|
|
|
|
|
|
BMW Garage | BMW Meets | Register | Today's Posts | Search |
|
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum
>
Vishnu ST and Vargas TT BBQ Shootout
|
|
03-31-2013, 02:48 PM | #111 | |
Major General
196
Rep 6,136
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2013, 02:52 PM | #112 |
1748
Rep 17,960
Posts
Drives: A Lot
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA
iTrader: (0)
Garage List 2018 Ducati Panigal ... [0.00]
2016 Mazda CX5 [0.00] 2017 Aprilia Tuono ... [0.00] 2019 BMW M2 Competi ... [0.00] 2015 BMW M5 Competi ... [10.00] 2016 Ducati XDiavel S [0.00] 2016 AMG GT S [0.00] 2011 Ferrari 458 It ... [0.00] 2017 Charger Hellcat [0.00] 2015 KTM Super Duke ... [0.00] 2016 KTM RC390 [0.00] |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2013, 02:59 PM | #113 | |
Banned
137
Rep 1,202
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2013, 03:02 PM | #114 |
1748
Rep 17,960
Posts
Drives: A Lot
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA
iTrader: (0)
Garage List 2018 Ducati Panigal ... [0.00]
2016 Mazda CX5 [0.00] 2017 Aprilia Tuono ... [0.00] 2019 BMW M2 Competi ... [0.00] 2015 BMW M5 Competi ... [10.00] 2016 Ducati XDiavel S [0.00] 2016 AMG GT S [0.00] 2011 Ferrari 458 It ... [0.00] 2017 Charger Hellcat [0.00] 2015 KTM Super Duke ... [0.00] 2016 KTM RC390 [0.00] |
Yes Tony, you are missing somethings. Please re-read the last few posts.
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2013, 03:03 PM | #115 | |
Major General
196
Rep 6,136
Posts |
Quote:
I appreciate that you (Tony) are going to be monitoring EGT's with your prototype kit. It really shows who is taking the time to have their hardware properly tuned. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2013, 03:06 PM | #116 |
Banned
137
Rep 1,202
Posts |
I read all the posts. No pretty sure I am not, there is the graph, there are the numbers. Seems pretty Straight forward, until you start your magic wand waving. When you have the "other" numbers along with a video. Please post them up so we can all see, or we can wait and video us both running on the dyno back to back. Thank you, going back to Easter now. Cheers..
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2013, 03:18 PM | #117 |
1748
Rep 17,960
Posts
Drives: A Lot
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA
iTrader: (0)
Garage List 2018 Ducati Panigal ... [0.00]
2016 Mazda CX5 [0.00] 2017 Aprilia Tuono ... [0.00] 2019 BMW M2 Competi ... [0.00] 2015 BMW M5 Competi ... [10.00] 2016 Ducati XDiavel S [0.00] 2016 AMG GT S [0.00] 2011 Ferrari 458 It ... [0.00] 2017 Charger Hellcat [0.00] 2015 KTM Super Duke ... [0.00] 2016 KTM RC390 [0.00] |
Things are a lot less dramatic when people take the time to read AND understand what is being said. Forming an opinion about someone and then (mis)interpreting their words to reinforce said opinion is always going to result in bickering. And those who can't talk tech, like to bicker I suppose.
Shiv |
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2013, 03:23 PM | #118 | |
Major General
196
Rep 6,136
Posts |
Quote:
Last edited by E90Company; 03-31-2013 at 03:28 PM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2013, 03:32 PM | #119 | |
1748
Rep 17,960
Posts
Drives: A Lot
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA
iTrader: (0)
Garage List 2018 Ducati Panigal ... [0.00]
2016 Mazda CX5 [0.00] 2017 Aprilia Tuono ... [0.00] 2019 BMW M2 Competi ... [0.00] 2015 BMW M5 Competi ... [10.00] 2016 Ducati XDiavel S [0.00] 2016 AMG GT S [0.00] 2011 Ferrari 458 It ... [0.00] 2017 Charger Hellcat [0.00] 2015 KTM Super Duke ... [0.00] 2016 KTM RC390 [0.00] |
Quote:
If I have EGT data, there was obviously an EGT probe installed (pre-turbine in manifold). Anything else you'd like to know? |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2013, 03:36 PM | #120 | |
1748
Rep 17,960
Posts
Drives: A Lot
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA
iTrader: (0)
Garage List 2018 Ducati Panigal ... [0.00]
2016 Mazda CX5 [0.00] 2017 Aprilia Tuono ... [0.00] 2019 BMW M2 Competi ... [0.00] 2015 BMW M5 Competi ... [10.00] 2016 Ducati XDiavel S [0.00] 2016 AMG GT S [0.00] 2011 Ferrari 458 It ... [0.00] 2017 Charger Hellcat [0.00] 2015 KTM Super Duke ... [0.00] 2016 KTM RC390 [0.00] |
Quote:
Last edited by OpenFlash; 03-31-2013 at 03:42 PM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2013, 03:42 PM | #121 | ||
Major General
196
Rep 6,136
Posts |
Quote:
Quote:
Sir, i'm just trying to see data and factual information about EGT's on your kit, that is all. I'm just not sure why it is so difficult to see this from you, but it's very easy to speculate about another vendor's EGT's. This is a technical discussion board after all, where data should be shared. Edit: LOL at the pic! |
||
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2013, 03:45 PM | #122 | |
2020 Z4 M40i - 2022 M4C Convt
3131
Rep 5,264
Posts
Drives: 2020 Z4 M40i - 2022 M4C Convrt
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Raleigh, NC - OIB, NC
iTrader: (0)
Garage List 1965 COBRA (FFR rep ... [8.57]
2023 Jeep Wrangler ... [9.50] 2009 Yamaha V-Star [0.00] Cars 2-BMW, 2-FORD, ... [0.00] 2023 Ford Expeditio ... [0.00] 2020 Z4 M40i [10.00] 2022 BMW M4C [7.25] 1998 FORD Ranger 4X4 [0.00] |
Quote:
Shiv on the other hand has not give anyone a basic yes or no about using the sensors, if yes where are they located & what the readings were.
__________________
Kevin
Dravit Gray, Black Leather, Moonlight Roof, Red Calipers 2022 M4C - 2020 Z4 M40i - 2023 FORD Expedition XLT Max 4X4 400BHP - 2009 V-Star - 1998 Ranger 4X4 5MT - 1965 Cobra (R) 5MT - 2023 Jeep Wrangler Sport S 6MT Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 03-31-2013 at 04:09 PM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2013, 03:54 PM | #123 | |
Colonel
249
Rep 2,202
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2013, 04:08 PM | #125 | |
1748
Rep 17,960
Posts
Drives: A Lot
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA
iTrader: (0)
Garage List 2018 Ducati Panigal ... [0.00]
2016 Mazda CX5 [0.00] 2017 Aprilia Tuono ... [0.00] 2019 BMW M2 Competi ... [0.00] 2015 BMW M5 Competi ... [10.00] 2016 Ducati XDiavel S [0.00] 2016 AMG GT S [0.00] 2011 Ferrari 458 It ... [0.00] 2017 Charger Hellcat [0.00] 2015 KTM Super Duke ... [0.00] 2016 KTM RC390 [0.00] |
Quote:
I'm not running for president here. Just a tuner. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2013, 04:56 PM | #126 |
Lieutenant
406
Rep 574
Posts |
I never really post here. I feel you guys are kinda leading everyone here to incorrect conclusions with the MBT vs Timing vs Boost vs EGT stuff imo.
Granted, Shiv is absolutely right, but there is more to the story than he is going into (as usual imo). I'll try to be brief and simple: Ideally you have timing for MBT with an octane that can support it. This will produce the lowest EGT for whatever combination you are running, and the highest thermal efficiency as the expanding gas will be best utilized to push the piston down. Decrease timing, and the combustion happens later, thus the gas expansion is less efficient, and EGT's go up.... BUT, this isn't necessarily bad for the engine as lots of the high EGT measured is combustion occurring in the manifold itself. Read- helping spool a turbo (or premature wear I guess). Increase timing further from MBT, and the combustion happens earlier. Two things can happen here--- DETONATION, because the increasing pressure while the piston is still traveling up causes other pockets of aircharge to ignite. You'll actually see EGT go DOWN because the piston heads are absorbing lots of this heat (not good). Or, OVERADVANCE, which will not increase power due to a low thermal efficiency (not catching the expanding gas peak pressure when the piston is ready for it), thus will also increase EGT due to a more complete burn outside of the thermal efficiency zone, and straining the engine cooling system more. In essence, hitting MBT timing helps maximize thermal efficiency, and lower EGT's. Running less advance generates heat, but much of this is "afterburn" so to speak in the exhaust. Not a huge deal. Running too much advance can cause detonation, lowering EGT but for bad reasons, or overadvance, lowering thermal efficiency and increasing EGT and thermal stress inside the cylinder. You can lower the effects of high EGT on the cooling system and reduce octane effects by increasing the engine VE with bigger turbos, better manifolds, headwork, intercoolers, richer AFR's, E85, water injection, etc. I've said it before and I'll say it again, a gasoline engine is a heat engine. Nothing more, nothing less. You can choose to generate and deal with this heat in a variety of fashions, and when/where this heat is generated can also be controlled. EGT numbers are NOT the end all/be all, there are other things that should be taken into considerations. |
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2013, 05:09 PM | #127 | |
2020 Z4 M40i - 2022 M4C Convt
3131
Rep 5,264
Posts
Drives: 2020 Z4 M40i - 2022 M4C Convrt
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Raleigh, NC - OIB, NC
iTrader: (0)
Garage List 1965 COBRA (FFR rep ... [8.57]
2023 Jeep Wrangler ... [9.50] 2009 Yamaha V-Star [0.00] Cars 2-BMW, 2-FORD, ... [0.00] 2023 Ford Expeditio ... [0.00] 2020 Z4 M40i [10.00] 2022 BMW M4C [7.25] 1998 FORD Ranger 4X4 [0.00] |
Quote:
Show & Tell is always better than just Tell when things get interesting between vendors. I think these competing claims threads need some hard visual support of a specific position before they are accepted as fact. Others may feel differently.
__________________
Kevin
Dravit Gray, Black Leather, Moonlight Roof, Red Calipers 2022 M4C - 2020 Z4 M40i - 2023 FORD Expedition XLT Max 4X4 400BHP - 2009 V-Star - 1998 Ranger 4X4 5MT - 1965 Cobra (R) 5MT - 2023 Jeep Wrangler Sport S 6MT |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2013, 05:27 PM | #128 | |||
1748
Rep 17,960
Posts
Drives: A Lot
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA
iTrader: (0)
Garage List 2018 Ducati Panigal ... [0.00]
2016 Mazda CX5 [0.00] 2017 Aprilia Tuono ... [0.00] 2019 BMW M2 Competi ... [0.00] 2015 BMW M5 Competi ... [10.00] 2016 Ducati XDiavel S [0.00] 2016 AMG GT S [0.00] 2011 Ferrari 458 It ... [0.00] 2017 Charger Hellcat [0.00] 2015 KTM Super Duke ... [0.00] 2016 KTM RC390 [0.00] |
V8bait,
First, i'd like to thank you for contributing to a technical discussion. It's great and it benefits everyone reading. Comments below... Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Just my 2c, Shiv |
|||
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2013, 06:10 PM | #129 |
Major
68
Rep 1,432
Posts |
Its nice to notice that some vendors such as Shiv and Rob understand both the tuning and hardware and don't just try to sell parts. Tuners in the know agree on them as well.
Haters who can't contribute should go back to their own drama forum. |
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2013, 06:34 PM | #130 | |
1748
Rep 17,960
Posts
Drives: A Lot
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA
iTrader: (0)
Garage List 2018 Ducati Panigal ... [0.00]
2016 Mazda CX5 [0.00] 2017 Aprilia Tuono ... [0.00] 2019 BMW M2 Competi ... [0.00] 2015 BMW M5 Competi ... [10.00] 2016 Ducati XDiavel S [0.00] 2016 AMG GT S [0.00] 2011 Ferrari 458 It ... [0.00] 2017 Charger Hellcat [0.00] 2015 KTM Super Duke ... [0.00] 2016 KTM RC390 [0.00] |
Quote:
And Mr. Vargas, you may want to learn how to make what you believe to be a point without insulting someone. Calling me his "boy" or telling him his post makes no sense reveals more about yourself than anything else. Last edited by OpenFlash; 03-31-2013 at 06:41 PM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2013, 06:42 PM | #131 | |
Banned
137
Rep 1,202
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-31-2013, 06:43 PM | #132 | |
Lieutenant
406
Rep 574
Posts |
Quote:
I see what you are saying here though. More air/fuel in a cylinder gives you more potential energy during the combustion event, and this energy must be dealt with somehow. You've made this point throughout the thread and it's critical no doubt. Just remember, that the total (in essence) EGT is a sum of heat leftover from the previous combustion event (decreases with higher VE) + wasted heat from current combustion event (which increases with VE), and that the ladder form is the least destructive to the engine when due to retarded timing. Now if you want to look at it from a turbo life expectancy well there's really no argument there (heat and pressure as you say), but this is looking at safe power for the engine IIRC. EGT is a number. How it's generated, and thus the analysis, is key for engine life. Some things, like turbo's, O2's, etc really only care about the number, but not everything is about the turbo. On your ST, I would presume EGT plays a much larger role due to the O2 placement and closed loop nature of things. But for this build, EGT is more just a stress for the turbines in this regard. My $0.02c |
|
Appreciate
0
|
Bookmarks |
|
|