[E60525d]

Originally Posted by MEGA

Absolutely top, top post.

Some of the "widely respected" tuners on here do nothing more than apply maps already developed by other people, and some of them wont even RR the car after to prove what you've gotten from it.

The likes of emaps you can't really fault for it. Simon charges a much lower price than certain companies so you can't complain at what you get (A very knowledgeable man giving you a map, but a map he's bought - and then not rolling it. I recommend Simon to alot of people who want a map and aren't interested in the specifics, but he's not a tuning company - he's a man with some maps ).

I'd ALWAYS expect MY car to have MY data read, analysed and written to. I don't care what values worked for the last guy who's car may have been driven a totally different way and therefore responds completely differently to MY car.

My maps have only ever been applied by way of a live map or tailored map. Meaning, take my stock data, RR the car, tweek the values, write it, RR the car, and tinker and tailer until both tuner and customer are happy.

My car beat that of a widely regarded (around here and a large M3 forum at least) mapped car at Santa pod 8 times in a row and was .2 faster overall (winning fastest diesel in class) even though the owner of that car (great guy, btw) was telling me how much better his map was and how it's been RRed at 370bhp. My "lowly" 346bhp 335d won 8 times in a row and that tells you the difference between honest tuning and copy pasted maps which are rollered in 4th !

I won't tell you who mapped mine in here, as I'm not willing to kick off a mudslinging battle. I'm simply writing facts and theres nothing more to it.

But yes. Top post from yourself sir. One of the most sensible pieces of writing I've ever seen on this forum in fact.


Dave

Another very good and informative post.

I definitely agree with you regarding power and torque output as most tuners try to win you over by quoting that there maps give higher figures than others. To me this is irrelevant as any old tuner can increase the power.

To me its about drive-ability and reliability. Ive seen many people show dyno graphs and one thing that i see most of the time is how peaky the figures are. Yes, they have got a good torque increase but most of the time this is only available for a few 100rpm and then there is a massive dropdown after.

I much rather have slightly lower figures and a flat torque curve available over more of the engine speed than outright maximum figures.

Its also good to see that the OP's tuner has taken the gearbox limit into consideration as most do not.

Mega, I see 1/4 times are important to you but to me and most people there not as they dont have much of an impact in the real world. Im not knocking your tuner but as mentioned before, increasing power is the easy part, driveability, reliability is the more difficult part.

[JTMR360]

Originally Posted by MEGA

I'd ALWAYS expect MY car to have MY data read, analysed and written to. I don't care what values worked for the last guy who's car may have been driven a totally different way and therefore responds completely differently to MY car.

My maps have only ever been applied by way of a live map or tailored map. Meaning, take my stock data, RR the car, tweek the values, write it, RR the car, and tinker and tailer until both tuner and customer are happy.
Dave

Yep, that's what has bee done to mine, my data, values adjusted.

[Dave_3]

Originally Posted by MEGA

I'd ALWAYS expect MY car to have MY data read, analysed and written to. I don't care what values worked for the last guy who's car may have been driven a totally different way and therefore responds completely differently to MY car.

What specific parts of "MY data" are you talking about exactly ? And why would you expect them to be meaningfully different to an identical car of the same age ? What does the analysis stage of your mapping process actually consist of ?

It is not like days of old, where there was certainly more variance in tolerances giving good and less good engines - most of these new cars will be pretty statistically consistent in end result. And wear and tear is not really an issue on a well maintained sensible mileage car.

And depending on how any learning adaptation is employed at any specific time (engine or transmission), how do you know the actual base line when on a RR ? That is not recorded in "MY data" is it ... or not ?

D.

[MEGA]

Originally Posted by E60525d

Mega, I see 1/4 times are important to you but to me and most people there not as they dont have much of an impact in the real world. Im now knocking your tuner but as mentioned before, increasing power is the easy part, driveability, reliability is the more difficult part.

Oh I completely agree.

I actually asked for torque above BHP, but a smooth curve. Which is what I got:



It was made very clear to me that more BHP was achievable but I set a hard torque limit of 500 ft/lb because I want driveability and reliability. Specifically, I don't want a £4k bill for an unwarrantied auto box!

Driven for over a year with no fault codes, no headaches - and bags of power.

That ON TOP of the very quick 60 ft, 0-60 and quarter (some of this could be down to the driver ) and I'm happy.

No way I'd have gotten as good a result from any company applying a generic remap..


Dave

[MEGA]

Originally Posted by Dave_3

What specific parts of "MY data" are you talking about exactly ? And why would you expect them to be meaningfully different to an identical car of the same age ? What does the analysis stage of your mapping process actually consist of ?

It is not like days of old, where there was certainly more variance in tolerances giving good and less good engines - most of these new cars will be pretty statistically consistent in end result. And wear and tear is not really an issue on a well maintained sensible mileage car.

And depending on how any learning adaptation is employed at any specific time (engine or transmission), how do you know the actual base line when on a RR ? That is not recorded in "MY data" is it ... or not ?

D.

In my case, Car is rolled 5 or 6 times both before and after. Adaption not reset beforehand as that's another great way to get a headline figure (lower bhp directly after an adaption reset meaning bigger performance difference).
ps, I'm not a tuner. If ever I talk bollocks when explaining things it's because I'm trying to remember a complex subject about which I only know the absolute base facts (at best)!!!

I'd imagine that driving my car a few weeks with the way I drive and then getting it rollered again would show slightly higher power now than I had in the graph I just posted.

But my point I think is getting absorbed by your question. I simply want a tailored map: Not one bought in or taken from another car. There's no real room for discussion on this. If that's not what you'd want from a map fair enoguh and I'm not putting any tuners down. As I said Simon for example I recommend to mostly everyone as I know everyone who uses him is happy. At the prices he charges you can't complain

There's no way I'd accept that service when paying £450 or even more though. I'd expect the full process, without any shortcuts, once in that territory..

Dave

[idnan]

Originally Posted by MEGA

That ON TOP of the very quick 60 ft, 0-60 and quarter (some of this could be down to the driver ) and I'm happy.

Out of interest, what was the quarter time?

[Dave_3]

Originally Posted by MEGA

But my point I think is getting absorbed by your question. I simply want a tailored map: Not one bought in or taken from another car. There's no real room for discussion on this.

There is actually discussion on that.

You still haven't said what exactly you expect to differ between cars, and what is adjusted to "tailor" it for you.

If you can't answer that - then you are only supplying subjective opinions.

I don't mean to be pedantic over this, but I work in an industry where we have many tests running, and need to see clear objective, repeatable measurement data that must stand up to meticulous peer review.

It looks to me from your opinion, you seem to think that there is enough variance between standard cars to warrant a "tailored" map. I am simply asking what you base that on ? And what exactly is adjusted - is this tweaking value a single variable that is used or a collection of them ?

What exactly was tailored on your map - how does it differ from the base map ?

I'm not knocking what you say - I am just curious.

D.

[MEGA]

Originally Posted by Dave_3

There is actually discussion on that.

You still haven't said what exactly you expect to differ between cars, and what is adjusted to "tailor" it for you.

If you can't answer that - then you are only supplying subjective opinions.

I don't mean to be pedantic over this, but I work in an industry where we have many tests running, and need to see clear objective, repeatable measurement data that must stand up to meticulous peer review.

It looks to me from your opinion, you seem to think that there is enough variance between standard cars to warrant a "tailored" map. I am simply asking what you base that on ? And what exactly is adjusted - is this tweaking value a single variable that is used or a collection of them ?

What exactly was tailored on your map - how does it differ from the base map ?

I'm not knocking what you say - I am just curious.

D.

I am not a tuner and how on earth would I know exactly what parameters are changed on the files. Even if a tuner is prepared to give away trade secrets I'd not understand them, I can always put you in touch with the guy who did my remap if you want specific parameters

however my point is, there's getting "something" and getting "the best out of something". Copy pasting someone else's efforts is never going to lead to as good a final result as the original individual working on perfecting their map for a specific car.

Whether you think that's a circumstantial opinion or not, I'd reiterate. Speak to a tuner. I'm not one.

[MEGA]

Originally Posted by idnan

Out of interest, what was the quarter time?

I managed low 13.1s

Carl has managed 13.0 in the DXB back in the day.

Carl is the master with these numbers but I don't believe we've ever seen a 12.x for a 335d in the UK?

My 60ft time was 1.9 seconds on the best runs which is extremely strong. That's where the torque wins. Unfortunately the lack of rev range means alot of lower torque but higher BHP petrol cars will win over a quarter still.

I was beating E46 M3s all day long but got my ass handed to me by Boz with his mapped 335i plus DCT

[Dave_3]

Originally Posted by MEGA

I am not a tuner and how on earth would I know exactly what parameters are changed on the files. Even if a tuner is prepared to give away trade secrets I'd not understand them, I can always put you in touch with the guy who did my remap if you want specific parameters

however my point is, there's getting "something" and getting "the best out of something". Copy pasting someone else's efforts is never going to lead to as good a final result as the original individual working on perfecting their map for a specific car.

Whether you think that's a circumstantial opinion or not, I'd reiterate. Speak to a tuner. I'm not one.

I am not asking for specifics.

You appear to be convinced you got a better map than a base line map for that model. That would suggest that there are parameters that can be adjusted in the base map to somehow increase power (and driveability ?).

Are the fluctuations in these values so marked between different cars of the same model which use identical electronics ? Which seems to be the case if the base map (which will be pasted to your car from a reference file) cannot be specced accurately enough for you in the first place.

You claim to be getting "the best out of something" and to be using the best process - but have no real empirical data whatsoever to back that up.

Purely subjective, then ?

I'm just trying to understand your conviction. As a customer.

D.

[MEGA]

Originally Posted by Dave_3

I am not asking for specifics.

You appear to be convinced you got a better map than a base line map for that model. That would suggest that there are parameters that can be adjusted in the base map to somehow increase power (and driveability ?).

Are the fluctuations in these values so marked between different cars of the same model which use identical electronics ? Which seems to be the case if the base map (which will be pasted to your car from a reference file) cannot be specced accurately enough for you in the first place.

You claim to be getting "the best out of something" and to be using the best process - but have no real empirical data whatsoever to back that up.

Purely subjective, then ?

I'm just trying to understand your conviction. As a customer.

D.

Heh.

Horses for courses then. You enjoy the stolen map pasted to your car and not proven via any real means, if that's how you feel (If...)

I'm simply saying a more thorough process is likely to lead to better results.

I'd also far further trust the expertise should any issues arise with the car in future of a tuner who's done all the hard work themselves over someone who simply knows how to read/write to the correct part of a chip.

Maybe I'm a fool for marketing, who knows.

What I take umbridge to is when you get "Mr Copy Paste" charging the same money as someone who will spend all day doing a job just for you - purely because of the power of their brand (or their customers loyalty). I've no issue with cheaper remaps when they are cheaper. I still feel the service I recieved to be better though.

The other side of things, is if it wasn't for the experienced tuners working on files - there'd be no one for the cowboys to copy. Then the industry would die and wed all lose. So I suppose the first point of contact, the one actually doing the work - and not someone who's found a nice modified file on a customer car and stored it so they can copy paste it onto the next 100 cars that come in.

Sooo. Not sure where the real questions are, and which are pointed statements (if any)..
This is my subjective opinion which I obviously cannot quantify in real terms, as you've already pointed out. I am being honest with my opinion, not factually verbose. If you want a pure response to your questions I'll PM you the details for my tuner - whom I clearly simply agree with the mantra of (for whatever reasons).

Dave

[Dave_3]

Originally Posted by MEGA

Heh.

Horses for courses then. You enjoy the stolen map pasted to your car and not proven via any real means, if that's how you feel (If...)

What I take umbridge to is when you get "Mr Copy Paste" charging the same money as someone who will spend all day doing a job just for you - purely because of the power of their brand (or their customers loyalty). I've no issue with cheaper remaps when they are cheaper. I still feel the service I recieved to be better though.

I have not added any map to my car, and have no vested interest in any map supplier. If I do consider it, I'll take you up on your offer of the contact.

I agree with you fully, I would like code that came through proper channels from the creator - bought.

I have never suggested using a stolen map - instead I automatically assumed that any company offering a map had a direct 2-way channel with the creator (and any updates/improvements), and didn't just steal it ? Are you intimating that some of the companies just hawk stolen code ?

But I wouldn't have expected a large number of specalist coders fully conversant with the intricacies of BMW systems and how to "crack" them either, to be honest. The sources for these maps must only be from a few, at most, very skilled people.

D.

[MEGA]

!!! I wouldn't dare insinuate that anyone in particular had stolen remap data!

But it certainly goes on, it simply must. I just am not saying that any of the big companies do this. I'd not dare make sure a bold accusation without any evidence and think this is somewhat off the original topic of the post so we'd better leave it be

In any case I imagine that anyone with a name worth anything will be buying the tuned files. This is certainly the case with Simon and I really hope no one drew the conclusion otherwise. He knows exactly what he's doing, does it above board, and does a great job as well.

But I still see writing a map originally as a skill and talent that I'd fall back on far beyond that of being able to apply a map and understand the process. Letalone the costs those guys go through with trying to keep as close behind the manufacturers as possible when the methods to write to an ECU are constantly changing.

But I can see this point blowing up when it wasn't what I meant to imply (if I did so ) so thought I'd better clarify it quick time

I'd rather leave it here

[philmots]

Originally Posted by Hotcoupe

So the Guy you use writes his own maps?

Yes 100%

[philmots]

Originally Posted by E60525d

Another very good and informative post.

I definitely agree with you regarding power and torque output as most tuners try to win you over by quoting that there maps give higher figures than others. To me this is irrelevant as any old tuner can increase the power.

To me its about drive-ability and reliability. Ive seen many people show dyno graphs and one thing that i see most of the time is how peaky the figures are. Yes, they have got a good torque increase but most of the time this is only available for a few 100rpm and then there is a massive dropdown after.

I much rather have slightly lower figures and a flat torque curve available over more of the engine speed than outright maximum figures.

Its also good to see that the OP's tuner has taken the gearbox limit into consideration as most do not.

Mega, I see 1/4 times are important to you but to me and most people there not as they dont have much of an impact in the real world. Im not knocking your tuner but as mentioned before, increasing power is the easy part, driveability, reliability is the more difficult part.

This is exactly why you should go to a tuner who writes their own maps. You can go in and say exactly what you want.

My tuner will have a base map he's written for a 335d.. He will then tailor this to exactly what the customer wants. If you're after high figures that's what you'll get, if you want really smooth lines then you'll get less power. You can have whatever because the tuner has the knowledge to change suitable parameters.

For reference.. When I'm booked in for a map its a half day slot. Normally around 3 hours in which time you may do 5 writes and around 3 pulls per write on the RR. It's endlessly tweaked till its right and you don't leave till it is. This can not be done in 20 minutes by plugging in a laptop or switch unit.

Those 'bought in' maps may be cheaper but actual value for money is really pretty crap.

[mob17]

My head hurts. Ok so to make it clear, who has copy paste maps and who tailors with dyno runs?

I'm not looking to get my car remapped any time soon, would like to sort out the suspension before that. But when i do i am thinking of using BW Chiptune. He seems like a real genuine guy, but are their maps copies or tailored?

[Sword906]

I personally wasn't bothered about rolling road figures when I went to BW Chiptune and probably looking to reduce the cost of remap.

I was more interested in everyday drivability rather then track/race use.


The power and torque is there when I need it. The reality is I only really use the performance 5 percent of the time. The roads are too congested.

I personally wouldn't get a too aggressive remap and go between economy and performance. That is what is good about Jason at BW Chiptune. He doesn't do hype and delivers what is realistic

[nicktyler]

Just thought I would mention. I had Evolve do mine about 1 year ago and I went to their garage and they took the stiock map from my car and then spent 3 hrs and quite a few writes and goes on the dyno before I was given the car back.

I don't know exactly what they did but I assumed from the process it was a custom map. I just got a stage 2 from them and had to send my files back to be updated so not sure if that is generic/bought/custom.

Did the job though!

[Hotcoupe]

Originally Posted by MEGA

My guy does. I don't know about this guy's guy. I'd imagine Phil must know he does for sure before posting something such as he did.

As I wrote above, I highly recommend Simon for the service you get, as long as you go in with eyes open. He knows what he's doing.

But there are some very large tuning companies that just copy paste a map and charge twice the going rate for the privilege. Something we won't be able to put a stop to. Marketing is marketing and whilst there's a waiting list for work why change anything.

On that marketing point, and without naming any names: I think something interesting is to watch the F10 M5 market. Some companies are charging 1500 notes plus for a stage 1 F10 tune - and I can't see any difference whatsoever between that map and another company who's offering the same services for £699..

Eyes open!
What exactly are you inferring?

Simon (E-Maps) may well buy his in (maps) but he's no different to the vast majority of mappers out there,despite the fairy stories that do the rounds.

Simon at Emaps is just as capable of tweaking a map he's bought in as well as the next Guy,in fact I'd go as far as to say he's better than most.

Simon can give more BHP + torque if you want it,but he won't give you a map that's going to eventually leave your gearbox on the A23!

Why bother writing a map yourself,if you can buy a base one off the shelf.
As long as the Guy loading the map can manipulate/tailor the map to the driver's specifics,it's an irrelevance whether it was allegedly written by the Guy uploading it.

The suggestion that all bought in maps are poor value for money,is a load of bollocks.
Yes they can be poor value,if uploading a map from a laptop is all your after,but it's horses for courses.

Just because Simon doesn't have a r/r on the back of a trailer,his results,whether tailored or not are as good as,if not better than a Guy tailoring a bought in map whilst on the rollers.

As a matter of interest, one of the most well respected tuning companies out there uses bought in maps,which are then tailored to suit,which as already stated,is pretty much the same across the board.

I use people who have a reputation,most tuning companies can only look on green with envy at the reputation that Simon enjoys,there is no other company out there that can compete with what Simon offers in any respect,period.

[mistryn]

PhilM any chance you can pm me details of the guy you use?
Im on my phone at the moment and this new forum layout is not letting me pm

[E60525d]

Originally Posted by MEGA

Oh I completely agree.

I actually asked for torque above BHP, but a smooth curve. Which is what I got:



It was made very clear to me that more BHP was achievable but I set a hard torque limit of 500 ft/lb because I want driveability and reliability. Specifically, I don't want a £4k bill for an unwarrantied auto box!

Driven for over a year with no fault codes, no headaches - and bags of power.

That ON TOP of the very quick 60 ft, 0-60 and quarter (some of this could be down to the driver ) and I'm happy.

No way I'd have gotten as good a result from any company applying a generic remap..


Dave

Why is there is a dip at 3000rpm?

Originally Posted by MEGA

Heh.

Horses for courses then. You enjoy the stolen map pasted to your car and not proven via any real means, if that's how you feel (If...)

I'm simply saying a more thorough process is likely to lead to better results.

I'd also far further trust the expertise should any issues arise with the car in future of a tuner who's done all the hard work themselves over someone who simply knows how to read/write to the correct part of a chip.

Maybe I'm a fool for marketing, who knows.

What I take umbridge to is when you get "Mr Copy Paste" charging the same money as someone who will spend all day doing a job just for you - purely because of the power of their brand (or their customers loyalty). I've no issue with cheaper remaps when they are cheaper. I still feel the service I recieved to be better though.

The other side of things, is if it wasn't for the experienced tuners working on files - there'd be no one for the cowboys to copy. Then the industry would die and wed all lose. So I suppose the first point of contact, the one actually doing the work - and not someone who's found a nice modified file on a customer car and stored it so they can copy paste it onto the next 100 cars that come in.

Sooo. Not sure where the real questions are, and which are pointed statements (if any)..
This is my subjective opinion which I obviously cannot quantify in real terms, as you've already pointed out. I am being honest with my opinion, not factually verbose. If you want a pure response to your questions I'll PM you the details for my tuner - whom I clearly simply agree with the mantra of (for whatever reasons).

Dave

Unless you get a complete cowboy off ebay to tune your car, i dont think any tuner copies and paste files from other cars.

Someone correct me if im wrong but Emaps do not just copy and paste a map. The original file is taken from the car and them emailed to his tuner who modifies it and sent back where it is flashed back on the car. Again, this is referred as a custom map.

95% of tuners do it via this method. Most of the tuners inc Evolve, BW Chiptune, etc offer a remote switch service, so your saying that this will be copy and paste map?

[mob17]