[ettil]

I feel silly putting this in "Canada" but here it is. Pardon me if it's not the right place but DC Metro (aka "Mid-Atlantic") talks about everything.

So how viable is it to live off of $65000 CDN in Vancouver for 2 people? Is 65k in line for a computer programmer (Perl)? Housing/rental market? Traffic?

thanks

[aspiring335]

Originally Posted by ettil

I feel silly putting this in "Canada" but here it is. Pardon me if it's not the right place but DC Metro (aka "Mid-Atlantic") talks about everything.

So how viable is it to live off of $65000 CDN in Vancouver for 2 people? Is 65k in line for a computer programmer (Perl)? Housing/rental market? Traffic?

thanks

It's tough. Vancouver is getting close to being the most expensive housing market in North America after Manhattan. Think property prices of $850+ / sq ft in many cases for the nicer areas. The average single family home now goes for $900k in the last study I saw, although the further out you go from Vancouver proper the more affordable it becomes.

We have recently been looking for an old beater house with development potential in my area and it's $1.3 - $1.4 million for something with the right zoning and land. That's for a house that's in really bad shape and currently split up into multiple rental units. I think the market's overvalued, but I always think that and it never seems to go down.

But the good news is that Vancouver is one of the best places in the world to live. I've lived in Toronto, Calgary, London, Manchester, Oxford, among other cities, and Vancouver is hands-down our choice for a place to settle. Also, the rental market is a lot more affordable than property prices might suggest. Decent 1 br apartments for $900 - $1,200 / month are still possible, so it's really a case of how you want to live.

[RIPe34]

Originally Posted by ettil

I feel silly putting this in "Canada" but here it is. Pardon me if it's not the right place but DC Metro (aka "Mid-Atlantic") talks about everything.

So how viable is it to live off of $65000 CDN in Vancouver for 2 people? Is 65k in line for a computer programmer (Perl)? Housing/rental market? Traffic?

thanks

Depending on your experience level and who the employer is, $65K is not too far out for someone of 2-3 years of experience max.

As far as whether or not its viable, it depends on what lifestyle you're accustomed too.

[Zeeman]

aspiring335 is pretty much right. It would be difficult to buy a house or even a decent condo on $65K. Condos in the city are selling for $600 - $1,000per sq ft, but rents are cheap compared to other major cities. If you want a nicer 1 bdrm condo in downtown you are probably be looking at $1,500 per mo. Even tho rents are cheap, the rental market is pretty tight right now.

If you are communting into the city traffic can be brutal. If you do decide to live in the burbs, make sure that you are close to a major public transit line. The good news is that if you can handle the traffic, parking downtown is pretty cheap at about $10-20 per day (what an hour costs you in NYC or Boston)

If you like the outdoors, you'll love Vancouver. Great place for skiing, hiking, cycling, etc...

Is the job with ActiveState Software by any chance? (I don't work for the company, but know they are a big Perl shop).

[spacedogg]

Originally Posted by RIPe34

Depending on your experience level and who the employer is, $65K is not too far out for someone of 2-3 years of experience max.

As far as whether or not its viable, it depends on what lifestyle you're accustomed too.

+1

$65k is hard if you want to own a place (pay a mortgage) and own and drive a E9x. You will have to be very judicious with your spending...especially if it's for two people. But it may be possible if you are both money conscious. I assume you have some money to put down for a downpayment if you want to buy a place.

Renting is likely a better bet.

After taxes you are only bringing in about $3500 per month. Expect to pay at least $1000 a month for a decent place for two people that is close to work.Then depends on what you eat/how often you eat out/whether you take packed lunches to work/etc...but presumably you can live off $1000 a month for groceries, utilities and misc household expenses. Perhaps a $500 a month for a car (won't be a BMW...unless you have money for a downpayment)...the remaining can go into your savings/contingency fund and entertainment expenses. And there goes most of your $65k after taxes. I assume you mean $65k before taxes.

On paper it seems like it is totally doable, but I personally found when I was making that much money that it was hard to save up lots of money. But then again...I a bit of a spendthrift.

I remember the good ol' days when $65k CDN was only worth $40k USD...hehe.

[ettil]

Thanks for all the quick responses. They've been pretty helpful.

Being that we'd be there initially on a work permit I'm not sure how purchasing a home would go but I'd assume "no" would be the answer. The interview & offer all happened this evening so I haven't had time to research all the legalities. Rental w/4-5 pets???

Vancouver's been shortlisted since the first trip out to Whistler years ago. You all have an incredibly beautiful area. Usually we just joke about moving out there not ever really thinking we'd find an employer willing to sponsor.

[ettil]

Originally Posted by RIPe34

Depending on your experience level and who the employer is, $65K is not too far out for someone of 2-3 years of experience max.

As far as whether or not its viable, it depends on what lifestyle you're accustomed too.

Hmmm it's a very small company under 20 people and we're talking +5 years Perl experience. Last salary was +$100k USD so it's a bit of a change but we're not overly familiar what salaries are in Canada to know how that offer compares.

Lifestyle - spoilt? Cheap housing (bought early), short commute...

[ettil]

Originally Posted by Zeeman

If you are communting into the city traffic can be brutal. If you do decide to live in the burbs, make sure that you are close to a major public transit line. The good news is that if you can handle the traffic, parking downtown is pretty cheap at about $10-20 per day (what an hour costs you in NYC or Boston)

If you like the outdoors, you'll love Vancouver. Great place for skiing, hiking, cycling, etc...

Is the job with ActiveState Software by any chance? (I don't work for the company, but know they are a big Perl shop).

Horror stories of commuting? 1 hour? 1.5 hours? 2 hours? I've seen the trolleys/buses on the tracks but that's all I know for public transit out there.

The job is with Gossamer Threads.

[ettil]

Originally Posted by spacedogg

After taxes you are only bringing in about $3500 per month. Expect to pay at least $1000 a month for a decent place for two people that is close to work.Then depends on what you eat/how often you eat out/whether you take packed lunches to work/etc...but presumably you can live off $1000 a month for groceries, utilities and misc household expenses. Perhaps a $500 a month for a car (won't be a BMW...unless you have money for a downpayment)...the remaining can go into your savings/contingency fund and entertainment expenses. And there goes most of your $65k after taxes. I assume you mean $65k before taxes.

On paper it seems like it is totally doable, but I personally found when I was making that much money that it was hard to save up lots of money. But then again...I a bit of a spendthrift.

I remember the good ol' days when $65k CDN was only worth $40k USD...hehe.

Thanks for breaking the after tax down. Not exactly sure who we'll be paying taxes to as we'd be there on a work permit for a while but it's nice to have an idea of the tax rates.

I already have the cars (and have been asked if I could live without them) but unless I want to take a huge hit I have to keep the e90 and the Porsche is non-negotiable.

Everything always looks better on paper As for spendthrift... $6k/mo USD after taxes does not go far

Any ideas on car insurance?

[SPACEMANRICK]

You will love Vancouver! I went for a walk today with my family down to Coal Harbor and down Denman Street to English Bay and Stanley Park. The 3 or 4 mile route has to be one of the most spectacular in the world. If you love food there are hundreds of great restaurants within a 5 mile radius of the downtown core.

If you are renting check out Coal Harbor or the West End of Vancouver. Everything is in walking distance and there are miles and miles of biking and rollerblading trails as well as great community centers for working out. The rents for a 1 bedroom suite are probably around $1,500 per month in Coal Harbor but it is worth checking out.........

[aspiring335]

Originally Posted by SPACEMANRICK

You will love Vancouver! I went for a walk today with my family down to Coal Harbor and down Denman Street to English Bay and Stanley Park. The 3 or 4 mile route has to be one of the most spectacular in the world. If you love food there are hundreds of great restaurants within a 5 mile radius of the downtown core.

If you are renting check out Coal Harbor or the West End of Vancouver. Everything is in walking distance and there are miles and miles of biking and rollerblading trails as well as great community centers for working out. The rents for a 1 bedroom suite are probably around $1,500 per month in Coal Harbor but it is worth checking out.........

+1. The West End is the best place to find great old apartments that are good value and close to everything. We live in Kitsilano, which is also a fantastic area, but I don't know if it has as many decent apartments.

If you go for the West End see if you can find something west of Denman Street.

[aspiring335]

Originally Posted by ettil

Thanks for breaking the after tax down. Not exactly sure who we'll be paying taxes to as we'd be there on a work permit for a while but it's nice to have an idea of the tax rates.

I already have the cars (and have been asked if I could live without them) but unless I want to take a huge hit I have to keep the e90 and the Porsche is non-negotiable.

Everything always looks better on paper As for spendthrift... $6k/mo USD after taxes does not go far

Any ideas on car insurance?

I believe the tax treaty between the US and Canada means you will be assessed standard Canadian income tax rates, deducted at source, just like any other Canadian resident. I'm not a tax lawyer, though, so don't quote me on that.

Car insurance in BC is provided by a government entity, ICBC. They are the only option for mandatory liability coverage, but you can purchase theft and collision coverage from private insurers.

I would see if they can do better than $65k / year. How many years' experience do you have?

Finally, I've heard horror stories of people trying to find rentals that will take pets in Vancouver, so that may be your biggest challenge...

[spacedogg]

Originally Posted by ettil

Horror stories of commuting? 1 hour? 1.5 hours? 2 hours? I've seen the trolleys/buses on the tracks but that's all I know for public transit out there.

The job is with Gossamer Threads.

Cool. Gossamer makes good stuff. I used their products back in the day when I used to web design as a hobby...

[Zeeman]

Originally Posted by aspiring335

I believe the tax treaty between the US and Canada means you will be assessed standard Canadian income tax rates, deducted at source, just like any other Canadian resident. I'm not a tax lawyer, though, so don't quote me on that.

Car insurance in BC is provided by a government entity, ICBC. They are the only option for mandatory liability coverage, but you can purchase theft and collision coverage from private insurers.

I would see if they can do better than $65k / year. How many years' experience do you have?

Finally, I've heard horror stories of people trying to find rentals that will take pets in Vancouver, so that may be your biggest challenge...

Correct about the tax treaty. If you are employed and living here on a permanent basis you are considered a resident for tax purposes.

Income tax rates are a lot higher in Canada in the higher income tax brackets. E.g. top marginal rate in BC is about 43%, and kicks in at just over 100K. The good news is that payroll taxes are a lot lower, therefore at $65K there should be not much of a difference in net deductions from your income.

[aspiring335]

Originally Posted by Zeeman

Correct about the tax treaty. If you are employed and living here on a permanent basis you are considered a resident for tax purposes.

Income tax rates are a lot higher in Canada in the higher income tax brackets. E.g. top marginal rate in BC is about 43%, and kicks in at just over 100K. The good news is that payroll taxes are a lot lower, therefore at $65K there should be not much of a difference in net deductions from your income.

Not to mention (sort of) free healthcare...

[CaptChaos]

Welcome to Vancouver!

Others have given you some good tips. You don't mention whether you want to live downtown or prefer a more suburban setting. The burbs have lower density and proportionally less noise and bustle. If you are considering suburban I suggest that you don't go too far out otherwise your commute gets too long. If you stay with the North Shore, Burnaby, Vancouver city and Richmond your commute should be between 30-60 minutes. Bus, Skytrain and Seabus are your public transit options depending on where you live.

With 65k and no car payments you should do just fine.

[EDMBMW]

Originally Posted by ettil

Hmmm it's a very small company under 20 people and we're talking +5 years Perl experience. Last salary was +$100k USD so it's a bit of a change but we're not overly familiar what salaries are in Canada to know how that offer compares.

Lifestyle - spoilt? Cheap housing (bought early), short commute...

Just based on that I would say you will have problems at 65k in Vancouver. Remember most things will cost a lot more to buy in Canada so every take home dollar you have is worth less then you have now regardless what the exchange is.

I live in Edmonton, Alberta which is considerably cheaper than Vancouver and I think you would have a hard time living here on 65k (and Alberta has considerably lower tax rates vs BC). Especially judging by the forum you are posting on, you don't have cheap tastes.

I'm not in computers, but the wage seems low imo.

Plus you say you own a home in the US right now so I would assume you would want to own again eventually in Canada and an average home in Vancouver is pushing 500 grand.

Good luck with the decision. Vancouver and BC are definitely amazing though so you will probably like it even if you are a bit broke.

[aspiring335]

Originally Posted by EDMBMW

Just based on that I would say you will have problems at 65k in Vancouver. Remember most things will cost a lot more to buy in Canada so every take home dollar you have is worth less then you have now regardless what the exchange is.

I live in Edmonton, Alberta which is considerably cheaper than Vancouver and I think you would have a hard time living here on 65k (and Alberta has considerably lower tax rates vs BC). Especially judging by the forum you are posting on, you don't have cheap tastes.

I'm not in computers, but the wage seems low imo.

Plus you say you own a home in the US right now so I would assume you would want to own again eventually in Canada and an average home in Vancouver is pushing 500 grand.

Good luck with the decision. Vancouver and BC are definitely amazing though so you will probably like it even if you are a bit broke.

Average single family home in Vancouver proper is over $900k. Factor in Burnaby, North Van, Richmond, etc. and it goes down, but $500k buys a one-bedroom condo on Vancouver's West Side these days.

[kick]

Makes pricing in Calgary seem tolerable. Vancouver is lovely, though.

[Zeeman]

re the salary - it might be a bit low for the role, but this is common in Vancouver. Salaries here tend to be lower than the averages for many other major cities. (Something I had to come to terms with when I moved back here a few years ago) I think it has a lot to do with lifestyle factor - i.e. so many people want to come here for the lifestyle that they are will to take a bit of a discount on the salary.

There is also a lower than average number of head offices here that tends to make it a less competitive market for higher paying professional and "corporate" jobs. Lot's of jobs in tourism and construction tho....if that's your thing.

[Lazzer]

65k is good if you’re a young bachelor renting a small downtown pad walking to work, but if you plan to share this with your partner and raise a family, purchase a house in a decent area, own 2 cars (especially E9x), have family vacations, save for retirement then this only becomes a dream. A lot of young couples find when they are ready to settle down they are priced out of the housing market. So if you don’t come with money for a down payment (100-200K) don’t expect to own a home unless you run into some really good fortune. But then on the other hand we do have legalized Casino’s in Vancouver you can try your luck there. Either way good luck to you!

[RIPe34]

Originally Posted by ettil

Hmmm it's a very small company under 20 people and we're talking +5 years Perl experience. Last salary was +$100k USD so it's a bit of a change but we're not overly familiar what salaries are in Canada to know how that offer compares.

Lifestyle - spoilt? Cheap housing (bought early), short commute...

Ettil,
With your experience, 65K does seem low. The job market in Vancouver in the tech sector is hot right now so salaries have gone up accordingly. Seems that you could be in the 75-90K range depending on where you've worked and your education. If you bring unique skills to the table, the salary could be a bit higher. Sounds like your spending habits are a bit like mine

Salaries here compared to the Bay Area for example don't really compare but its an employee's market right now. If you're good at what you do, you should be able to get the right salary to make it worthwhile.

PM me if you need more details.