[VP Electricity]

hudmamma, you seem to have done a big post on another forum... would you mind creating a similar post here?

[hudmamma]

Hi VP. should i continue from this page?

[hudmamma]

Should i continue from here or what.?

[discs4sale]

First posting here.

I wanted to chime on the "necessity" on the "all approach to upgrading with BSW Stage 1 speakers for both front and rear channels from my own experience.

I have a 2008 535i (E60) with standard stereo (non L7). I'm not sure if this is what BSW team mean by the "Hifi" version.

When I did the installation, I replaced the front midranges and tweeters first and took a listen. It was immediately obvious the sound was unbalanced with significantly more midrange output in the rear! This meant that the BSW frequency response in the new front installation was very different that the soundstage seemed to be coming from the rear of the car. Using the front/rear fader control to try to balance things out still didn't work since the OEM speakers had a fundamentally different frequency response, not just higher sensitivity/efficiency. People might be calling it the harsh OE sound...more on that later.

I needed to install BSWs on the rear to get the frequency response/sensitivity to match the fronts to get at least the soundstage balanced. However, the general tonal quality now became what I call muffled. I think the midrange/tweeters running by themselves without the underseat woofers might "measure" ok, but when you factor that the underseat woofers are now louder in comparison to the BSW midrange/tweeters, every thing sounds more bass heavy/boomy, not in a good way.

I had spoken to BSW initially when I bought the speakers in Fall 2008 when they were first released. They suggested I turn down to bass control and turn up the treble control to my desired frequency. I don't think that is right approach for a plug'n'play system to get a more flat response. In fact, the tone controls can't compensate to balance the underseat woofer relative to the BSW midrange/tweeter. I think that there needs to be a way to properly attentuate the woofer output to balance the sound.

After recently reviewing the latest threads about L7 vs. Hifi amp SQ, I concur the BSWs probably are more optimized for the L7 amps and don't compensate as well for the Hifi amp. I have trying to reach someone at BSW to confirm if what I am hearing is correct and if there are any options. I am currently back to the OEM midranges/tweeter to get a more balanced low/midrange response. True, the OEM speakers are bit more harsh and I don't get much treble, but they seem more lively without having to tweak the tone controls. I hope to get a resolution from BSW.

[Micah D. Cranman]

Originally Posted by discs4sale

First posting here.

I wanted to chime on the "necessity" on the "all approach to upgrading with BSW Stage 1 speakers for both front and rear channels from my own experience.

I have a 2008 535i (E60) with standard stereo (non L7). I'm not sure if this is what BSW team mean by the "Hifi" version.

When I did the installation, I replaced the front midranges and tweeters first and took a listen. It was immediately obvious the sound was unbalanced with significantly more midrange output in the rear! This meant that the BSW frequency response in the new front installation was very different that the soundstage seemed to be coming from the rear of the car. Using the front/rear fader control to try to balance things out still didn't work since the OEM speakers had a fundamentally different frequency response, not just higher sensitivity/efficiency. People might be calling it the harsh OE sound...more on that later.

I needed to install BSWs on the rear to get the frequency response/sensitivity to match the fronts to get at least the soundstage balanced. However, the general tonal quality now became what I call muffled. I think the midrange/tweeters running by themselves without the underseat woofers might "measure" ok, but when you factor that the underseat woofers are now louder in comparison to the BSW midrange/tweeters, every thing sounds more bass heavy/boomy, not in a good way.

I had spoken to BSW initially when I bought the speakers in Fall 2008 when they were first released. They suggested I turn down to bass control and turn up the treble control to my desired frequency. I don't think that is right approach for a plug'n'play system to get a more flat response. In fact, the tone controls can't compensate to balance the underseat woofer relative to the BSW midrange/tweeter. I think that there needs to be a way to properly attentuate the woofer output to balance the sound.

After recently reviewing the latest threads about L7 vs. Hifi amp SQ, I concur the BSWs probably are more optimized for the L7 amps and don't compensate as well for the Hifi amp. I have trying to reach someone at BSW to confirm if what I am hearing is correct and if there are any options. I am currently back to the OEM midranges/tweeter to get a more balanced low/midrange response. True, the OEM speakers are bit more harsh and I don't get much treble, but they seem more lively without having to tweak the tone controls. I hope to get a resolution from BSW.

First, thanks for your feedback -- this is the type of response that helps us improve and enhance our products. It's also not a response we get from customers, well, pretty much ever. That said, I'm not going to try and dispute your experience or tell you you heard something different.

It's also not how the drivers are designed to behave, so I'm not sure what the issue may be here. Can you email me directly with your info so I can look into it further for you? mdc@bavsound.com.

[hudmamma]

What,s all this talk about sound improvement.?
Changing speakers ain't gonna improve jack.!! Why..? because the sound coming from L7 amp is pre equalized and sound's like crap..! save your mony or rebuild the entire system

[T7R_Sky]

Ok... So I just got done installing my JLG6600 (which i think sounds amazing now) and I was wondering if the BSW upgrade would make a significant difference now that im not running the stock Hifi amp? Or will it still be less improvement than the L7 guys?

[hudmamma]

[QUOTE=T7R_Sky;6152114]Ok... So I just got done installing my JLG6600 (which i think sounds amazing now) and I was wondering if the BSW upgrade would make a significant difference now that im not running the stock Hifi amp? Or will it still be less improvement than the L7 guys?[/QUOT

If you'r are willing to do some self fitment .! go for a 4" component set

[Micah D. Cranman]

Originally Posted by hudmamma

What,s all this talk about sound improvement.?
Changing speakers ain't gonna improve jack.!! Why..? because the sound coming from L7 amp is pre equalized and sound's like crap..! save your mony or rebuild the entire system

You are, quite simply, wrong.

Can you improve the system MORE by completely replacing everything in the vehicle? Yes, absolutely.

However, if you don't have the desire/know-how/time to perform a complete system replacement, the Stage 1 is a significant upgrade in terms of overall sound quality. I'm sorry that you didn't get the results you want, but there are hundreds of people who have with our product -- with the Logic7 system.

If we had a product that didn't do what we advertise, we'd go out of business quite rapidly. We have a 100% guarantee, so anyone who isn't happy need only send the product back for a full refund.

Look, I'm sorry that you didn't get the results you want, but quit crapping on our product. It's not productive for anyone involved.

[Micah D. Cranman]

Originally Posted by T7R_Sky

Ok... So I just got done installing my JLG6600 (which i think sounds amazing now) and I was wondering if the BSW upgrade would make a significant difference now that im not running the stock Hifi amp? Or will it still be less improvement than the L7 guys?

Quite simply, yes. Naturally, I can't condone using our product with an aftermarket amp since we don't officially support it, so you're on your own in terms of install, tuning, warranty, etc.

[hudmamma]

crapping on our product..?????????????
Im not crapping on your product .!!!!!!! I got your stage one ! and it did not improve anything.! Futhermore how can a speaker sound much better when the L7 amp suck..? I did a sound test with the stage one from a "real amp" and yes it's quite good.!! Where you got this crapping on our product from, i dont know.!

[Micah D. Cranman]

Originally Posted by hudmamma

crapping on our product..?????????????
Im not crapping on your product .!!!!!!! I got your stage one ! and it did not improve anything.! Futhermore how can a speaker sound much better when the L7 amp suck..? I did a sound test with the stage one from a "real amp" and yes it's quite good.!! Where you got this crapping on our product from, i dont know.!

That is your subjective OPINION, which is in conflict with our experience and testing as well as the results of many other customers who have Logic7 and our Stage 1. It DOES work, but perhaps the difference wasn't significant as far as you're concerned.

In any case, fair enough -- it sounds like your issue is with the L7 amplifier, not our product, which we'll grant. The amp could certainly be better.

[hudmamma]

Yes that's right. I have never said your product is bad . . But you must agree that stage one is only as good as the amp !

[hudmamma]

Ps i think that the stage one is a great ide.! just a shame the amp suck

[Micah D. Cranman]

Sure -- a speaker can only perform as well as the amp allows it to. That said, I just think your subjective view of the performance of the L7 amp is very low. We don't think it's great by any means, but it's certainly one of the best amps BMW has used to date.

[UdubBadger]

Thats like saying I play lead guitar with a stick an 6 strings attached to it... its one of the better sticks I've used though.

I have to agree that the amp in this car sucks balls, regardless of if its better than its predecessors, better junk is still junk IMO.

I think the argument most people are trying to make is that instead of making stuff to WORK with the crappy amp, it might have been more beneficial on your end (and thus on ours) to make a better amp 1st and then the speakers... it seems like the amp is the key to making this stereo 10x better and while the upgraded speakers help, they will really shine with a better amp.

If you guys made an amp/speaker package I'm sure it would trump the OE system by miles so when you release the package, I'll be very interested but I think like Hudmamma and a few other are saying, solely upgrading the speakers isn't a permanent solution, its merely a minor fixing a smaller problem rather than addressing the larger problem at the source.

[hudmamma]

If thats true..!! they are light years behind : I can only say this..!
try switching the fader to the rear , and it vil give you some ide about the pre equalizing going on in the L7 amp. In my world it should sound the same as in the front . ps:i done this with only speakers mounted in the doors.
The sound from the rear is without the worst sound i have ever heard..!
apart from the the rear sound , i have to say that after i did a complete amp replacement i was blown away..!! I have sold car amps in the past, and even the world cheapest amp sound better then L7 . The pre equalizing have failed to do the job like entended. Deaf sound engineer

[hudmamma]

Finally one that understand the real deal. UdubBadger

[Micah D. Cranman]

Originally Posted by UdubBadger

Thats like saying I play lead guitar with a stick an 6 strings attached to it... its one of the better sticks I've used though.

I have to agree that the amp in this car sucks balls, regardless of if its better than its predecessors, better junk is still junk IMO.

I think the argument most people are trying to make is that instead of making stuff to WORK with the crappy amp, it might have been more beneficial on your end (and thus on ours) to make a better amp 1st and then the speakers... it seems like the amp is the key to making this stereo 10x better and while the upgraded speakers help, they will really shine with a better amp.

If you guys made an amp/speaker package I'm sure it would trump the OE system by miles so when you release the package, I'll be very interested but I think like Hudmamma and a few other are saying, solely upgrading the speakers isn't a permanent solution, its merely a minor fixing a smaller problem rather than addressing the larger problem at the source.

Remember that we're talking about the Logic7 amp, not the HiFi amp you have in your car, which I'll agree is a total turd (pardon my French).

To be blunt, we'd have had an amp upgrade much sooner if not for capital issues we've been experiencing. It's been in the works for some time now and we are well past when we expected to have it available. We agree completely -- an amp upgrade is sorely needed, but a Stage 1 is still an option for people who want an improvement and don't have the skill to design their own system.

[UdubBadger]

Originally Posted by Micah D. Cranman

Remember that we're talking about the Logic7 amp, not the HiFi amp you have in your car, which I'll agree is a total turd (pardon my French).

To be blunt, we'd have had an amp upgrade much sooner if not for capital issues we've been experiencing. It's been in the works for some time now and we are well past when we expected to have it available. We agree completely -- an amp upgrade is sorely needed, but a Stage 1 is still an option for people who want an improvement and don't have the skill to design their own system.

No worries, I'm looking forward to seeing what a company with your knowledge can do with directly with our cars. Almost no other company makes stuff engineered specifically for one make/model so I'm expecting some good things out of you guys.

[Micah D. Cranman]

Originally Posted by UdubBadger

No worries, I'm looking forward to seeing what a company with your knowledge can do with directly with our cars. Almost no other company makes stuff engineered specifically for one make/model so I'm expecting some good things out of you guys.

As you should -- very cool things coming down the pipe!

[JohnnyCanuck]

Considering dealing with the "turd" in my new 328i ... really unimpressed with the sound quality. This is the third new car in a row I've had to deal with uninspiring audio (the last one had the infamous no highs, no lows ... must be Bose).

However, I am very swayed by the relative ease of the BSW Stage 1. A couple of questions that I think I know the answer to, but if you want to weigh in Micah, that would be great. Will the Amp be as relatively plug and play as the Stage 1? I note your comments about not completely optimizing the Stage 1 for the OEM amp ... will the new Amp bring the best out of the Stage 1 speakers?