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      04-05-2011, 11:44 AM   #1
wayne71
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BMW AG checking for tuned vehicles

Just a heads up for people. Last week my car went in for warranty work and initially I was told it wasn't covered due to my car being flagged as 'tuned' on their system. It has only been in once before (under my ownership) and on that occasion it wasn't flagged as tuned.

On both occasions the car went in with the original map.

Obviously as my car wasn't tuned I kicked up a fuss and the warranty work was done.

However I have received an email from BMW UK

An extract

"A system is being developed to identify vehicles which have had non approved performance chips fitted, as this may have contributed to the failure of genuine BMW components on the vehicle.

This system is in development within BMW AG. The BMW Dealer Network are aware of this issue and that the indicator is appearing on a number of unaffected vehicles."

It seems that along with finding tuned vehicles they are also adding these flags to unaffected vehicles in error.

These tuned cars are not being found by the dealers over here it seems that techs in Germany are reviewing diagnostic information that gets uploaded to their database when you take your car into a dealer.

I'm not sure if its old news or not but thought it was worth mentioning.
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      04-05-2011, 01:11 PM   #2
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Still good to know. It may well impact my decission before the extended warrantee expires.
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      04-05-2011, 01:35 PM   #3
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Sounds like 'Big Brother' to me
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      04-05-2011, 01:44 PM   #4
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Most of the tuners will find another way of hiding the map, Some are better than others we had the same on the Focus ST they released an update to knock out the OBD port so you could flash tune, The way around that was found with in 2 days.

It's worth remembering this when they question you at the dealers, In the past I have taken remapped cars back to the dealers and nothing was said, clear BMW are trying to get clever and some how track remapped cars.
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      04-05-2011, 02:08 PM   #5
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Thanks for the heads up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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      04-05-2011, 02:09 PM   #6
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This is indeed old news.

And the problem with remapping the EEPROMs.

Unlike a removable box, where you just delete any standing codes, you leave an audit trail.

Dont believe anyone who tells you it doesnt, the whole raft of access data, trim values and checksums will give the software away to the expert software developer.

Dont forget, if you can write a map in, you can often read it back out....
How do you think the Police Investigation chaps analyse a MCU for modified software? (I know for fact they can and do)

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      04-05-2011, 02:12 PM   #7
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Can't really blame them can you - why should they have to maintain warranty coverage where a vehicle has been tuned to produce more power than standard, and thus its engine, turbos and drive train are subjected to more stress and heat than standard etc?

Interesting how some people have no shame in simply removing a tune and then claiming the car is stock and whining to BMW about their rights to warranty coverage.

My car is tuned and I accept that I pay to play.
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      04-05-2011, 02:45 PM   #8
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This sounds fair enough.
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      04-05-2011, 04:14 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FazerBoy View Post
Can't really blame them can you - why should they have to maintain warranty coverage where a vehicle has been tuned to produce more power than standard, and thus its engine, turbos and drive train are subjected to more stress and heat than standard etc?

Interesting how some people have no shame in simply removing a tune and then claiming the car is stock and whining to BMW about their rights to warranty coverage.

My car is tuned and I accept that I pay to play.
Lots of people (myself included) would have no shame in claiming anything they can off a stealer. Its not like your taking something from a poor chap running a small indy backstreet garage.

They are not exactly honest themselves, they added a note to my file saying the warranty wasn't valid, didn't notify me yet kept taking the money for the warranty every month.
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      04-05-2011, 04:16 PM   #10
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What about the dealers that are genuinely doing a good job though?

They aren't all backstabbing villains.
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      04-05-2011, 04:27 PM   #11
wayne71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m1bjr View Post
This is indeed old news.

And the problem with remapping the EEPROMs.

Unlike a removable box, where you just delete any standing codes, you leave an audit trail.

Dont believe anyone who tells you it doesnt, the whole raft of access data, trim values and checksums will give the software away to the expert software developer.

Dont forget, if you can write a map in, you can often read it back out....
How do you think the Police Investigation chaps analyse a MCU for modified software? (I know for fact they can and do)

Quick question, if BMW do a software upgrade would this wipe out any evidence of it being mapped or is this data stored regardless.
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      04-05-2011, 04:58 PM   #12
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does anyone know if a remap leaves a time and date stamp? With so many cars in the 2nd hand market is it possible for dealers to identify when a map is done?
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      04-05-2011, 05:14 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335diesel View Post
What about the dealers that are genuinely doing a good job though?
What about those of us who don't tune ..... Paying for all the morally bereft tuning cheats. No sympathy. Pay to play.

D.
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      04-05-2011, 05:25 PM   #14
wayne71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_3 View Post
What about those of us who don't tune ..... Paying for all the morally bereft tuning cheats. No sympathy. Pay to play.

D.
Morally bereft? Get a grip. What exactly are you paying extra for? Its car tuning not tax dodging.

This was simply a thread to warn people who do tune and for those who may get flagged in error.
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      04-05-2011, 05:39 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne71 View Post
Morally bereft? Get a grip. What exactly are you paying extra for? Its car tuning not tax dodging.

This was simply a thread to warn people who do tune and for those who may get flagged in error.
Let's not kid ourselves, warranties don't come for free, so we all pay. Extended warrantiies are insured warranties, so the premium is higher, like any insurance, to allow for those abusing the system, so the good guys do pay.

How can it be viewed any different?

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      04-05-2011, 05:53 PM   #16
wayne71
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Lets not kid ourselves indeed, lets say your car was mapped and you were faced with a 2k bill that BMW were willing to pay, would you hand the cash over and say "sorry old chap I can't let BMW pay for this as I've had it tuned"
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      04-05-2011, 06:09 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne71 View Post
Lets not kid ourselves indeed, lets say your car was mapped and you were faced with a 2k bill that BMW were willing to pay, would you hand the cash over and say "sorry old chap I can't let BMW pay for this as I've had it tuned"
Why not ?

The option that they have to pay you under deception seems fine to you, but you find it incredulous to pay for it yourself when you knowingly break the warranty ?

It is as simple as that.

D.
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      04-06-2011, 02:16 AM   #18
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Is there now a general agreement that tuning does affect the long term reliability of our cars?
If not, then who can say the potential warranty issue has been caused by a re-map?
And if you can't say that, it can't be 'morally bereft' to remove the map just to ensure you get the required work done under the warranty.... can it?
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      04-06-2011, 03:30 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E92westy View Post
Is there now a general agreement that tuning does affect the long term reliability of our cars?
If not, then who can say the potential warranty issue has been caused by a re-map?
And if you can't say that, it can't be 'morally bereft' to remove the map just to ensure you get the required work done under the warranty.... can it?
The fact users hide the map at service and warranty time, indicates they know they are on sticky ground.

Best test is is ask BMW if a map breaks the 'terms and conditions', then we know the score.

It is not really to do with the car's reliability (or not) with maps, but BMW do have the right to set the terms and conditions, for what qualifies as a warranty claim.

I've been in business where we set the terms and conditions for our product. Totally different attitude to those who used a product 'reasonably' to those who blatantly abused the product and expected us, as the manufacturer, to carry the costs...

Even with a map fitted, unrelated items should still be covered by warranty, but where there is a possibility (or probability) that it is related, then the 'play and pay' can be the only honest and fair approach. But as I said before, the good guys will be contributing to those who abuse the terms and conditions, there is no free lunch, and it won't be BMW's profit line that pays, I assure you.

Remember car insurance and a reason we pay so much, partly to fund those who abuse the system.

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      04-06-2011, 04:04 AM   #20
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I agree with Fazer, TrackRat, Dave and Highland.

BMW are well within their rights to look for a map/tune and throw out any claims that can be attributed to it.

It's fine if you want to run a tune but when something breaks because of it don't expect someone else to shell out for it.

Wayne, what you are suggesting is tantamount to fraud. There's no two ways about it. It doesn't matter how large/rich the organisation

As has already been explained, warranties ARE NOT FREE! The cost of a warranty is carefully calculated component of the retail price of a car. It's a gamble for sure but it's a calculated gamble based on various statistics about component failures etc. Sometimes the manufacturer wins and sometimes the customer wins.

E92Westy,

Say you're running a tune and a turbo dies. How would you go about proving that the tune did not contribute to the turbo? Now, you may say you're not an engineer but even if you were, it's a can of worms mate I can tell you. Did increased boost pressure cause it? Bearing problem? Lubrication problem? Manufacturing defect in the structure of the turbo? It's a whole world of pain. The cost of analysing the unit to figure it out would be pretty high I reckon. For what? Your warranty claim? Easier just to blanket state that any car running an unofficial tune/map is not covered for engine/drive-train failures (yes, gearboxes and diffs can be lunched by running inappropriate levels of torque/power).

If the car has no tune then it's easy. BMW are at fault and have to swallow the cost. The chances are they will run an analysis on the failed unit so they can improve their service/manufacturing processes.
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      04-06-2011, 05:51 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne71 View Post
Lots of people (myself included) would have no shame in claiming anything they can off a stealer. Its not like your taking something from a poor chap running a small indy backstreet garage.

They are not exactly honest themselves, they added a note to my file saying the warranty wasn't valid, didn't notify me yet kept taking the money for the warranty every month.

Plus one!!!!!


and regarding car insurance aswell!!!! ...I don't know why some people think that its "normal" to pay such high price or premium what ever you call it....and the "excuse" ohhh its because there are other customers abusing the system!....so the insurance companies "charges everyone a higher premium" to stay in business....
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      04-06-2011, 07:40 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E92westy View Post
Is there now a general agreement that tuning does affect the long term reliability of our cars?
If not, then who can say the potential warranty issue has been caused by a re-map?
Point 1. Whether your tune has affected the running or reliability of your car can be discussed. BMW will have extensive testing and quality control carried out by themselves with masses of statistical and empirical data, while most buyers of tunes have to take the word of the tuning company that their encroaching on the tolerances will be fine. But it cannot be denied that upping power and torque through the engine and drive train WILL have an effect.

Point 2. But that is not really relevant when the manufacturers warranty is only valid on the car as built by BMW. You modify the car you break the warranty for that part (or associated parts). We ALL understand that.

The fact that some are trying to hide their tunes shows that even they understand that they are breaking point 2. Just because some want to debate Point 1. doesn't absolve them from Point 2.

D.
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