[superjay]

[mob17]

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633713

I've just read the above thread about making a custom corner sub enclosure, and although it doesn't seem easy i think i can give it a go. I dont want to have a sealed or ported box as i think I would get a lot of trunk rattle. The sub i am looking at is a JL 12w7, which my DLS amp should give around 650w rms @ 3 ohm (estimate based on 500w@4ohm, 870w@2ohm & 1200w@1ohm). JL recommend 750w as the optimum power.... I definately want to keep my DLS amp, so should i choose another sub that more closely matches my amps power?

I've got a few more questions:

1) Which side shall i make the enclosure for, the stock amp side or the battery side? My preference is the stock amp side but am just wondering will the xd amp right underneath be ok with all that bass right above?

2) JL recommend an sealed box volume of 1.375cu ft. So does that mean for the corner enclosure i should have the exact same volume? How much volume approx will the corner enclosure have?

[kaigoss69]

If I were you I would get a 12W6 or ID 12 as they are better suited for small sealed enclosures and you will likely not harvest the full potential of the W7 in that enclosure and with "only" 600W. Also, with the W6 you can go 2ohm and get another 200-300W out of the amp. 870W sounds about right power-wise for a W6 in a small enclosure.

As far as which side, I'm not sure but the battery side may have more depth as you can remove the battery tray cover completely and let the whole box sit in its place. VP did this for e92s, but never for e90s. Not sure why. From what I've seen though it seems difficult to get more than 1 cu ft without the box protruding too much into the trunk, to the point of being ugly and impractical..

[superjay]

Originally Posted by kaigoss69

If I were you I would get a 12W6 or ID 12 as they are better suited for small sealed enclosures and you will likely not harvest the full potential of the W7 in that enclosure and with "only" 600W. Also, with the W6 you can go 2ohm and get another 200-300W out of the amp. 870W sounds about right power-wise for a W6 in a small enclosure.

As far as which side, I'm not sure but the battery side may have more depth as you can remove the battery tray cover completely and let the whole box sit in its place. VP did this for e92s, but never for e90s. Not sure why. From what I've seen though it seems difficult to get more than 1 cu ft without the box protruding too much into the trunk, to the point of being ugly and impractical..

I'll agree 100% with the 12W6, but stay away from Image Dynamics. A very close friend of mine runs that company now, and I still can't recommend their product. I used to work for Powerbass, which owns Image Dynamics. ID used to be one of the premium mid-Fi companies around, but since Eric (the former owner) and Matt (the tech) left, everything about the company has changed. It is now rebadged Powerbass stuff. The Q and MAX are still made here in the USA, but the parts are still from China. ID is now a full-fledged chinese company.

[mob17]

Originally Posted by kaigoss69

If I were you I would get a 12W6 or ID 12 as they are better suited for small sealed enclosures and you will likely not harvest the full potential of the W7 in that enclosure and with "only" 600W. Also, with the W6 you can go 2ohm and get another 200-300W out of the amp. 870W sounds about right power-wise for a W6 in a small enclosure.

So is the only way to harness the full potential of the W7 is to use a larger enclosure (non corner)? So im guessing a W7 is not an ideal sub for our cars rattle wise?

I did look at the 12W6, but the reason i threw it out of my options is that JL recommend a maximum of 600w rms. Anything above and the warranty is void, which kind of scares me! So it makes me think that maybe 870w is too much and I may blow it? Im not sure though and i suppose i could just turn the amp gains down. In your experience, how many rms watts is sufficient for loud deep bass? Its just that i want to use my amp to its full potential at 2 ohm.

I also placed Xmax high on my spec wishes, as i listen to a lot of bass heavy music, and the W7 has 29mm compared with the W6's 17mm. Im no expert on subs but i think Xmax is quite important? Having said that it might be a waste of money as, like you say, it is in a small enclosure and getting 650w.

As far as which side, I'm not sure but the battery side may have more depth as you can remove the battery tray cover completely and let the whole box sit in its place. VP did this for e92s, but never for e90s. Not sure why. From what I've seen though it seems difficult to get more than 1 cu ft without the box protruding too much into the trunk, to the point of being ugly and impractical..

Well it would make it more practical for me going to the battery side if i needed to go and change the amp gains. Im just a bit wary of bass being so close to the battery and the fuel cap, which may rattle?

.

[superjay]

You will definitely not be disappointed in the W6. IIRC, the difference in output, with identical power, in JL specified optimal enclosures, was 4dB.

The W6 is rated at 600rms, but will easily handle 800rms. I would not feed it more than that, though.

[mob17]

Originally Posted by superjay

You will definitely not be disappointed in the W6. IIRC, the difference in output, with identical power, in JL specified optimal enclosures, was 4dB.

The W6 is rated at 600rms, but will easily handle 800rms. I would not feed it more than that, though.

that doesnt seem a huge difference then if u take into account that the w7 will get around 650w and will be in a smaller than optimal enclosure.

feel a bit better about the w6 now. i was just quite worried about blowing it with too much power and also it having less xmax. but i think due to my limitations it would be a better choice.

i really dont like looking at one make when buying stuff, i like to compare different products. so taking into account my amp (DLS A6 1200w@1ohm, 870w@2ohm, 500w@4ohm), and the fact that it will be in a smallish corner enclosure, are there any other subs that rival the w6? in terms of achieving loud deep bass but also accurate. I have heard Fi Audio SSD and Sundown SA subs are good but not sure if they will work well in the corner.

[superjay]

you can't take xmax as your only spec. xmax MUST be combined with a lot of other parameters. Granted, a big Xmax means it pushes more air than a small Xmax, this really only matters if all other parameters are the same. If motor force (Bl) is 7 in a sub with an Xmax of 30mm, and Bl is 15 with an Xmax of 20mm, you'll get more air moved from the sub with Xmax of 20mm because of how forcefully the piston can be moved from one extreme of X to the other.

The W7 is a great sub, but I've always preferred the W6...it's more efficient, so requires less power to move the same air, and takes less space, and sounds considerably better. At the extreme the W7 will be louder, but you aren't taking it to the extreme, nor do you have the required airspace to get the most out of it. I think you'll be happier with the W6 (and may get more bass out of it, considering the allotted airspace

[superjay]

If you want to consider other brands take a look at RE Audio (the SXX would be comparable to the W6), MTX (T812), Rockford Fosgate (P3) and Kicker (CVX). There are lots of subwoofer brands out there, but these are what come to mind first.

If I had to make a choice of something other than the W6 I'd start with the RE Audio SXX.

Please, do not take anyone's word for the sound of a subwoofer. Only you can decide what you like. Only you know how things sound to you, and only you know what type of sound you like. I can't tell you what you like. I can tell you what I like, and that's about it. I can, however, tell you about quality, longevity, and performance. I can tell you what brands are closest to spec, but I cannot tell you what you like.

[kaigoss69]

Didn't know that about ID, sucks that they are allowing their products to become "chinatized".

Yeah the xmax is not a valid indicator of the performance of these two subs. I actually had a 12W7 in a JL sealed enclosure, and I HATED that sub. The best way to describe it is "loose" and "soft". The cone was moving like crazy, but there was little impact. I also tried one in a JL vented enclosure (the one that takes up the entire trunk), and I remember hating that one even more, more or less for the same reasons.

I also believe xmax is limited by the sealed enclosure volume, as you can only compress that little amount of air by so much, so you definitely would never get the full benefit of those extra 12 mm of excursion capability in an enclosure this small.

[kaigoss69]

Oh yeah, and I LOVE the way the W6 sounds, most musical sub I have ever heard. I may actually try a Morel SC10 next as that one is supposed to be the the best sounding sub in small sealed enclosures. I'm clearly going for SQ, not SQL or SPL.

[superjay]

if someone wants a W7, I usually try to sell them on the RE Audio XXX. It's FAR more musical, less expensive (by a little), handles CONSIDERABLY more power (2500watts), and is louder by every sense of the word. More SPL, better sound, solid impact, more snap, better range (10Hz-1100Hz, as opposed to 20Hz-400Hz), and hand built here in the USA. I'm not sure if the W7 is still built in the USA, but it used to be. The XXX is built by ONE person. His name is Greg, and he builds each, and every XXX that leaves the factory in City of Industry, CA. If there is need for a custom arrangement (like different spiders, or specific voice coil specifications, or more or less moving mass) it can be done for $50 added cost, and a 2-week lead time.

I'm a huge fan of RE Audio because they are a small company, and they care about car audio. JL is built on the same principal, but they've become a large company, and have lost their personal relationship with the end user. I love JL Audio, don't get me wrong. I have friends there, and don't have a single bad thing to say about them, but when it comes to a personal relationship it goes a long way.

[taibanl]

Originally Posted by kaigoss69

Oh yeah, and I LOVE the way the W6 sounds, most musical sub I have ever heard. I may actually try a Morel SC10 next as that one is supposed to be the the best sounding sub in small sealed enclosures. I'm clearly going for SQ, not SQL or SPL.

Have you listened to ID10...VP swears its more musical than the W6...i am skeptical (plus I am a JL fan and I like having all the same stuff...Im also an ID fan though).

[kaigoss69]

No, but I hear nothing but good things about them, except what Jay said.

[808MGuy]

Originally Posted by superjay

you can't take xmax as your only spec. xmax MUST be combined with a lot of other parameters. Granted, a big Xmax means it pushes more air than a small Xmax, this really only matters if all other parameters are the same. If motor force (Bl) is 7 in a sub with an Xmax of 30mm, and Bl is 15 with an Xmax of 20mm, you'll get more air moved from the sub with Xmax of 20mm because of how forcefully the piston can be moved from one extreme of X to the other.

The W7 is a great sub, but I've always preferred the W6...it's more efficient, so requires less power to move the same air, and takes less space, and sounds considerably better. At the extreme the W7 will be louder, but you aren't taking it to the extreme, nor do you have the required airspace to get the most out of it. I think you'll be happier with the W6 (and may get more bass out of it, considering the allotted airspace

Very true about not being able to take the xmax spec at face value. One of the best subs I ever owned had a relatively small xmax. Digital Designs 9510f. In the right enclosure, it sounded damn good and got louder than you could imagine off 1500W. I wish I could go back to one but the requirement for a ported enclosure makes it difficult in this car without taking up a whole lot of space.

[mob17]

I guess its not as simple as Xmax then...

I still haven't decided what sub to buy, im going to try and hear some first if i get the chance. I know you cant tell me what i'd like, but i will definately take your comments in to consideration.

The recommended sealed enclosure for the 10w6 is 0.693cu ft (added sub displacement volume) and the 12w6 is 1.34cu ft. Because im planning to make a corner enclosure, which i think can be a maximum of 1cu ft, will the 12w6 be ok in an enclosure smaller than recommended? Or will it be better to make a smaller corner enclosure to the exact measurements for the 10w6?

I want to get a 12" because I have always thought that it would give me the low deep bass that i want.

[mob17]

[superjay]

subs always perform better in their optimal enclosure. the 10, in the right enclosure, will perform better than a 12 in a small enclosure. Bigger enclosures mean deeper bass. You'll probably be happier with the 10 in the optimal box.

[mob17]

Originally Posted by superjay

subs always perform better in their optimal enclosure. the 10, in the right enclosure, will perform better than a 12 in a small enclosure. Bigger enclosures mean deeper bass. You'll probably be happier with the 10 in the optimal box.

I agree with you that a sub in the optimal enclosure will perfom better than one thats not. But the reason why I really want a 12" is that most of my music is bass heavy and i think a 12 can play lower than a 10, whilst also being more responsive than a 15. I think its a good balance.

Is 1.34 cu ft really that hard to get in the battery corner? I dont mind it sticking out a bit. How would i go about measuring the volume, with all the different contours etc.

[superjay]

I don't think you'll have an issue getting 1.34 into the corner. That's about 1.5 before speaker displacement. There is plenty of room in the corner.

The difference between the 10 and 12, as far as deep bass response, is not really too far off. In a sealed enclosure you may notice 3-4Hz difference. Resonant frequency of each is pretty close, as they are designed that way. You will, however, notice that the 12 is going to be louder, since it has about 80% more surface area, even with the same power.

[kaigoss69]

Well like I said before, I think you will be limited with the enclosure size by the physical space available in the corner of the trunk. If you try to squeeze a 12W6 into a smaller size enclosure than it was designed for, it'll have a very peaky response and not much authority on the low end, but a 10W6 in the right enclosure will dig pretty deep and have a much smoother response. My gut would tell me to use a 12W6 if you can get 1 cu ft or more, and use the 10W6 if it is less than 1 cu ft.

[superjay]

Originally Posted by kaigoss69

Well like I said before, I think you will be limited with the enclosure size by the physical space available in the corner of the trunk. If you try to squeeze a 12W6 into a smaller size enclosure than it was designed for, it'll have a very peaky response and not much authority on the low end, but a 10W6 in the right enclosure will dig pretty deep and have a much smoother response. My gut would tell me to use a 12W6 if you can get 1 cu ft or more, and use the 10W6 if it is less than 1 cu ft.

I will agree with this post. I do, however, think there shouldn't be an issue getting 1.5 ft^3 in that corner