[atlharry]

Originally Posted by gidiup

This BMW stuff is new to me and I have been reading this site to update myself on mod'n a BMW but this seems to mean......The AP is Detectable. WTF???

I'm sure I'm not the only one but I'm not looking to loose my warranty. When I got the car I got a very clear impression if you mod it and we catch it, we will void it.

modding is pay to play. always has been

[Glowin]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Yes, but with COBB, all you need to do is reflash back to stock and all of those stored values and increased load limits are gone...

It would be good if Cobb officially comments on this.

You're running GIAC, right? Have they officially commented on your assumption of what would happen to these values if you get flashed back to stock? (not just a map switch to "stock")

[OpenFlash]

Flashing back to stock, regardless of flash transport device (laptop, handheld programmer, BMW dealership coding tool, etc) will have no effect on this stored data. It's purpose it too keep track of things that are well beyond the scope of basic repair/maintenance.

[SennaZ]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

It's simply a matter of looking at the Max engine load value. Very cut and dry.

Shiv

I suspect the max load value is going to be pretty high to allow for 100 octane gas, large variances in temp and engine to engine variations.

Not to speak for Cobb, but I know they are aware of these ecu memory locations and I got the impression from an earlier post by Rob, he could overwrite them if he wanted.

[Imperator]

What's a valid indicator of a flash tune that may serve as a proof-positive indicator of tampering? The Cobb AccessPORT does not increment the write counter and the volatile adaptations data are cleared when uninstalled. If the FASTA data is accessible from other modules, what values can be polled that might be worth investigating? Are load, boost or MAP values stored elsewhere?

Thanks to Magnuson-Moss, I've never encountered a dealer service department that put the burden of proof on me, and those who are willing to risk breach of contract do well to document their positions.

So the mass hysteria begins.

[shifterboy45]

let me clear this up real quick..

ITSA/P /D is the network system software that helps to pull all the data together --

FASTA data is used for product analysis ... this compiled information helps with future generation cars. its easier to "see" how a vehicle performs outside of a test cell/track. given that every driver does something different, this logged information can be used to develop systems that are better suited for different conditions. its just like a real time road map, with ascents, decents, humidity changes and air temps,etc...

unfortunately for tuned cars that are not running a stock configuration some of these data traces will not fall in line with "normal" operating parameters.

but it will lead to move advanced systems with adaptation tables that can accomodate a variety of driving conditions. with innovation comes compromise.. i guess

[atlharry]

Originally Posted by Imperator

What's a valid indicator of a flash tune that may serve as a proof-positive indicator of tampering? The Cobb AccessPORT does not increment the write counter and the volatile adaptations data are cleared when uninstalled. If the FASTA data is accessible from other modules, what values can be polled that might be worth investigating? Are load, boost or MAP values stored elsewhere?

Thanks to Magnuson-Moss, I've never encountered a dealer service department that put the burden of proof on me, and those who are willing to risk breach of contract do well to document their positions.

So the mass hysteria begins.

If Shiv is correct, then max historical load is [one of] the values that could be keyed upon and is held in a non-flashable module. Again, we all want to hear from COBB regarding this.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by shifterboy45

let me clear this up real quick..

ITSA/P /D is the network system software that helps to pull all the data together --

FASTA data is used for product analysis ... this compiled information helps with future generation cars. its easier to "see" how a vehicle performs outside of a test cell/track. given that every driver does something different, this logged information can be used to develop systems that are better suited for different conditions. its just like a real time road map, with ascents, decents, humidity changes and air temps,etc...

unfortunately for tuned cars that are not running a stock configuration some of these data traces will not fall in line with "normal" operating parameters.

but it will lead to move advanced systems with adaptation tables that can accomodate a variety of driving conditions. with innovation comes compromise.. i guess

I should just have an auto "+1" reply macro for your posts. Thanks for your input.

[OpenFlash]

I think the problem is that many people don't understand the technology. A reflash, regardless of the transport device (handheld programmer, a tuner at a shop using their laptop, a BMW diagnostic computer, etc,.) simply re-writes data stored in flash memory. It cannot rewrite data stored in non-flash memory locations. That non-flash data is, for all practical purposes, permanent. Things that are stored in flash memory ARE DESIGNED to be updated periodically (calibration data/maps, traditional flash counters, service interval data, etc,.) This makes it convenient for aftermarket tuners who want to revise the data that relates to engine tuning. It's clean and simple. The only technical hurdles are learning the encryption keys (think of it as a secret handshake) and to know where the the various fuel/ignition/boost/etc,. tables are located in the data. This information, for the most part, can be purchased if you look hard enough and have enough money to spend.

All aftermarket DME flash devices mimic the handshake process of the factory BMW coding tool. This information is usually leaked from Germany. And more than a few employees at BMW have lost their job/been sued by leaking this info. But once an aftermarket device is capable of satisfying the DME's communication protocols, the flash memory can be read and rewritten to one's hearts content.

But that is half the story. There is more than this flash memory on the DME. There are memory locations that cannot be erased or edited. Think of them as a scoreboard that just keeps getting updated but never reset/cleared. On this scoreboard is operating info used by BMW AG to keep track of how the car is being driven in (and how it is responding to) real world by real world customers. On this scoreboard, expect to see things like fault code memory, average fuel integrators, calculated average knock, max RPM, max roadspeed, max engine load and whatever else BMW wants to keep track of. Whether we like it or not.

Shiv

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by atlharry

Everyone re-read this. If this is the case, flashing back to stock wouldn't help as those values wouldn't be overwritten or updated. Realistically, the guys at COBB would be only ones that would be able to answer this.

We've known for some time the DME stores max rpm, vmax, load max, etc, in a hidden location. I've heard from a couple guys who got voided after doing a "money shift" revving the engine to 8000rpm and damaging parts. BT was working on finding the hidden location and coming up with a way to clear it but I don't believe they ever did. It's pretty locked down. Since it doesn't really effect the average piggyback user none of us have ever paid much attention to it. Flashing back to stock will definitely not clear it though. On the vmax remember each module also has a memory so that vmax being passed around the canbus is likely stored all over the place.

Mike

[Al Blue4.6l]

to clear up a potential incorrect implication in the above:

this "hidden data problem" is potentially faced by any sort of aftermarket modification and is certainly a problem for any sort of tune, whether it be flash, piggyback or whatever, correct?

[themyst]

If there truly is a non-flashable portion of the DME, then every Cobb AP stage 1 OTS map customer is at risk IMO.

If I'm not mistaken, the rev limit was raised to 7200RPM on the AP stage 1 map. Just like someone who got their warranty voided running the Procede Speed Delimiter feature, I'm sure someone could equally get their warranty voided for revving their motor beyond 7000 RPM.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Al Blue4.6l

to clear up a potential incorrect implication in the above:

this "hidden data problem" is potentially faced by any sort of aftermarket modification and is certainly a problem for any sort of tune, whether it be flash, piggyback or whatever, correct?

No, it only applies to tuning approaches that don't shield the DME from recording out-of-range engine data.

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

No, it only applies to tuning approaches that don't shield the DME from recording out-of-range engine data.

straight and to the point..

[atlharry]

Originally Posted by shifterboy45

straight and to the point..

It was quite a nice edit, IMO

[Sakebomb]

Subscribed

[gidiup]

Originally Posted by atlharry

modding is pay to play. always has been

Been mod'd for 20 years. Completely understand risk vs reward. Just want to be completed educated before pulln the trigger. If a vendor says this.... I will be prepared for this. Just don't want this and then it's that.

Tell me what to expect. All I'm sayn

Where is Cobb?

[boom]

Sounds like a bunch of smoke and mirrors from a guy making his living selling piggybacks who is scared to death of the new flash on the block if you ask me...

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by boom

Sounds like a bunch of smoke and mirrors from a guy making his living selling piggybacks who is scared to death of the new flash on the block if you ask me...

lol, hopefully you dont get banned for this

[Jake@MOTIV]

Originally Posted by Clap135

lol, hopefully you dont get banned for this

lol - memories

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by boom

Sounds like a bunch of smoke and mirrors from a guy making his living selling piggybacks who is scared to death of the new flash on the block if you ask me...

this whole "discussion" started with a question I posed,
not a vendor.

my question was legitimate... and not intended to sway customers or create pandimonium.

[BzzzBom]

IMO the quality of any tune, flash or piggyback, is inversely proportional to the number of vendor posts that justify their own tune or criticize the competition.