E90Post
 


The Tire Rack
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > Regional Forums > Australia > United 100 and E85



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-15-2014, 02:06 AM   #1
lemonpark
Captain
lemonpark's Avatar
Australia
58
Rep
610
Posts

Drives: '08 335i E92
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Melbourne

iTrader: (0)

United 100 and E85

never knew United had 100 fuel (98ron + 10% enthanol) or even E85 as there's not that many United servos in Sydney.

I've been using only BP Ultimate for my car and thought I'd try United's 100 just to see if there's and difference.
When I was filling up I didn't think it would make a difference and that it could actually be bad for the car, but as soon as I pulled out I thought that the car pulled harder and the throttle was more sensitive, but probably placebo.

What do you guys think? Should I just stick with BP again after this tank? And also, is it safe to run E85 on my car?(DP, DCI, JB4) and if so, how much of it? I'm a noob to all this. thanks!!
__________________
JB4 G5 ISO | BMS Backend Flash | Alpina B3 TCU Flash | AR Design Catless DP | BMS DCI | ER CP | Turbosmart Race Port BOV | Muffler Delete | H&R Sport Springs | BMS Cowl | BMW Performance Alcantara Wheel | M3 DCT Paddles | Muse Concept and Design Interior | 19" GTC-CX | M3 Lip Spoiler | Zieg CF Rear Diffuser | Flow Designs Front Lip | Black Grill | RGB LED Angel Eyes | 8000K HID |
Appreciate 0
      08-15-2014, 02:52 AM   #2
Zen
Captain
Australia
11
Rep
640
Posts

Drives: E92 335i
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Sydney Aus

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonpark View Post
never knew United had 100 fuel (98ron + 10% enthanol) or even E85 as there's not that many United servos in Sydney.

I've been using only BP Ultimate for my car and thought I'd try United's 100 just to see if there's and difference.
When I was filling up I didn't think it would make a difference and that it could actually be bad for the car, but as soon as I pulled out I thought that the car pulled harder and the throttle was more sensitive, but probably placebo.

What do you guys think? Should I just stick with BP again after this tank? And also, is it safe to run E85 on my car?(DP, DCI, JB4) and if so, how much of it? I'm a noob to all this. thanks!!
IIRC it was 30% of E85 and the rest of the tank is RON98. I think @froop or JB4-335 could chime in on the finer details.
__________________
08' E92 335I
Black Sapphire Metallic | M-Sport | GT-CS 19" Matte Anthracite | BMW Perf. Exhaust | JB4 | AR Design Catless DP | R1 Concepts Cross-drilled & Slotted Rotors | aFe DCI | ER Chargepipe with Forge DV | ER FMIC
Appreciate 0
      08-15-2014, 03:03 AM   #3
_ink
Jedi samurai ninja turtle
_ink's Avatar
Australia
618
Rep
3,021
Posts

Drives: X3 M40i 2018
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sydney, Australia

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2018 X3 M40i  [0.00]
United is the only 'mainstream' servo that you can get e85 from, that's where I get mine from.

What map are you using when running 100? For maximum benefit, you'd want to tune for it which will mean a back end flash to maximise gains and not controllable from just the jb4.
Appreciate 0
      08-15-2014, 03:44 AM   #4
froop
Colonel
froop's Avatar
Australia
171
Rep
2,682
Posts

Drives: 08 AW 6MT E82
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Sydney, Australia

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonpark
never knew United had 100 fuel (98ron + 10% enthanol) or even E85 as there's not that many United servos in Sydney.

I've been using only BP Ultimate for my car and thought I'd try United's 100 just to see if there's and difference.
When I was filling up I didn't think it would make a difference and that it could actually be bad for the car, but as soon as I pulled out I thought that the car pulled harder and the throttle was more sensitive, but probably placebo.

What do you guys think? Should I just stick with BP again after this tank? And also, is it safe to run E85 on my car?(DP, DCI, JB4) and if so, how much of it? I'm a noob to all this. thanks!!
If you're running map 5 on the JB4 it should self tune for the small ethanol percentage and extra octane in the fuel.

You are probably safe trying an E30-40 mix with a stock fuel system on map 5. Just remember that this does not mean 30-40% E85 and the rest pump fuel and especially doesn't mean the rest United 100. You need to get a calculator so you can correctly mix the right amount of E85 and other fuel to get 30-40% of ethanol.

Also make sure you datalog so you know your fuel system is handling it.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-15-2014, 04:07 AM   #5
lemonpark
Captain
lemonpark's Avatar
Australia
58
Rep
610
Posts

Drives: '08 335i E92
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Melbourne

iTrader: (0)

thanks for the replies guys, I have a backend flash for pump fuel already and running map5. I need a separate backend flash to run E85 right? probably gonna hold out till I'm FBO. I seem to be getting more boost with the 100ron but I don't really pay attention to my boost gauge that much and can't tell you exactly how much it was before, around 14-15 I think
__________________
JB4 G5 ISO | BMS Backend Flash | Alpina B3 TCU Flash | AR Design Catless DP | BMS DCI | ER CP | Turbosmart Race Port BOV | Muffler Delete | H&R Sport Springs | BMS Cowl | BMW Performance Alcantara Wheel | M3 DCT Paddles | Muse Concept and Design Interior | 19" GTC-CX | M3 Lip Spoiler | Zieg CF Rear Diffuser | Flow Designs Front Lip | Black Grill | RGB LED Angel Eyes | 8000K HID |
Appreciate 0
      08-15-2014, 06:13 AM   #6
JB4-335
Brigadier General
Australia
167
Rep
3,093
Posts

Drives: E92 BSM & E70 AW
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Australia

iTrader: (1)

Don't use the United 100. It's cheap unleaded mixed with E85. Just go to BP for your 98 and mix in 20-30% E85 as a start.
Appreciate 0
      08-15-2014, 05:26 PM   #7
Brule
Brigadier General
Australia
827
Rep
3,189
Posts

Drives: 2007 335i e92 6spd man
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Darwin

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonpark View Post
thanks for the replies guys, I have a backend flash for pump fuel already and running map5. I need a separate backend flash to run E85 right? probably gonna hold out till I'm FBO. I seem to be getting more boost with the 100ron but I don't really pay attention to my boost gauge that much and can't tell you exactly how much it was before, around 14-15 I think
Have you got any emissions error with your back end flash?
Appreciate 0
      08-16-2014, 02:44 AM   #8
lemonpark
Captain
lemonpark's Avatar
Australia
58
Rep
610
Posts

Drives: '08 335i E92
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Melbourne

iTrader: (0)

oh ok, just trying the 100 with this tank, fuel consumption is up tho, 14l/100km ://

and the only errors I've got is a left brake light error but I checked and none of the bulbs are out :/
happens randomly and sometimes when I got WOT
__________________
JB4 G5 ISO | BMS Backend Flash | Alpina B3 TCU Flash | AR Design Catless DP | BMS DCI | ER CP | Turbosmart Race Port BOV | Muffler Delete | H&R Sport Springs | BMS Cowl | BMW Performance Alcantara Wheel | M3 DCT Paddles | Muse Concept and Design Interior | 19" GTC-CX | M3 Lip Spoiler | Zieg CF Rear Diffuser | Flow Designs Front Lip | Black Grill | RGB LED Angel Eyes | 8000K HID |
Appreciate 0
      08-16-2014, 04:50 AM   #9
DR-JEKL
Major General
Australia
898
Rep
6,285
Posts

Drives: Space Grey E92 335i 6MT
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Newcastle Ozstraylia

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonpark View Post
oh ok, just trying the 100 with this tank, fuel consumption is up tho, 14l/100km ://
Ethanol is consumed at a much higher rate due to its density much like LPG. This is one of it's major drawbacks, but no-one uses E85 blends etc for it's economy but for increase of power!
Appreciate 0
      08-16-2014, 05:21 AM   #10
froop
Colonel
froop's Avatar
Australia
171
Rep
2,682
Posts

Drives: 08 AW 6MT E82
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Sydney, Australia

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DR-JEKL
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonpark View Post
oh ok, just trying the 100 with this tank, fuel consumption is up tho, 14l/100km ://
Ethanol is consumed at a much higher rate due to its density much like LPG. This is one of it's major drawbacks, but no-one uses E85 blends etc for it's economy but for increase of power!
With only 10% I don't think fuel consumption will go up that much. Most likely it's cos his right foot is too heavy from the extra power.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-20-2014, 05:07 PM   #11
LotusBMW
Fast Wagoner
LotusBMW's Avatar
Australia
23
Rep
219
Posts

Drives: E91 335i | E36 M3 and more...
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Melbourne Australia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by froop View Post
If you're running map 5 on the JB4 it should self tune for the small ethanol percentage and extra octane in the fuel.

You are probably safe trying an E30-40 mix with a stock fuel system on map 5. Just remember that this does not mean 30-40% E85 and the rest pump fuel and especially doesn't mean the rest United 100. You need to get a calculator so you can correctly mix the right amount of E85 and other fuel to get 30-40% of ethanol.

Also make sure you datalog so you know your fuel system is handling it.
Been considering all of this over brekkie this morning. Do I take it from the above it's not a matter of mixing XX% by volume of E85 versus 98? You're aiming for (say) 30% ethanol, not 30% E85?

Owner's manual says it's a 63 litre tank with 8 in reserve (presume this means you actually have 8 litres left when trip computer says empty). So let's say you fill up with 60 litres of fuel as an example. If you're aiming for 30% ethanol, that's 18 litres out of 60. Given that E85 is (fairly obviously) 85% ethanol, you need to add 21 litres to get the 18 litres of ethanol (that's 18 / 0.85). That how it should be approached?

Is 30% conservative enough due to the different calorific and therefore flow rates? Stock fuel system but running JB4 map5, CLDPs.

Thanks.
__________________
E36 M3 | E91 335i | Nissan Skyline R32 GTR | Porsche 996 GT3
Appreciate 0
      09-20-2014, 06:03 PM   #12
LotusBMW
Fast Wagoner
LotusBMW's Avatar
Australia
23
Rep
219
Posts

Drives: E91 335i | E36 M3 and more...
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Melbourne Australia

iTrader: (0)

from here http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10605

Not sure how well this translates across the pond given our different fuel qualities. Probably makes the below conservative

Can I use E85 ethanol fuel with the JB4? If so what mixture should I use?

1) Generally speaking you can run 30-40% E85 without the need for logging or worrying about fuel trims, fuel pressure, etc. Just mix E85 in and select map 5. Done.
2) For those wanting to run higher mixtures (and more power) then you need to datalog. You'll want to first look at your low fuel pressure in the JB4 logs. If that is dropping below 50 then you're maxing out the low fuel pressure and should either reduce the E85 mixture or add fuel pump upgrade.
3) Next up look at fuel trims. If they are exceeding 50 in the JB4 logs & open loop is already at 90-100, or if you get 29F2 codes from having too high of an open loop, then you need to add the BMS back end flash for E85 fuels to extend the fueling range. The E85 flash also features VANOS changes, higher than factory timing advance, and some other stuff designed to help make more power on E85.
4) Finally after the flash and low pressure pump, you need to keep an eye on the high pressure pump. If it drops below 9 @ wide open throttle then you're maxing out the high pressure pump and need to lower the E85 mixture or lower the boost in the areas where it's dropping below 10. Right now there is no viable high pressure pump update. The only known solution that works is to add meth at this point. This is why BMS suggests 60-70% E85 and not 100% E85. The 100% E85 works the fuel system harder with no power benefit over say 70%.
5) Most cars will need an inline fuel pump upgrade OR meth to run more than 50% E85. We suggest this inexpensive inline option.
6) Using map 7 requires 50-60% E85, the back end flash, AND the fuel pump upgrade.
__________________
E36 M3 | E91 335i | Nissan Skyline R32 GTR | Porsche 996 GT3
Appreciate 0
      09-22-2014, 05:31 AM   #13
sublian
Private
sublian's Avatar
Australia
9
Rep
61
Posts

Drives: 335i E92 2009
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Melbourne

iTrader: (0)

I have been using 30% E85 and the rest P100 at United for 8 months before I went RBs (1month ago) and now I use 60% E85 107 Race Blend with the E85 BB Flash. In my opinion, they are the best fuels certainly best E85. In fact I did a test to see whether I was getting E85 or less in winter and guess what? It was showing E90 plus!!

When I was running 30% E85 pre RB Turbo, I was Map 5 JB4 G5 ISO no flash. It gave me an extra 30rwkw (255rwkw increased to 285rwkw boosting 17.5psi) and better idle felt smooth strong and fast. Did not even activate my meth after this. And this was on a DD Dyno which reads 3% lower than a Mainline Dyno like the one at Melbourne Performance Centre.

To work out the dosages of each fuel type, use the web address below as a calculator:

intercepteft.com

Yes, always do a log to see if your fuel trims, lpfp and hpfp are at appropriate levels especially once you use more than 30% E85.
Appreciate 0
      09-22-2014, 10:39 AM   #14
froop
Colonel
froop's Avatar
Australia
171
Rep
2,682
Posts

Drives: 08 AW 6MT E82
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Sydney, Australia

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LotusBMW
Quote:
Originally Posted by froop View Post
If you're running map 5 on the JB4 it should self tune for the small ethanol percentage and extra octane in the fuel.

You are probably safe trying an E30-40 mix with a stock fuel system on map 5. Just remember that this does not mean 30-40% E85 and the rest pump fuel and especially doesn't mean the rest United 100. You need to get a calculator so you can correctly mix the right amount of E85 and other fuel to get 30-40% of ethanol.

Also make sure you datalog so you know your fuel system is handling it.
Been considering all of this over brekkie this morning. Do I take it from the above it's not a matter of mixing XX% by volume of E85 versus 98? You're aiming for (say) 30% ethanol, not 30% E85?

Owner's manual says it's a 63 litre tank with 8 in reserve (presume this means you actually have 8 litres left when trip computer says empty). So let's say you fill up with 60 litres of fuel as an example. If you're aiming for 30% ethanol, that's 18 litres out of 60. Given that E85 is (fairly obviously) 85% ethanol, you need to add 21 litres to get the 18 litres of ethanol (that's 18 / 0.85). That how it should be approached?

Is 30% conservative enough due to the different calorific and therefore flow rates? Stock fuel system but running JB4 map5, CLDPs.

Thanks.
Correct. E30 means 30% ethanol and not 30% E85. Though, if you're using map 5 on the JB4 it won't make a huge difference what percentage you have since it self tunes. Provided your fuel system is handling it ok.

Generally E30 should be fine on a stock fuel system without any backend flash. Any higher and you'll want to datalog to make sure your fuel trims are in check. It's possible to go up to maybe E60-E70 on a stock fuel system provided you have a backend flash to adjust the fuel scalars. With the right fuel scalar and an upgraded LPFP, people have been knows to run straight E85 on stock turbos.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-22-2014, 05:51 PM   #15
LotusBMW
Fast Wagoner
LotusBMW's Avatar
Australia
23
Rep
219
Posts

Drives: E91 335i | E36 M3 and more...
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Melbourne Australia

iTrader: (0)

Good info guys. I did a tank of 30% ethanol 70% 98 Ron fuel. Left it on map 5 and drove for 40klms. No change or improvement in performance at all. Boost limited to roughly 10psi (so even lower than previous highs of 12) and tapering with higher rpms and gears. Disappoint.

So I swapped to map 2 and wow that's a lot better. Very strong performance. I then spoke to Active (where my JB4 was installed) who suggested map 2 was suitable (in any case) and recommended not using any ethanol. I'm not sure if they were suggesting it didn't add anything or that it actually wasn't recommended without some sort of back end flash (I suspect the latter).

So, I'll try and tank of 98 next time as as long as there are no issues (i.e. swapping back into safer maps) I'll assume that's the way I'll continue...I guess as the weather gets hotter and intake temps and oil temps run higher I should watch out for detonation and perhaps this is where the ethanol will assist...Be interesting to see what you guys think of all of this.

I wonder if I should be considering an intercooler upgrade in support of all of this. I know it's fairly high up the 'bolt on' list, but I also suspect having got the JB4 and the CLDPs I'm on the 'diminishing returns' side of the mod list. I'd also like to start exploring a back end flash so I'll have to research this a little more in terms of how it's done and what it actually achieves.
__________________
E36 M3 | E91 335i | Nissan Skyline R32 GTR | Porsche 996 GT3
Appreciate 0
      09-22-2014, 10:29 PM   #16
lemonpark
Captain
lemonpark's Avatar
Australia
58
Rep
610
Posts

Drives: '08 335i E92
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Melbourne

iTrader: (0)

I have a PUMP backend flash on mine done at Active. It basically controls everything like fuel timing and all that stuff and leaves the JB4 to control just the boost pressure and it's extra features like shift light and all that (from what Steven explained to me)
Appreciate 0
      10-02-2014, 11:30 AM   #17
sublian
Private
sublian's Avatar
Australia
9
Rep
61
Posts

Drives: 335i E92 2009
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Melbourne

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LotusBMW View Post
Good info guys. I did a tank of 30% ethanol 70% 98 Ron fuel. Left it on map 5 and drove for 40klms. No change or improvement in performance at all. Boost limited to roughly 10psi (so even lower than previous highs of 12) and tapering with higher rpms and gears. Disappoint.

So I swapped to map 2 and wow that's a lot better. Very strong performance. I then spoke to Active (where my JB4 was installed) who suggested map 2 was suitable (in any case) and recommended not using any ethanol. I'm not sure if they were suggesting it didn't add anything or that it actually wasn't recommended without some sort of back end flash (I suspect the latter).

So, I'll try and tank of 98 next time as as long as there are no issues (i.e. swapping back into safer maps) I'll assume that's the way I'll continue...I guess as the weather gets hotter and intake temps and oil temps run higher I should watch out for detonation and perhaps this is where the ethanol will assist...Be interesting to see what you guys think of all of this.

I wonder if I should be considering an intercooler upgrade in support of all of this. I know it's fairly high up the 'bolt on' list, but I also suspect having got the JB4 and the CLDPs I'm on the 'diminishing returns' side of the mod list. I'd also like to start exploring a back end flash so I'll have to research this a little more in terms of how it's done and what it actually achieves.
Map 5 is the safest as it autotunes depending on the conditions and variables. There could be some situations where even Map 2(14.5psi) may be deemed unsafe. eg. u cannot get 98Pulp or bad batch of fuel etc. Do a reset adaptation 1/7 (steering wheel controls) for jb4 after you blend a mix of Pulp and E85 to get E30. Make sure you don't go over E30. I found if you overdo it there seems to be a lower threshold (if no flash) boost will drop like what you have experienced. Map 5 is doing its job. Boost should go to 17.5psi on E30

Fmic is only a must if you do runs after runs like maybe circuit racing. I would install first a water/meth injection kit before an intercooler

Also, best to do a log when you only get 10psi

Last edited by sublian; 10-02-2014 at 11:54 AM..
Appreciate 0
      10-02-2014, 11:56 AM   #18
sublian
Private
sublian's Avatar
Australia
9
Rep
61
Posts

Drives: 335i E92 2009
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Melbourne

iTrader: (0)

Love the lollies at Active Motorwerke!
__________________
N54 2009 335i coupe, Built Motor, Ported Head, 6AT Propulsive Dynamics built trans, 100% E85 Trebilia Custom Flash, JB4, MHD Stage 2 Pure Turbos and FBO 700whp

M4 Competition Pack Custom Trebilia Bef 100% E85 Map 6 Jb4. Stock everything else.
Appreciate 0
      10-03-2014, 04:13 AM   #19
Drill
Banned
Australia
71
Rep
272
Posts

Drives: e92
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Melbourne

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LotusBMW View Post
from here http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10605

Not sure how well this translates across the pond given our different fuel qualities. Probably makes the below conservative

Can I use E85 ethanol fuel with the JB4? If so what mixture should I use?

1) Generally speaking you can run 30-40% E85 without the need for logging or worrying about fuel trims, fuel pressure, etc. Just mix E85 in and select map 5. Done.
2) For those wanting to run higher mixtures (and more power) then you need to datalog. You'll want to first look at your low fuel pressure in the JB4 logs. If that is dropping below 50 then you're maxing out the low fuel pressure and should either reduce the E85 mixture or add fuel pump upgrade.
3) Next up look at fuel trims. If they are exceeding 50 in the JB4 logs & open loop is already at 90-100, or if you get 29F2 codes from having too high of an open loop, then you need to add the BMS back end flash for E85 fuels to extend the fueling range. The E85 flash also features VANOS changes, higher than factory timing advance, and some other stuff designed to help make more power on E85.
4) Finally after the flash and low pressure pump, you need to keep an eye on the high pressure pump. If it drops below 9 @ wide open throttle then you're maxing out the high pressure pump and need to lower the E85 mixture or lower the boost in the areas where it's dropping below 10. Right now there is no viable high pressure pump update. The only known solution that works is to add meth at this point. This is why BMS suggests 60-70% E85 and not 100% E85. The 100% E85 works the fuel system harder with no power benefit over say 70%.
5) Most cars will need an inline fuel pump upgrade OR meth to run more than 50% E85. We suggest this inexpensive inline option.
6) Using map 7 requires 50-60% E85, the back end flash, AND the fuel pump upgrade.
OMG how do you know all this stuff
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:13 PM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST