[Wedge1967]

So for those who are newer members that might not know me, I've been around the block a few times. After winning the Tier 3 Tuner Shootout at Shift S3ctor in April, I took my car back to stock and had the turbos replaced.

I guess you could say after I was in the mood to try something different so I sold my PROcede and bought a COBB v2. As for OTS maps, the COBB wasn't very impressive and although I didn't really give it the chance it deserved as I'm sure with a bit of playing with ATR I could have pulled the rabbit out of the hat and got my car to perform to my liking... But I sold it and bought the OFT and quickly loaded up the Stage 1 maps which were very pleasing at first for OTS maps, but they were lacking in top end pull and ultimately the massive torque I had when running the PROcede.

Just a little information about current mods for those in question. VRSF 3" DPs, HPF 7" FMIC, ER CP with FORGE DVs, AFE Stage II Pro DCI, Aquamist HFS-4 PWM Methanol Injection with dual 1.0mm Standard Jets. Fuel is 50/50 e85 and 92 oct with 100% Methanol Injection. I was also the 1st car in North America to do the Alpina Flash.

Current Status ~ Car pulls really hard, but I'm not holding boost up top. Load doesn't seem to make a difference, and I'm getting overboost early on. This is a log of my Race_Map_v5.bin which I was able to finally get additional BT logs of today. So hopefully tomorrow I can sit down and review them so I can map out my WGDC and fix the overboost issues and target more boost up top. Big shout out to @Marv85 as I couldn't have BT logged without you buddy.

I know a lot of people bought the OFT and some people are also using BTF which both are using XDF files and tuning with TunerPro. If anyone is interested in sharing what they have done with table changes, please feel free to post information that might help. As I get my WGDC under control, I'll share more information with regard to my tables, but as you can see, I'm targeting 15 deg advance with this map and it seems to be ok. I do have a bit of a hit post shift, which I'll hopefully fix with WGDC.

[vfeng]

great start! looking forward to seeing how this progresses

[Ilma]

I'm surprised you couldn't increase boost in the higher rpms.

Here is a log of my modified OTS stage 1 map (on meth only...no E85 here) and I am holding 17 psi of boost at 5500 rpm whereas your log shows only 14 psi.

I included my modified load values for your info.
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[Johnny Boost]

Good work Wedge. You are easily one of the most valuable members of this community

[Wedge1967]

Originally Posted by Ilma

I'm surprised you couldn't increase boost in the higher rpms.

Here is a log of my modified OTS stage 1 map (on meth only...no E85 here) and I am holding 17 psi of boost at 5500 rpm whereas your log shows only 14 psi.

I included my modified load values for your info.
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So I want to clarify, this is FLASH only that I'm talking about. LOAD is a nice quick easy way to increase the overall values if you can hit your load targets. This was the first step and actually I was a bit more aggressive with regard to my load values.

I see you have Methanol in your log. Are you running a PROcede on top of your OFT? That alone changes everything as the PROcede has it's own WGDC. Also, your boost onset is really slow in comparison to what I've seen with the OFT/BTF. The only thing I question about your log is your consistent drop in timing. Looks like you have DME timing pulls from 3k to 5k and your pull only covers a range of 2500 rpm.

[triggz]

Open source? Where is the source code? Did you mean Open Flash because that is far from being Open source.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by Wedge1967

So I want to clarify, this is FLASH only that I'm talking about. LOAD is a nice quick easy way to increase the overall values if you can hit your load targets. This was the first step and actually I was a bit more aggressive with regard to my load values.

I see you have Methanol in your log. Are you running a PROcede on top of your OFT? That alone changes everything as the PROcede has it's own WGDC. Also, your boost onset is really slow in comparison to what I've seen with the OFT/BTF. The only thing I question about your log is your consistent drop in timing. Looks like you have DME timing pulls from 3k to 5k and your pull only covers a range of 2500 rpm.

Since I logged only DBW throttle and not actual throttle - the boost onset only appears slow because I slowly eased into the throttle.

Boost ramp up is far faster on the OTF maps that regular piggy....no doubt about it.

Yes this is stacked flash and procede for meth control, but the piggy is zeroed out. Boost, AFR, and timing are being managed by the flash. Procede distorts the boost by about 1 psi according to Shiv, but other than that there is no doubt in my mind that the flash is calling the shots.

Timing is hitting the table values I entered into the flash ignition table.....pretty much stock timing values since pump gas and a bit of meth is not going to allow for significantly higher timing without getting some knock. So I adjusted timing to stay below my typical knock threshold.

It's all following the flash tables pretty much.

If your load values didn't do anything for you then you probably went to aggressive and exceeded some protocol in another maximum table.

There are tables for maximum WGDC set to 57 somewhere in the flash that I increased in order to allow for more boost before being capped off by the limiter table.

Anyways, I was just trying to illustrate that I had some success increasing boost via the load tables.

As I went higher than this, I ran into the same brick wall that you did whereby I could no longer increase boost in spite of entering higher load values.

But you seem more interested in pointing out all my flaws (as you see them anyways) rather than taking this as information that it is possible to get more boost out of the flash.

So I'll just stay out of your thread

[Wedge1967]

Originally Posted by triggz

Open source? Where is the source code? Did you mean Open Flash because that is far from being Open source.

You might want to troll another thread as you clearly don't have a clue as to what you're talking about let alone took the time to even read anything other than the header of the thread before posting your comment.

Let me clarify... Open Source is not a reference to OFT or BTF. It clearly is based on the table. How you flash the BIN file back to your car is up to you and has nothing to do with this thread.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

I think what you're trying to do is not currently possible with the TP tuning environment. Cobb had to do several programming changes to allow higher boost values and TP allows only table editing not programming changes. Put the piggyback back on if trying to do any sort of maximum effort setup.

Mike

[Wedge1967]

Originally Posted by Ilma

Since I logged only DBW throttle and not actual throttle - the boost onset only appears slow because I slowly eased into the throttle.

Boost ramp up is far faster on the OTF maps that regular piggy....no doubt about it.

Yes this is stacked flash and procede for meth control, but the piggy is zeroed out. Boost, AFR, and timing are being managed by the flash. Procede distorts the boost by about 1 psi according to Shiv, but other than that there is no doubt in my mind that the flash is calling the shots.

Timing is hitting the table values I entered into the flash ignition table.....pretty much stock timing values since pump gas and a bit of meth is not going to allow for significantly higher timing without getting some knock. So I adjusted timing to stay below my typical knock threshold.

It's all following the flash tables pretty much.

If your load values didn't do anything for you then you probably went to aggressive and exceeded some protocol in another maximum table.

There are tables for maximum WGDC set to 57 somewhere in the flash that I increased in order to allow for more boost before being capped off by the limiter table.

Anyways, I was just trying to illustrate that I had some success increasing boost via the load tables.

As I went higher than this, I ran into the same brick wall that you did whereby I could no longer increase boost in spite of entering higher load values.

But you seem more interested in pointing out all my flaws (as you see them anyways) rather than taking this as information that it is possible to get more boost out of the flash.

So I'll just stay out of your thread

Slow down bro, not at all the case. Just needed clarification as the Meth threw me for a loop and the fact you have no over boost is wonderful... The 1 deg drops looked like DME requests for timing pull.

So you're running stock Stage 1 WGDC (Base), you increased your Load Target, and increased your WGDC % Limit to hold boost?

I have my WGDC% Limit set to 70. What did you change your setting to?

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Wedge1967

Slow down bro, not at all the case. Just needed clarification as the Meth threw me for a loop and the fact you have no over boost is wonderful... The 1 deg drops looked like DME requests for timing pull.

So you're running stock Stage 1 WGDC (Base), you increased your Load Target, and increased your WGDC % Limit to hold boost?

I have my WGDC% Limit set to 70. What did you change your setting to?

70 is more than enough WGDC when flash tuning. I think the Cobb OTS maps are capped at 57.

You need to ramp load higher in the RPM like Ilma said and see where that takes you first.

In regards to correcting those throttle trimming issues in the mid-range, at least on Cobb, we did it by logging boost setpoint factor, and MAF WGDC%. Since the XDF files are defined differently than what Cobb uses, we need to find the equivalent tables and pull from the RPMs where you are experiencing those issues.

Maybe Shiv can help you find the equivalent tables since you're an OFT owner.

[Wedge1967]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

I think what you're trying to do is not currently possible with the TP tuning environment. Cobb had to do several programming changes to allow higher boost values and TP allows only table editing not programming changes. Put the piggyback back on if trying to do any sort of maximum effort setup.

Mike

Thanks Mike. I understand that we have some limitations with regard to boost, but my goal is not to hit 20 psi, my goal is to hit 15 to 16 deg of timing while holding 18 psi as long as possible WGDC permitting of course.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by Wedge1967

Slow down bro, not at all the case. Just needed clarification as the Meth threw me for a loop and the fact you have no over boost is wonderful... The 1 deg drops looked like DME requests for timing pull.

So you're running stock Stage 1 WGDC (Base), you increased your Load Target, and increased your WGDC % Limit to hold boost?

I have my WGDC% Limit set to 70. What did you change your setting to?

I believe I used 70% duty cycle llimit as well (hard to remember now as I don't even recall where that table is anymore).

I did not touch any of the actual WGDC tables at all.

Here is my main timing table and you can clearly see that I set 6.5 to 7.5 degrees of advance in the mid rpms and my datalog is pretty much right on to those values.
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[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Ilma

I believe I used 70% duty cycle llimit as well (hard to remember now as I don't even recall where that table is anymore).

I did not touch any of the actual WGDC tables at all.

Here is my main timing table and you can clearly see that I set 6.5 to 7.5 degrees of advance in the mid rpms and my datalog is pretty much right on to those values.
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If your PROcede is installed all wastegate tuning on the flash side is ignored as far as I know. That is how the JB4 works. Holding any boost[ curve you want is no problem with a piggyback installed. Pull the system completely to experience flash only control.

Mike

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

If your PROcede is installed all wastegate tuning on the flash side is ignored as far as I know. That is how the JB4 works. Holding any boost[ curve you want is no problem with a piggyback installed. Pull the system completely to experience flash only control.

Mike

Oh...that's interesting?

Got me wondering know.

My stacked piggy boost table values were all set for stock (9 psi and less) yet the flash gave me 18 psi.

Does that mean both the flash and piggy can control boost.....but only the piggy controls actual WGDC when stacked?
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[Wedge1967]

Originally Posted by themyst

70 is more than enough WGDC when flash tuning. I think the Cobb OTS maps are capped at 57.

You need to ramp load higher in the RPM like Ilma said and see where that takes you first.

In regards to correcting those throttle trimming issues in the mid-range, at least on Cobb, we did it by logging boost setpoint factor, and MAF WGDC%. Since the XDF files are defined differently than what Cobb uses, we need to find the equivalent tables and pull from the RPMs where you are experiencing those issues.

Maybe Shiv can help you find the equivalent tables since you're an OFT owner.

So like I indicated, I'm a bit more aggressive with my Load Target, so maybe I need to start over with the Stage 1.



@Marv85 and I actually was able to pull some BT logs yesterday. He has a lot more experience with this than I do, so he's reviewing them today so we can fix the WGDC issues.

For those wondering what we logged with the BT cable:

Time - Ambient pressure - Motor speed - Speed 2 -Ignition point cylinder 1 - Intake air temperature - Throttle valve sensor 1 - Pressure in front of throttle valve - Wastegate 1 PWM pulse duration modulation - Target boost pressure - Airmass

If we overlooked anything, please let me know. Thanks

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Ilma

Oh...that's interesting?

Got me wondering know.

My stacked piggy boost table values were all set for stock (9 psi and less) yet the flash gave me 18 psi.

Does that mean both the flash and piggy can control boost.....but only the piggy controls actual WGDC when stacked?
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Either the flash or the piggy can determine your boost target but only the piggy controls boost when installed and enabled. In the JB4 there is a field called "DME Boost Target" which shows the OEM load target. If that matches exactly with your "Target" then the DME is determining the boost target in that case.

Mike

[Wedge1967]

Originally Posted by Ilma

I believe I used 70% duty cycle llimit as well (hard to remember now as I don't even recall where that table is anymore).

I did not touch any of the actual WGDC tables at all.

Here is my main timing table and you can clearly see that I set 6.5 to 7.5 degrees of advance in the mid rpms and my datalog is pretty much right on to those values.
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I'm very surprised at how well flash tuning holds to the target values. Granted this is just my opinion, but I think your timing is a bit conservative. The DME does a really good job of pulling timing as needed.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Either the flash or the piggy can determine your boost target but only the piggy controls boost when installed and enabled. In the JB4 there is a field called "DME Boost Target" which shows the OEM load target. If that matches exactly with your "Target" then the DME is determining the boost target in that case.

Mike

When stacked with Procede, I set my percentage boost target to the minimum of 10%.

I would think that this allows the flash DME boost targets to pass through the Procede with no additional bias by the piggy in terms of boost control.

So in this case, the DME is clearly controlling the boost targets since I am able to hit 18 psi even though the piggy caps at 9 psi.

What I am not too clear on is who is controlling the wgdc's in a stacked scenario? The piggy or the flash?
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Sorry for the thread jack Wedge.

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by Ilma

When stacked with Procede, I set my percentage boost target to the minimum of 10%.

I would think that this allows the flash DME boost targets to pass through the Procede with no additional bias by the piggy in terms of boost control.

So in this case, the DME is clearly controlling the boost targets since I am able to hit 18 psi even though the piggy caps at 9 psi.

What I am not too clear on is who is controlling the wgdc's in a stacked scenario? The piggy or the flash?



Sorry for the thread jack Wedge.

If the DME is controlling load and boost targets, I’d think it/the flash would have control over WGDC….Hmm good question.

[marv85]

@wedge1967 , WGDC ceiling limit is not the issue in your case because you weren;t closet to the limit. We saw 49% up there, so we weren't maxing it from that perspective

[Wedge1967]

Originally Posted by Ilma

When stacked with Procede, I set my percentage boost target to the minimum of 10%.

I would think that this allows the flash DME boost targets to pass through the Procede with no additional bias by the piggy in terms of boost control.

So in this case, the DME is clearly controlling the boost targets since I am able to hit 18 psi even though the piggy caps at 9 psi.

What I am not too clear on is who is controlling the wgdc's in a stacked scenario? The piggy or the flash?
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Sorry for the thread jack Wedge.

haha, No worries man... This is all good information and hopefully Shiv can chime in and clarify this for everyone.