so, but you could achieve the same result with less meth.

If you want additional cooling on Map 7, go with a small nozzle like a DO3 with a 50/50 mix. That'll be more than enough for this application.

If you want to utilize the meth properly at that nozzle size, you should be around 17-17.5 psi. I do know larger nozzles can support upwards of 19-20psi, but not recommended without race gas.

For Jb3 guys, it makes sense keeping boost relatively low when running methanol. Trying to support 17+psi of boost with no timing retard triggered during no-flow conditions (ie, during boost onset and meth failure) is a bad recipe to follow.

Shiv

[techlogik]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

See BOLD...

Again different tunes achieve their boost and ignition different ways so we cant put all tunes and failsafes into one category.

The Procede will proactively reduce ignition to that of what is required of only pump gas and boost of ~13 PSI.

JB3 simply goes to lower boost when the failsafe finds low flow.

Running no failsafe is a different story, but if your tune ride the knock sensor and meth stops flowing, if the DME is not quick enough to respond, Houston you will have a problem. ESPECIALLY with someone running 19+ psi.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

For Jb3 guys, it makes sense keeping boost relatively low when running methanol. Trying to support 17+psi of boost with no timing retard triggered during no-flow conditions (ie, during boost onset and meth failure) is a bad recipe to follow.

Shiv

The flow based timing retard works great with the JB3. But if no flow sensor is used then I agree on keeping boost conservative even with meth.

Mike

[dlbrooks18]

great 1/4 mile time btw.. yea I agree with slicks you should be knocking on 11's.. or maybe run nitrous and meth with current map and you'll be in the 11's on street tires without needing to add more boost

[GarageKeptE92]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The flow based timing retard works great with the JB3. But if no flow sensor is used then I agree on keeping boost conservative even with meth.

Mike

What flow based timing, retard?

[bryce]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The flow based timing retard works great with the JB3. But if no flow sensor is used then I agree on keeping boost conservative even with meth.

Mike

Originally Posted by GarageKeptE92

What flow based timing, retard?

yea, is this something new for the jb3? i though it didn't have timing control or the ability to retard timing based on meth flow

[335rrr]

Originally Posted by dlbrooks18

great 1/4 mile time btw.. yea I agree with slicks you should be knocking on 11's.. or maybe run nitrous and meth with current map and you'll be in the 11's on street tires without needing to add more boost

Thanks bud, I feel that my

[Penn999]

Originally Posted by 335rrr

Thanks bud, I feel that my

It did, thats how they always end up. What else do you wanna know?