[InControl]

Originally Posted by Delta0311

You are talking about SC here right?

SC = supercharger. Yes!

[InControl]

Originally Posted by Nordkeyz73

Just read a from themustangsource.com saying that a V2-S trim kit in box weighed 48lbs and before it was fitted to this particular mustang, about 20 pounds came off the car during prep. In this instance, the vehicle was around 28lbs heavier than before. That weight is negligible. The supercharger gains are more noticeable horsepower per dollar than a manifold/tune.
Assuming you were to buy a TMS 3-stage kit and tune, ~$2000 for parts and install, you hit the limit for what US tuners produce, about 260hp. For me, that's a 30hp gain. For $4900 a 100hp gain is mathematically cheaper per horsepower even if you pay for installation.

Not arguing for one or the other as I've considered both options. All I'm saying is there are no negative attributes from the weight of the ESS kit (presumably) or even the price of it.

Without discounts the ESS SC kit will be about $6k with install. This is not peanuts but still within range to some. If weight increase will be minimal as you suggest than the only real issue against it is price and void warranty.

[Delta0311]

Originally Posted by InControl

Without discounts the ESS SC kit will be about $6k with install. This is not peanuts but still within range to some. If weight increase will be minimal as you suggest than the only real issue against it is price and void warranty.

So yes it that is your concern then your best option is the manifold and a tune. If your car is an auto then the tune alone is worth it just for the fact that it makes shifts a lot smoother and removes the throttle lag.

[Taskmaster]

Intake manifold and tune is realistically around $800 if you do it yourself and can offer gains up 25whp. That's still 220-230whp at they most. At $5000 the supercharger is 80-100 whp more than that!

[Nordkeyz73]

Originally Posted by InControl

Without discounts the ESS SC kit will be about $6k with install. This is not peanuts but still within range to some. If weight increase will be minimal as you suggest than the only real issue against it is price and void warranty.

I agree. If your car is still under warranty, the SC kit is not something I would attempt. The manifold and tune I would do as it is unnoticeable and much cheaper. For those without a factory warranty, the SC could be a real option. Plus, ESS claims a 2-year unlimited mile warranty on all their systems for what it's worth.

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by InControl

Hi guys!

Two different animals. Starting with a base 328i N52, DISA plus tune yields about 260hp while the SC adds 90-100 on 93 octane, hence 320hp. Here's my break up.

DISA Pros:

Cheaper to get
Cheaper to repair
Cheaper to replace
More reliable (bmw part; tested by many)
Lighter
Easier DIY
Can literally cruise at redline
Does not change driving characteristics
Less heat under the hood

ESS SC pros:

More power - not much faster since added weight
Changes driving characteristics - more in line with 335i, higher power on low revs does not scream "floor it!", less fun in twisties
Bragging rights
Easier to mod (add on more power)

Seems like DISA is a no brainer. Why than so much excitement, don't get me wrong, I'm considering the SC. Is 300+ hp with more weight a step up over the DISA or even stock? Am struggling to logically and not emotionally pick the right one. I do not plan on tracking my car (new car).

Oh, and there's doing neither.

Stock pros vs DISA and SC:

Undeniable warranty
Linear power, no gaps in torque
More $$$ in my pocket
No tuning issues
Better predicted reliability

Which would you pick and why.

It appears that you and many folks here forget about realistic power transfer to the ground. Of course you can add 1000 hp but how will you transfer it to the pavement?? For example, 335i's with 500+ hp can't effectively use it.

I can tell you that most likely TC will be killing it all the time and you will not be able to use it. Hell, even my car had power transfer issues until I installed LSD. In addition to LSD think also about suspension and brakes. It is important that the car is balanced so that you can use all it's capabilities and not just pay for bragging rights. Braking and stopping is important, I think.

At the end, please attend HPDE to learn more about your car, physics and dynamics before you spend thousands, wreck it and potentially hurt yourself and others. This is true for all those that think they can simply press the pedal to the metal and call that driving.

Consider this constructive criticism as we all wish we drive high performance cars sometimes but reality is much different. Get to know your car. She can be your best friend or your worst enemy!

Cheers

[mike-y]

A centrifugal blower builds torque in a more gradual fashion compared to turbos or a roots-type blower, so traction issues aren't going to be nearly as much as a problem. The dyno charts posted confirm this. Also, the SC will make less torque than a comparably powered 335i, and you don't see many of them complaining that it's too much power. I don't think people are going to have big traction issues with this kit, unless it's wet outside, or you have some really crappy tires.

also, weight. There won't be much weight gain with a centrifugal setup. The only things you are adding are the blower unit itself, some mounting brackets, and a pulley. it's not like a turbo charger where you are adding a cast iron manifold in some cases, charge piping, an intercooler, bov, etc, etc. a SC setup like this is relatively simple and compact. The power gain will FAR, FAR, outweigh any modest weight the kit adds.

I'd be willing to bet the weight gain is going less than you see from the difference between a full tank of gas and a near-empty tank of gas. How much difference do you notice in power when you have a full tank vs an empty tank? exactly - not much.

finally, it really is absurd to be comparing two mods that have a cost delta of about $5,000, let alone the power difference. the disa manifold swap+tune is only going to get you around 220whp. It's like comparing air scoops to a custom duno tune from Active Autowerks.

[1QuikWS6]

Originally Posted by InControl

I am aware of the power differences between DISA and SC. The question is how will the SC impact driving characteristics?
I estimate 0-60 between stock, DISA and SC will be less than a second. The difference will be obvious in 1/4 mile.

It will impact in a good way

The Vortech HU is gear driven inside with step up ratio between driven pulley & impeller. Since it is crank driven, you have a percentage of total boost immediately off idle as the impeller is spinning at a much higher speed than the crank all the time - boost simply builds from that point to max boost available (allowed).

There is absolutley no lag at all as compared to ANY turbo setup out there. The higher your RPM's go the more boost that is provided in a exponential linear fashion - there is no instantaneous hard hit as it comes in to play. Will you be able to break loose the tires with a SC? - Yes, if you really try - but anyone knows that while the tires are spinning - you are losing to the guy that isn't. It will not be hard to keep traction if you drive in even a moderately 'spirited' fashion Fuel injected cars react/act much better to the Vortech system over a carb setup - I've had both & definitely prefer the charactersitics with FI over carb.

Most of the time, your engine intake manifold, cu in. size is the limiting factor as to how much boost you can accept, as the boost get's 'backed up' in the areas that cannot flow well enough for the boost that is being provided.

If the system is designed properly with correct size driving/driven pulleys & blowoff/return settings, you will have no problems and will take best advantage of boost available.

Actually, on a stock engine not built specifically for boosted applications - users that think they will get more power by simply changing out the supplied pulleys to different ratio in order to drive SC faster (hence more boost & quicker apply), & leave rest of engine alone - will actually get less HP in the end - boost backs up in intake system, heats the incoming air even more, and results in lower HP. Any boost that is not being fully ingested by the engine at same rate as it is applied is wasted & just results in more heat, since an engine is really nothing more than an air pump...

The Vortech SC system on my LS6 vette actually uses twin intercoolers also - to lower incoming charge temps. The difference between intercooled & non-IC in that application is VERY noticeable - especially after a couple hard runs in hot weather. My LS6 is only slight modified with larger MAF, Throttle Body, Intake, Injectors, Heads & the fuel system from pump to injectors is upgraded - the short block is stock. This car was also custom tuned on dyno with LS1Edit to squeeze every last drop of power out of it over the cutom tune that was supplied by Vortech.

I guess it's kinda hard to explain the SC experience - you just need to take a drive in a car with a centrifugal SC to see for yourself. I can tell you that you will be pleased - if the system is designed correctly and the tune is optimum you will notice no unwanted driveability issues even in normal, in-town, every day driving...

[InControl]

Originally Posted by 1QuikWS6

It will impact in a good way

The Vortech HU is gear driven inside with step up ratio between driven pulley & impeller. Since it is crank driven, you have a percentage of total boost immediately off idle as the impeller is spinning at a much higher speed than the crank all the time - boost simply builds from that point to max boost available (allowed).

There is absolutley no lag at all as compared to ANY turbo setup out there. The higher your RPM's go the more boost that is provided in a exponential linear fashion - there is no instantaneous hard hit as it comes in to play. Will you be able to break loose the tires with a SC? - Yes, if you really try - but anyone knows that while the tires are spinning - you are losing to the guy that isn't. It will not be hard to keep traction if you drive in even a moderately 'spirited' fashion Fuel injected cars react/act much better to the Vortech system over a carb setup - I've had both & definitely prefer the charactersitics with FI over carb.

Most of the time, your engine intake manifold, cu in. size is the limiting factor as to how much boost you can accept, as the boost get's 'backed up' in the areas that cannot flow well enough for the boost that is being provided.

If the system is designed properly with correct size driving/driven pulleys & blowoff/return settings, you will have no problems and will take best advantage of boost available.

Actually, on a stock engine not built specifically for boosted applications - users that think they will get more power by simply changing out the supplied pulleys to different ratio in order to drive SC faster (hence more boost & quicker apply), & leave rest of engine alone - will actually get less HP in the end - boost backs up in intake system, heats the incoming air even more, and results in lower HP. Any boost that is not being fully ingested by the engine at same rate as it is applied is wasted & just results in more heat, since an engine is really nothing more than an air pump...

The Vortech SC system on my LS6 vette actually uses twin intercoolers also - to lower incoming charge temps. The difference between intercooled & non-IC in that application is VERY noticeable - especially after a couple hard runs in hot weather. My LS6 is only slight modified with larger MAF, Throttle Body, Intake, Injectors, Heads & the fuel system from pump to injectors is upgraded - the short block is stock. This car was also custom tuned on dyno with LS1Edit to squeeze every last drop of power out of it over the cutom tune that was supplied by Vortech.

I guess it's kinda hard to explain the SC experience - you just need to take a drive in a car with a centrifugal SC to see for yourself. I can tell you that you will be pleased - if the system is designed correctly and the tune is optimum you will notice no unwanted driveability issues even in normal, in-town, every day driving...

I had a Saab turbo for 10 years and other than the lag really liked it, it was surprisingly reliable too. I wonder whether the ESS SC will be reliable long term if driven enthusiastically without trashing it.

[InControl]

Originally Posted by mike-y

A centrifugal blower builds torque in a more gradual fashion compared to turbos or a roots-type blower, so traction issues aren't going to be nearly as much as a problem. The dyno charts posted confirm this. Also, the SC will make less torque than a comparably powered 335i, and you don't see many of them complaining that it's too much power. I don't think people are going to have big traction issues with this kit, unless it's wet outside, or you have some really crappy tires.

also, weight. There won't be much weight gain with a centrifugal setup. The only things you are adding are the blower unit itself, some mounting brackets, and a pulley. it's not like a turbo charger where you are adding a cast iron manifold in some cases, charge piping, an intercooler, bov, etc, etc. a SC setup like this is relatively simple and compact. The power gain will FAR, FAR, outweigh any modest weight the kit adds.

I'd be willing to bet the weight gain is going less than you see from the difference between a full tank of gas and a near-empty tank of gas. How much difference do you notice in power when you have a full tank vs an empty tank? exactly - not much.

finally, it really is absurd to be comparing two mods that have a cost delta of about $5,000, let alone the power difference. the disa manifold swap+tune is only going to get you around 220whp. It's like comparing air scoops to a custom duno tune from Active Autowerks.

I'm glad you noticed they are not apple or orange types of systems, let this be a mash up comparison

Joking aside, you can spin wheels in a ford pinto if you drop the clutch fast enough while flooring the gas pedal. I know these cars could handle 350whp better than most muscle cars. In the end, it's up to the driver with nannies assist to control what's under the hood powering the wheels.

Sure, SC will be a lot more noticeable than DISA but in the end 95% of driving will be at similar speeds and accelerations, the difference will be the rpms by 2k

[InControl]

Originally Posted by Smooth 330i

It appears that you and many folks here forget about realistic power transfer to the ground. Of course you can add 1000 hp but how will you transfer it to the pavement?? For example, 335i's with 500+ hp can't effectively use it.

I can tell you that most likely TC will be killing it all the time and you will not be able to use it. Hell, even my car had power transfer issues until I installed LSD. In addition to LSD think also about suspension and brakes. It is important that the car is balanced so that you can use all it's capabilities and not just pay for bragging rights. Braking and stopping is important, I think.

At the end, please attend HPDE to learn more about your car, physics and dynamics before you spend thousands, wreck it and potentially hurt yourself and others. This is true for all those that think they can simply press the pedal to the metal and call that driving.

Consider this constructive criticism as we all wish we drive high performance cars sometimes but reality is much different. Get to know your car. She can be your best friend or your worst enemy!

Cheers

In first gear the SC will definitely let the wheels spin if you want to, after that it shouldn't be a problem with summer tires. It's hard to get in trouble with the current speed limits. Consider that extra power can help safe your life if you need to pull away in emergency situations, like a traffic light.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by InControl

Read your thread with regard to DISA. Most guys doing it with tune praise it. Do you regret getting it?

When I get it working right - probably not.

[InControl]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

When I get it working right - probably not.

Good luck! I'd like to hear your feedback how different it really is. Everyone gets different dyno results and it's difficult to honestly ascertain the added power and driving feel. 0-60 and 1/4 mile of before and after for the same car would back up the gains.

I would expect to see around:

stock auto 6.2/14.5

DISA mod 5.8/13.9

SC 5.3/12.8

The 0-60 and 1/4 mile about the same for the manual tranny within .2 seconds.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by InControl

Good luck! I'd like to hear your feedback how different it really is. Everyone gets different dyno results and it's difficult to honestly ascertain the added power and driving feel. 0-60 and 1/4 mile of before and after for the same car would back up the gains.

I would expect to see around:

stock auto 6.2/14.5

DISA mod 5.8/13.9

SC 5.3/12.8

The 0-60 and 1/4 mile about the same for the manual tranny within .2 seconds.

You'll need more than a DISA for a 13.9 (which can require around 98-100mph trap speeds) Think headers, optimized intake and a good (dyno) Tune.

[InControl]

Originally Posted by Delta0311

So yes it that is your concern then your best option is the manifold and a tune. If your car is an auto then the tune alone is worth it just for the fact that it makes shifts a lot smoother and removes the throttle lag.

Re auto lag: I've been driving stick cars most of my life and really like them regardless how smooth and in sync, the car always feels better to me in stick. Having said that, I confess that driving my e92 auto in manual mode gives me great control of the car at any time. Out of the 10k miles driven, less than 50 miles were in auto. Hence, I honestly don't know hot the auto tranny behaves, but can confidently tell you that besides the third pedal, and starting in first gear by dropping the clutch, the sport manual is a gem, has perfect gear ratios and responds faster or about the same time I can row gears.
It actually feels similar to my sport bike

[InControl]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

You'll need more than a DISA for a 13.9 (which can require around 98-100mph trap speeds) Think headers, optimized intake and a good (dyno) Tune.

When I mention DISA I always assume with an aggressive tune

[InControl]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

You'll need more than a DISA for a 13.9 (which can require around 98-100mph trap speeds) Think headers, optimized intake and a good (dyno) Tune.

I think that coupes are lower to the ground over sedans, should have lower drag coefficient which should reduce time to get to 1/4 mile.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by InControl

I think that coupes are lower to the ground over sedans, should have lower drag coefficient which should reduce time to get to 1/4 mile.

That's the least of your worries, an aggressive gearset would be a better bet.

[InControl]

Off topic, I have Brazil vs Netherlands in the finals, the hosts going all the way!

[Mike.]

when I ran with my mods stated in my sig I got 6.2/14.5 on an xdrive auto.

[InControl]

Originally Posted by Emozoo

when I ran with my mods stated in my sig I got 6.2/14.5 on an xdrive auto.

Pretty good. Your mods on a rwd sport would probably shake another .5 sec off to 1/4 mile. Now that my tranny and engine is fully broken in I will be taking my e92 stock to the strip, based on my stopwatch expect to be around your numbers, will be running in manual mode.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Emozoo

when I ran with my mods stated in my sig I got 6.2/14.5 on an xdrive auto.

On the track or on a Acceleration Timer. Big difference.