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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Dinan Software Warning...bad tuners.



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      01-16-2008, 01:54 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by WilyB View Post
Jim: did you do the DINAN flash?
Just asking because DINAN seeked to private label the PROcede and now you suddenly pop up on that thread. May be just a coincidence.
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      01-16-2008, 01:57 PM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335iBaller View Post
how much is the middle exhaust and intercooler going to be? or just a rough estimate.. cuz im already down for the middle exhaust!!!! =D which headquaters u work at orb? The one in mountain view or the other one? ive been checking day in day out at the website waiting for the middle exhaust (downpipes) and intercooler since the day i installed my flash and exhaust!

how long will it take for the cold air intake?
hmm...normal price for an aftermarket midpipe for a BMW 400-500 so considering Dinan factor of 2-3 times normal equals low of 800 to as high as 1500 I would say. Also IC should be around 1000-1200 so probably 2000-2400.
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      01-16-2008, 01:57 PM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
To be fair, this can theoretically be done with a reflash. There isn't too much stopping tuner from posting multiple encrypted ROM files (for different levels of modifications) on their website while providing the user with a upload device. This has been done in the past. But usually it is keyed to the upload device and additional cost is incurred by the customer.

We have, in the past, emailed ROM files to Subaru and Evo customers for them to upload using borrowed or purchased flash programming cables. Nice but still not as convenient as it can be.

Shiv
I know a German BMW tuner and bought some ECU-flashes for previous cars from him and he applied his changes directly to the current ECU software version. The flash counter stayed intact. A "master" ECU flash file will not respect the latest OEM changes or regional versions. A piggypack does due to it's nature. How did you handle this with your ECU-flashes, Shiv ?
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      01-16-2008, 02:22 PM   #268
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Shiv..

Let's go over these items one by one.

Note that most of the things you are talking about are best handled by a
proper and complete stand-alone ECU on a car which would be "track only"
by both design and local/state/federal law.

Quote:
drive additional injectors
Why would you want to drive additional injectors? adding additional injectors
would blow the emissions certification of the vehicle. Note however, that if
I want(ed) to offer additional injector drives - I could easily use the spare
outputs of the MSD80 to do so.

It would be far better to use larger DI Injectors, modify the high-pressure
fuel system to handle that - and reprogram the ECU thusly.

Quote:
control methanol spray
Again.. see above

Quote:
provide active lean-run protection
Actually built into the ECU itself - it sees AFR and knock and control both the
injector pressure and duration AND the ignition timing/dwell directly.

Quote:
be realtime user configurable
This is a very very bad idea for most all users. How many people have a
lab-grade lambda sensor in their downpipe? Properly mapped a single ECU
tune can account for a wide range of fuel qualities. (I'm speaking of course
of unleaded fuels - usually 85 to 110 AKI or thereabouts)

Quote:
offer launch control
Completely doable. It's software.

Quote:
on-the-fly map switch
Again, completely doable, but why? One map can easily cover all the realistic
fuel you are going to see on the street... this is after all a STREET car.

(Note that I am bound by Federal and State laws - just like you are, whether
or not you recognize that fact - that state what can and cannot be done to
an emissions-certified motor vehicle.)

Quote:
be removable with no effects to the flash counter
What flash "counter" ??

(There is actually no flash "counter" - and the limitation you speak of isn't
present on any Shark Injector to date)

Quote:
installable on another car with little or no additional cost
Don't see the benefit here - as it can only be installed on ONE car at a time,
unless you've found some quantum tunnel you've been keeping a secret

In short, most all of the "benefits" you've listed above CAN be accomplished
via changes to the software of the stock ECU - most of them however are
of little-to-no consequence for anyone running a 335i on the street.

The turbos themselves are a major limitation in the power output of the motor.
As are the thermal pathways in the block itself and the overall
sufficiency (or lack thereof) of the oil/water cooling system.

Jim
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      01-16-2008, 02:23 PM   #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilyB View Post
Just asking because DINAN seeked to private label the PROcede and now you suddenly pop up on that thread. May be just a coincidence.
Willy,

no offense intended - but you seem to be looking for conspiracies.

Jim
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      01-16-2008, 02:29 PM   #270
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It seems now the big boys play with the 335i

Welcome, Jim.
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      01-16-2008, 02:29 PM   #271
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Jim, you asked what a piggyback can do that a flash can't. Shiv gave you a list. Some of those are pretty darn useful. You might not think meth control, for example, is useful. But for some people that don't have access to high octane fuel it can be.

On-the-fly switchable maps can help if you want to do drag racing and want to switch to a higher boost map once you up to speed.

There are plenty people running with piggybacks with ZERO issues, no faults, good gas mileage, good driveability and throttle response, and running a a full second and 10mph quicker than when they were stock. I don't see a problem with that. Maybe a flash could do some of that. Maybe it could do all and then some. But the piggyback does all that when properly installed, configured and mapped.
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      01-16-2008, 02:30 PM   #272
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So...did you do the Dinan flash?
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      01-16-2008, 02:32 PM   #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e.n335 View Post
I know a German BMW tuner and bought some ECU-flashes for previous cars from him and he applied his changes directly to the current ECU software version. The flash counter stayed intact.
Well, I'm not Shiv (looks in mirror)

but...

This is exactly why we invented the Shark Injector.

An example would be the N54 engine - which as of right now (Progman 28)
can be run by more than 25 different "versions" of software in the USA alone.

Every BMW engine or engine family is just like this

Jim
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      01-16-2008, 02:35 PM   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fedinand View Post
So...did you do the Dinan flash?
Is the Dinan flash delivered by a Shark Injector?
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      01-16-2008, 02:39 PM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lndshrk View Post
Is the Dinan flash delivered by a Shark Injector?
In a 335 application, what would your flash offer? I assume 1stly boost increase of course. Fuelling in accordance with the boost increase. Timing adjustments. Maybe cam timing, VANOS adjustments? And all of this would lead to a pretty good, reliable, safe tune with a considerable increase over stock from a flash. Am I right so far?
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      01-16-2008, 02:44 PM   #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M View Post
On-the-fly switchable maps can help if you want to do drag racing and want to switch to a higher boost map once you up to speed.
Why would you want to "switch" maps - wouldn't you rather just program
the map to increase boost at a certain RPM or vehicle speed?

Also, while I'm not familiar with the law in ZA, I can tell you with certainly that
methanol injection isn't legal for street cars anywhere in the USA where I
hang my hat. This is the law I have to deal with.

The law here is quite succinct. Once you have DE-certified a car by doing
something like removing a cat or running leaded race fuel - you can't then
just put the parts back on or change the fuel and pretend nothing happened.

While an owner MIGHT be able to get away with that - a tuner who does will
soon find himself in the sights of the USEPA and/or CARB enforcement.

Jim
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      01-16-2008, 02:46 PM   #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M View Post
In a 335 application, what would your flash offer? I assume 1stly boost increase of course. Fuelling in accordance with the boost increase. Timing adjustments. Maybe cam timing, VANOS adjustments? And all of this would lead to a pretty good, reliable, safe tune with a considerable increase over stock from a flash. Am I right so far?
Thanks for the questions - but this thread isn't about "my flash".

...and I'd rather not derail it in that direction.

I also don't talk (other than in generalities) about what any of my tunes do,
or how they accomplish what they accomplish.

Jim
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      01-16-2008, 02:53 PM   #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lndshrk View Post
Thanks for the questions - but this thread isn't about "my flash".

...and I'd rather not derail it in that direction.

I also don't talk (other than in generalities) about what any of my tunes do,
or how they accomplish what the accomplish.

Jim
I expect you will make the thread about "your flash" . Europe needs a solution as well ...
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      01-16-2008, 03:02 PM   #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lndshrk View Post
Why would you want to "switch" maps - wouldn't you rather just program
the map to increase boost at a certain RPM or vehicle speed?
Because you might want the full boost a lot earlier for everyday driving or "roll-on" runs, or circuit racing, but not necessarily want all the boost until a certain speed in a drag racing scenario. You could do this, by pulling over and loading a new map once you finish your drag racing session, but every time you get to a stoplight and want to run someone, you would need to load up the standind start file again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lndshrk View Post
Also, while I'm not familiar with the law in ZA, I can tell you with certainly that
methanol injection isn't legal for street cars anywhere in the USA where I
hang my hat.

No laws on this side, but even if there were, you could substitute water for meth and be legal with a slight performance decrease but still a substantial detonation reduction over a stock car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lndshrk View Post
Thanks for the questions - but this thread isn't about "my flash".
Jim
Fair enough. The point is you could provide a good tune. A piggyback can also do that. As can be seen by plenty guys on this forum running the tune for 30K miles with no issues. I'm not saying a flash can't do that. I'm sure it can as well. You say there are some things a flash can do that a piggyback can't. And there are also some things a piggyback can do that a flash can't. Of course each camp is going to say whatever they can't do is not necessary. At the end of the day, we need to decide what we need and see if that tuning solution provides it. Some of my cars I needed rev-limiter increase and speed-governor removal and there was no piggyback that could do that. So I had to have those cars flashed.

On my 335 I would like switchable maps as I do lots of different types of motorsport. I would like meth control, as we don't have the greatest octane here and it's not illegal. I would like a speed governor removal. You get the point, you choose the tuning method based on what it can provide to you.
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      01-16-2008, 03:09 PM   #280
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in the end, you are getting more than what you started with.. isn't that the whole point of these performance parts??.. I may be a novice at these stuff, but that's just my opinion.. an extra +5-+15 hp is not going to make a big difference.. seeing as how that is the difference when I compared the results from the topics I seen between Procede and Dinan.. Procede seems to be the winner.. but just by a little.. unless it provides a +50 or more hp boost, then you may be able to tell..

I'm leaning more towards Dinan now because of my lack of expertise in tuning cars.. but if someone can show me how to install everything for Procede (I live in Los Angeles).. that would be great.. I can purchase it (both the software + catback exhaust too).. I'll pay for the installation.. 2 hours it says??
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      01-16-2008, 03:16 PM   #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lndshrk View Post
Why would you want to "switch" maps - wouldn't you rather just program
the map to increase boost at a certain RPM or vehicle speed?
While an owner MIGHT be able to get away with that - a tuner who does will
soon find himself in the sights of the USEPA and/or CARB enforcement.

Jim
Changing octane specific, valet, stock, etc maps on the fly. You see no need or benefit of that? You are saying that a generic all octane inclusive map will make as much power as car running a "race" map tuned for 100oct?

Citing carb as a reason not to use meth? I find that a bit odd. Didn't you collaborate on a flash for cars running catless for a company based in California? Hmm...

Last edited by astris; 01-16-2008 at 03:39 PM..
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      01-16-2008, 03:21 PM   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lndshrk View Post
Unfortunately that is an impossible wish.

(Something about.. if wishes were horses.. then paupers would ride)

Piggybacks were used on the 335i because no one could GET into the ECU.

The ECU is secured with 2 RSA keys, a 512 bit and a 1024 bit.

It uses a secure Tricore microprocessor.

Well, now the best tuners CAN get into the box.

(I could give you a 3 page post-doc level dissertation on this - only to waste
the next 5 weeks defending it from attack by people - I won't - my time is far
too valuable )

So, I'll just say this and leave it.

A piggyback cannot do what a reflash does.

It will never happen.

End.

I'm not going to get into the back and forth here - suffice to say that the
advice given by Dinan (in essence "pick one") is solid advice.

VERY solid advice.

Jim C.
Party is over...welcome to the "days-of-our-tuner-lives." It is great to see a new perspective and information on things around here. Thanks for the input I am taking notes
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      01-16-2008, 03:23 PM   #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lndshrk View Post
Is the Dinan flash delivered by a Shark Injector?

May be, some dealers, when you see DINAN pricing, are like loan sharks!

Anyway Jim, I do not care and it's none of my business. If you did, that would increase my confidence in that reflash as I stated somewhere above, I love your reflash for our M3.
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      01-16-2008, 03:39 PM   #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astris View Post
That's not what he's talking about with multiple maps... but I think you already know that. Changing octane specific, valet, stock, etc maps on the fly is what he is referring to. You see no need or benefit of that? You are saying that a generic all octane inclusive map will make as much power as car running a "race" map tuned for 100oct?
there is no need to change maps for Octane. it is very easy to make one
map work for varying octane levels as the ECU knows what AKI equivalent
of fuel is in the tank in short order.

Valet/etc is easily handled and you don't need to modify maps to do it.

A few datapoints maybe - but not a map.

Quote:
Citing carb as a reason not to use meth? I find that a bit odd.
Yes, siting the LAW as a reason - if you find that odd, maybe you ought to
JFGI - specifically the consent decree involving Casper's Electronics.

(Using them only as a quick example)

Oh here - I'm a nice guy

http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resour.../casper-cd.pdf

Now, which one of you (who lives in the USA) wants to tell me the law "don't
matter" or "you'll never get caught". Take a look at the terms of that "consent
decree".

You guys still think "the law" is a joke?

Quote:
Didn't you collaborate on a flash for cars running catless for a company based in California? Hmm...
We have NEVER tuned or produced or sold a tune to disable catalysts on
a street car - EVER. We also tune race cars - so don't confuse the two!!

Of course, that's your intent - isn't it astris.

Jim

PS: I'm still trying to find the place for methanol injection on a stock N54 with
the stock turbos. The stock ECU also "won't handle" Nitromethane use, but
then again, I really don't see the need for CH3NO2 in a 335i.
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      01-16-2008, 03:50 PM   #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lndshrk View Post
Unfortunately that is an impossible wish.

(Something about.. if wishes were horses.. then paupers would ride)

Piggybacks were used on the 335i because no one could GET into the ECU.

The ECU is secured with 2 RSA keys, a 512 bit and a 1024 bit.

It uses a secure Tricore microprocessor.

Well, now the best tuners CAN get into the box.

(I could give you a 3 page post-doc level dissertation on this - only to waste
the next 5 weeks defending it from attack by people - I won't - my time is far
too valuable )

So, I'll just say this and leave it.

A piggyback cannot do what a reflash does.

It will never happen.

End.

I'm not going to get into the back and forth here - suffice to say that the
advice given by Dinan (in essence "pick one") is solid advice.

VERY solid advice.

Jim C.
Thank God Jim...

11+ pages and finally some accurate DME information. I have been trying to stay quiet in all this. I am both glad and disappointed you ended up having to post the truth. I know you hate getting involved in these things.

For the rest, Jim C and I have gone through a lot of discussions both good and bad. But I will tell anyone who asks... he knows these DMEs better than 99.9999999% of the global population outside the walls of Seimens. I have learned a ton from him and respect him immensely. He deserves it.

For this discussion: If people think that all a GREAT tuner does is change maps in the MSD80 or any other family of DME, then the arguement can sway one way or another. Ive seen plenty of "good" tuning, however, there are but a few GREAT tuners like Jim and one or two others. But for the rest to understand, it is simply software, with written functions that utilize and interpret the simple ROM "tables" Shiv refers to... and a GREAT tuner can modify those functions to suit the needs at hand from secondary output channels to water pump operation to switchable boost/throttle/spark control mapping. It is all possible.

End result, if you know what you are doing with MSD80, ever seen a DAMOS or A2L file, and understand a LOT about the new TC processor and its interfacing, great DME tuning can FAR outperform any piggyback safer, quicker, and more efficiently. I believe the DME could easily match or exceed the highest numbers seen on any piggyback. The real question is... is that a good idea when it comes to reliability, longevity, turbo lifespan, thermal loading, downright driavability, and a slew of other considerations. It is NOT all about the power. This is still the M54 engine with a different head on it and most people wouldn't go over ~8.5psi on the old M54. Now, it's all of a sudden ok to run 14+ and give control to the end user? Wow... just wow.

Regardless, Jim, I give you props for continuing on with the MSD80... I thought you were ready to retire on the back of your motorcycle?
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      01-16-2008, 04:07 PM   #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lndshrk View Post
there is no need to change maps for Octane. it is very easy to make one
map work for varying octane levels as the ECU knows what AKI equivalent
of fuel is in the tank in short order.
It's certainly possible for a flash to be effectively adaptable for a wide range of octane (91oct all the way to 104oct). I just haven't seen it. That said, I would never expect an ECU to recognize race gas and automatically induce a 50-60whp power increase. It's one adapt to race gas on an NA car that would gain 5-10whp through adaptive timing advance and fuel trim. Whole other situation with a turbo car. If you can conjure up an ECU that does just that, more power to you.

Quote:
PS: I'm still trying to find the place for methanol injection on a stock N54 with
the stock turbos. The stock ECU also "won't handle" Nitromethane use, but
then again, I really don't see the need for CH3NO2 in a 335i.
The cooling effects of methanol is enormous. Worth a substantial bump in VE just by his virtue alone. Throw in the effective octane increase and you have one hell of a fuel to burn. It's no surprise that methanol injected turbo engines routinely make more power than engines running on straight race gas. They also run a lot cooler. This is the reason why turbocharged drag cars running pure methanol don't even need intercoolers for charge cooling. The other advantage of running methanol injection comes when you are running close to the limits of the fuel system. Of course, incorporating methanol-specific safety features like leanrun-induced boost cuts comes in handy when relying on a single jet for fuel enrichment. This is one reasons piggybacks make sense. I haven't seen a remapped ECU come anywhere close to offering this level of functionality. One can certainly say it is capable of this. But I haven't seen it.

Shiv
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