[bNks334]

Originally Posted by Captain Canuck

Do IAT's on the N55 rise way faster than on the N54? None of the IC's in the links above are performing well compared to decent N54 logs. Is the difference between the 2 engines that big?

This seems to be exactly the issue. I noticed the same thing that all the cars running at ambient were N54's.

On my N55, temps can fluctuate up to 10f within seconds from being on throttle to lifting off throttle (15f over ambient shooting to 25f over while on the highway). Running so high over ambient doesn't seem to have anything to do with the intercooler being inefficient, per logs.

It seems that the intake on the N55 is wrapped over the turbo and the engine causing heat soak. I tried wrapping everything in aluminum tape rated up to 260f ($7 at Walmart). I saw a ~5f drop in IAT's. I would be willing to bet that if I used the more expensive tape that's rated for 850f direct heat and spikes of 2000f ($20 a roll for a measly 1.5"x15ft) there would be even more of a dramatic decrease in IAT's. The intake pipe that is right above the turbo gets HOTT.




The other question is, why does the ETS core appear to perform a bit better? If you ask me it has less to do with it being a brand name "high quality" intercooler and more to do with the fact that it is NOT a stepped core.

Why are we buying intercoolers with a stepped design anyway... is it for the looks of having a big shiny intercooler? I doubt that step section does much at all. All it does it absorb heat from the radiator, which is running 240f coolant through it. You are also decreasing the efficiency of your radiator by blocking it. Now that I think about it, the step design is a lose/lose from a performance standpoint. All it does is inflate the surface area numbers for vendors as a selling point.

I think those two things right there are why IAT's are higher for certain 5" brands of intercoolers (almost all of them since they are all stepped) and for N55's in general...

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by Yournamehere90

I don't want to get into this shit show argument, but I want to add something. The 5" VRSF is terrible as well. As mentioned before, almost all intercoolers are made in China for the lowest bid. For those arguing about fun density, grab a ruler and a camera. That will prove more than words.

Below is a datalogging I recorded last month. VRSF 5" stepped, roughly 19 psi, and 90 degree ambient. In 3rd gear it rose 25 degrees, and at the top of 4th it had risen 59 degrees over the starting point. Not exactly good, correct? I won't even mention the fitment issues (which weren't mentioned until well after I purchased and installed).

http://www.datazap.me/u/yournamehere90/mhd-e40-71

Thanks, I appreciate you taking the time to post an honest data log.

[mex2309]

Agree wit bNks334. Usually similar products from China are the same product, even at times manufactured in the same factory. Take the YETI cooler products, Made in China. You can buy the Exact same thing in Walmart for 1/3 of the price. Guess what, same damn thing. It's easier to make the exact same thing, stick a different logo, than reverse engineer it to make it better, THAT's the Chinese way.

I know this is Completely different products but the principle still applies.

Thanks to bNks334 for posting logical data and re-affirming this. Again, VRSF might me a hair better, (or a hair shittier) BUT for most people not tracking their cars and just wanting them to breathe a little more there is NO real world DIFFERENCE.

I see myself buying an Arm Motorsports intercooler in the near future.That's just me. I don't judge either way if you buy a different product, its your money and personal satisfaction at the end of the day.

[b1mmr]

Originally Posted by bNks334

This seems to be exactly the issue. I noticed the same thing that all the cars running at ambient were N54's.

On my N55, temps can fluctuate up to 10f within seconds from being on throttle to lifting off throttle (15f over ambient shooting to 25f over while on the highway). Running so high over ambient doesn't seem to have anything to do with the intercooler being inefficient, per logs.

It seems that the intake on the N55 is wrapped over the turbo and the engine causing heat soak. I tried wrapping everything in aluminum tape rated up to 260f ($7 at Walmart). I saw a ~5f drop in IAT's. I would be willing to bet that if I used the more expensive tape that's rated for 850f direct heat and spikes of 2000f ($20 a roll for a measly 1.5"x15ft) there would be even more of a dramatic decrease in IAT's. The intake pipe that is right above the turbo gets HOTT.




The other question is, why does the ETS core appear to perform a bit better? If you ask me it has less to do with it being a brand name "high quality" intercooler and more to do with the fact that it is NOT a stepped core.

Why are we buying intercoolers with a stepped design anyway... is it for the looks of having a big shiny intercooler? I doubt that step section does much at all. All it does it absorb heat from the radiator, which is running 240f coolant through it. You are also decreasing the efficiency of your radiator by blocking it. Now that I think about it, the step design is a lose/lose from a performance standpoint. All it does is inflate the surface area numbers for vendors as a selling point.

I think those two things right there are why IAT's are higher for certain 5" brands of intercoolers (almost all of them since they are all stepped) and for N55's in general...

good to see pressure applied to vendors.. in general I agree with everything you said.

[b1mmr]

my favorite part is where the vendors tell us to do the tests because they won't do it themselves.. have enough pride in your product to put it up to the test instead of saying Joe blow has iat's of 90f .. little do we know Joe blow lives in Antarctica lol

[WTF?]

I will say that I have a N54......and I NEVER see the high AIT's that are always posted on here, not even close and I live in Houston. I get no timing pulls at all due to inlet air temp with the stock intercooler. I see no reason to even upgrade with stock turbo chargers. Your Results May Vary!

[TrollToll]

Originally Posted by WTF?

I will say that I have a N54......and I NEVER see the high AIT's that are always posted on here, not even close and I live in Houston. I get no timing pulls at all due to inlet air temp with the stock intercooler. I see no reason to even upgrade with stock turbo chargers. Your Results May Vary!

If you are in Houston and are not seeing high iats then you must not be running much boost.

[WTF?]

Originally Posted by Yournamehere90

If you are in Houston and are not seeing high iats then you must not be running much boost.

Inlets, Downpipes, Chargepipe.........Map 5.....with no timing corrections or pulls......18lbs pretty damn steady.

Please don't generalize because YOU may have issues and I don't.

[NoSlow5oh]

Originally Posted by WTF?

Inlets, Downpipes, Chargepipe.........Map 5.....with no timing corrections or pulls......18lbs pretty damn steady.

Please don't generalize because YOU may have issues and I don't.

Logs?

[WTF?]

LOL.....was waiting for that. I have a phone full of them.......BMS Bluetooth....everytime over 50 percent throttle. I will download the crap to put it on here.....I'm getting too old and bored with this stuff. I should just stop talking or giving advice because no matter what I show it won't change any minds at all. I will try to post one with the meth on, and show why intercoolers are irrelevant in 2016.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Obviously IAT with meth will be different then those without... not much a comparison.

Was running meth since 2009 on this platform on stock FMIC for a while but Meth is not for amateurs/everyone.

[bNks334]

Hey, he's been helpful lol no need to get into a fight about nothing.

Personally, I just can't see myself ever being comfortable depending on methanol injection on track. Too risky.

[WTF?]

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

Obviously IAT with meth will be different then those without... not much a comparison.

Was running meth since 2009 on this platform on stock FMIC for a while but Meth is not for amateurs/everyone.

Did you even read what I posted? One WITH meth and one WITHOUT meth.

And I disagree....Meth is idiotproof these days, and if you have been running it for so long, how come you are not advising these guys to run -20 W/W fluid instead, if meth is so bad? Even lowly WW fluid trump any intercooler ever built.

Maybe you have been doing it wrong since 2009, kinda looks like it to me.

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by WTF?

Did you even read what I posted? One WITH meth and one WITHOUT meth.

And I disagree....Meth is idiotproof these days, and if you have been running it for so long, how come you are not advising these guys to run -20 W/W fluid instead, if meth is so bad? Even lowly WW fluid trump any intercooler ever built.

Maybe you have been doing it wrong since 2009, kinda looks like it to me.

What happens when your meth slashes around mid 1.3g turn and you lose flow? Also, the 5gallon tank of meth you'd need to make it through an entire 25min track session would weight more than a 7+" intercooler.

Would be nice to delete the intercooler and throw the weight into the trunk, but it's just not safe lol

[WTF?]

I understand what you are saying.....but I will tell you this. Most of what you are saying is theory. I have run the stuff on everything I drive, even NA cars. Never had a slosh problem.

On a 335i just run an ebay el cheapo no failsafe design, and run map 5. If it doesn't spray, then map 5 will autotune exactly like numerous cars do any ways and lower boost and pull timing. No harm done. Not all cars are running JB4's, but I think the vendors should share this information if they understand it, instead of just saying "Its Bad", and not letting the uniformed make educated decisions. Meth isn't the engine killer that it is made out to be by a long shot. And, 50/50 Water/Meth is just as good if not better than 100 meth for 99 percent of the public, so you could just run that, or even 100 percent destilled water, and watch your IAT's plummet with absolutely NO ill effects.

[AndrewA]

Originally Posted by bNks334

I installed the ARM 5" intercooler and it works perfect on my <400whp N55. IAT's always stay <145f during 3rd through 4th gear pulls (20-22psi) even at 90f+ ambient. IAT's drop insanely faster than stock as well when you coast after a pull.

3rd thru 4th with IAT right under 145 is actually pretty fuckin shitty

[AndrewA]

http://datazap.me/u/andrewauyoung/60...&data=1-4-6-19


Top of 4th on an 80 degree day for me with a VRSF FMIC is at 107.

Top of 5th is 130 degrees

Maybe I'll be at 145 when I'm at the top of 6th gear

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by WTF?

I understand what you are saying.....but I will tell you this. Most of what you are saying is theory. I have run the stuff on everything I drive, even NA cars. Never had a slosh problem.

On a 335i just run an ebay el cheapo no failsafe design, and run map 5. If it doesn't spray, then map 5 will autotune exactly like numerous cars do any ways and lower boost and pull timing. No harm done. Not all cars are running JB4's, but I think the vendors should share this information if they understand it, instead of just saying "Its Bad", and not letting the uniformed make educated decisions. Meth isn't the engine killer that it is made out to be by a long shot. And, 50/50 Water/Meth is just as good if not better than 100 meth for 99 percent of the public, so you could just run that, or even 100 percent destilled water, and watch your IAT's plummet with absolutely NO ill effects.

Wow that is terrible advice.

I don't think you understand how map 5 "autotuning" works. Map 5 on a jb4 takes multiple pulls to adapt. It's a long term learning. Your dme adjusts tiiming to prevent itself from blowing up and the jb4 reacts to that retroactively via avg ign. If avg ign is high than map 5 simply targets less and less boost until the dme stops retarding advance and avg ign finally falls. The jb4 does not control timing and forces your tuned car to run the stock timing curve.

I would never trust a jb4 to deliver meth anyway. It's a poor device as a boost/meth controller. And no failsafe? You seem to be misinformed on what a jb4 can actually do and without a failsafe meth setup your gambling with your engine.

If you're happy with it without issue then so be it... but you're offering some misguided advice imo

[FPsN54]

Originally Posted by AndrewA

http://datazap.me/u/andrewauyoung/60...&data=1-4-6-19


Top of 4th on an 80 degree day for me with a VRSF FMIC is at 107.

Top of 5th is 130 degrees

Maybe I'll be at 145 when I'm at the top of 6th gear

Is this with the 7" or 5" stepped?

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by AndrewA

http://datazap.me/u/andrewauyoung/60...&data=1-4-6-19


Top of 4th on an 80 degree day for me with a VRSF FMIC is at 107.

Top of 5th is 130 degrees

Maybe I'll be at 145 when I'm at the top of 6th gear

Way to make yourself look like an idiot. Your log isnt too much better than myou other log and you're using the larger 7" intercooler. You're running 20f over ambient and your iats rise almost the same as all the 5" I compared logs of. How is that good? You are basically showcasing how the vrsf7" has insignificant gains in iat supression over a 5"...Maybe you should actually try reading the thread...

You make the same misleading dumb statements I've already pointed out and shut down. I dont care to explain all over again, but you're free to read and learn why your log isn't comporable... especially not when youre comparing a 7" intercooler to a log of a 5" taken in 95f and revd to 6800 rpms to showcase performance in the absolute worst conditions possible.

Also I saw your review of your vrsf 7". You compare your numbers to a bunch of other logs and you don't keep track of ambient temperature. How can you compare logs without comparing ambient temps? Genius you are. As seen above, you draw invalid conclusions because you don't seem to understand how to interpret the differences.

Everything I've argued is in regard to 5" performance because that's what ARM offers. If you want to make the claim a 7", that also comes with penalties of its own, is necessary then do so respectfully and seperate that commentary from what is being discussed here.

[AndrewA]

Originally Posted by bNks334

Way to make yourself look like an idiot. Your log isnt too much better than mine and you're using the larger 7" intercooler. You're running 20f over ambient and your iats rise almost the same as all the 5" I compared logs of. How is that good? You are basically showcasing how the vrsf7" has insignificant gains in iat supression over a 5"...Maybe you should actually try reading the thread...

You make the same misleading dumb statements I've already pointed out and shut down. I dont care to explain all over again, but you're free to read and learn why your log isn't comporable... especially not to a log taken in 95f and revd to 6800 rpms to showcase performance in the absolute worst conditions possible.

Also I saw your review of your vrsf 7". You compare your numbers to a bunch of other logs and you don't keep track of ambient temperature. How can you compare logs without comparing ambient temps? Genius you are. As seen above, you draw invalid conclusions because you don't seem to understand how to interpret the differences.

Lmfao you are really as dumb as you act.

If you actually look at the review, all ambient temps are posted!!

And where in the world did you get "almost 20 degrees over ambient" I clearly stated the log was done at 80* ambient temp and I started at 87*

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by AndrewA

Lmfao you are really as dumb as you act.

If you actually look at the review, all ambient temps are posted!!

And where in the world did you get "almost 20 degrees over ambient" I clearly stated the log was done at 80* ambient temp

You just tried to compare a log of a 7" intercooler in 80f to a log of a 5" in 95f.... argue semantics all you want, but nothing you are presenting adds any value to what is being discussed ( an ARM 5" intercooler).

The difference in iats between your 7" and the 5" that were all logged, even if a few degrees, won't lead to any real world gains with a proper flash tune. Both units log IATs low enough to push the stock turbo to its limits. You missed that point entirely as well.