[kaigoss69]

This question goes out to the more experienced users:

OK, I am at a point now where I can't stand listening to the L7 any longer. It lacks in so many areas, but my main gripes are the tonality and the imaging.

I have some Focal 100 mm K2 mids lying around as well as Dynaudio MD100 tweeters. I want to use these. I don't have a passive crossover.

Under the seats I have the SWS-8 driven by a BP 300 watt mono amp.

Questions:

1. Would I be better off going active due to the fact that the mids and tweeters are different "animals"?

2. What processor(s) do I need in order to achieve the following:
a) remove L7 processing from OEM post-amp signal
b) capability for "auto-tuning", like Alpine imprint for example, or
c) capability to do fine tuning myself (although I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to fine tuning)
d) retain full functionality of OEM HU volume control

What I want to duplicate/imitate is my last setup in my Jetta which was Alpine imprint with a full active 3-way setup including the above speakers. The sound was like heaven on earth to me after I finally got the auto set-up to work properly (many hours in the garage and many dead batteries!). Problem is, I tried to fine tune the system before the auto-tuning and it sounded like doodoo... I have no clue what I'm doing.

What I want is simple....perfect tonality and imaging (not too much to ask, right .

[VP Electricity]

Originally Posted by kaigoss69

1. Would I be better off going active due to the fact that the mids and tweeters are different "animals"?

Ultimately, yes. You would have to run a second set of speaker leads into the door, and you might have to get a bit of custom work to put the Dyne tweeter in the OEM location.

You will actually be improving the sound of the Focal mids, since IMO the breakup modes at the top end - where they try to have rising response to counter the high crossover handoff to the Focal tweeter - can be lowered since you are using a robust Dyne tweeter which can play far lower. Use a steeper LP slope than you otherwise might for this reason.

Originally Posted by kaigoss69

2. What processor(s) do I need in order to achieve the following:
a) remove L7 processing from OEM post-amp signal
b) capability for "auto-tuning", like Alpine imprint for example, or
c) capability to do fine tuning myself (although I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to fine tuning)
d) retain full functionality of OEM HU volume control

Below are my answers. OEinterface.com is now "live", although I have a lot of data to upload. The BMW info is partially up. Feel free to check it out at OEinterface.com... mainly for the explanation of the 3x3 Matrix questions.

Given the subwoofer low-pass frequency of the Logic 7 system, I do not think that you need to "knit" the signal back together necessarily into a full-range signal.

a) All that any processors can remove at present is amplitude variation. CleanSweep, 360, DQXS, Alpine H650, Zapco DSP-6, and bitONEcan do that.

b) auto-tuning thru microphone - ONLY Imprint. Auto tuning to the electrical signal (which I think is fine to start) - CleanSweep, 360, I believe bitONE.

c) 360.2, bitONE also offer manual tuning. CleanSweep does not. I believe Alpine 650 does.

d) Since the Logic 7 processing - other than the auto-loudness component - is not variable with volume, you can retain the OE volume control with ANY OE interface processor - regardless of what the manual says.

I am doing a comparison bench test with a bitONE, a CleanSweep, and a 360, and hopefully a ReQ and a DQXS. Will take a couple of weeks. Now that I tore a calf muscle and am in a cast, it will probably take longer.

If you are happy with how the bass sounds, you could use a Zapco DC360 4-channel amplifier and a BTL speaker-to-Symbilink adapter. The DC amps have a DSP section that allow great tuning - the only kink is they don't auto-adjust.

That would allow you to reverse the Logic 7 tuning, add your own, and you would not need to touch your sub channels. Alternately, you could get a DC650 6-channel amp, replace the BP, run everything off the Zapco, tune every channel, use two BTL adapters, and tune your sub channel as well.

The reversing the Logic 7 tuning isn't that hard. I don't think I have the file on hand, but for some of the BMWs, I saved the DC DSP settings file and car re-load it into amps for customers without ever seeing their car. I don't have that file for an E90 with L7 though : (

I do have a handheld RTA and test-cable set that I loan customers who want to install themselves and tune the system to electrically flat (that is, reverse the Logic 7 equalization). If you decide to go a route where you would like to take some measurements, let me know. Love to have some measurements on OEinterface.com from others : )

[kaigoss69]

Thanks for the quick and detailed answer VP Electricity. My preference would be the Alpine unit, but according to Technic in this thread http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...light=pxe-h650 I supposedly cannot use it with the HU volume control. Any suggestions on how i can make this unit work?

Thanks.

[Technic]

I think that you will have much better options if you wait some time for the MOST preamp device to be available. This way you just can use any processor regardless if it has de-EQ or not. Actually, if you do not want to get a processor at all it should be ok too as according to mObridge this device will continue to apply the OEM 7-band equalizer adjustments -not the actual processing of course- of the Logic7 feature to the MOST preamp outputs.

So at least you could have a wider range of tuning than just treble/bass adjustments.

[norcal330]

No thoughts about replacing the head unit? I know most are hesitant to do so, but if you're looking for "perfect tonality and imaging", I would say that the head unit will always be the main drawback with the system. I know there has been much argument around the value of things like the CleanSweep or Imprint. Some people swear by them, and claim to get "dramatic" improvements in sound, but I am one of the believers in getting a clean SOURCE to begin with. In my long-departed E36, nothing ever made a bigger impact on SQ than the quality of the head unit. Clean signal=clean sound.

[kaigoss69]

Originally Posted by Technic

I think that you will have much better options if you wait some time for the MOST preamp device to be available. This way you just can use any processor regardless if it has de-EQ or not. Actually, if you do not want to get a processor at all it should be ok too as according to mObridge this device will continue to apply the OEM 7-band equalizer adjustments -not the actual processing of course- of the Logic7 feature to the MOST preamp outputs.

So at least you could have a wider range of tuning than just treble/bass adjustments.

If that unit will be available soon, I will wait for it. But I would still want the Alpine processor, for the imprint technology, and the capability to go active with my speakers.

[kaigoss69]

Originally Posted by norcal330

No thoughts about replacing the head unit? I know most are hesitant to do so, but if you're looking for "perfect tonality and imaging", I would say that the head unit will always be the main drawback with the system. I know there has been much argument around the value of things like the CleanSweep or Imprint. Some people swear by them, and claim to get "dramatic" improvements in sound, but I am one of the believers in getting a clean SOURCE to begin with. In my long-departed E36, nothing ever made a bigger impact on SQ than the quality of the head unit. Clean signal=clean sound.

From what I've heard the HU is actually of very high quality. Someone correct me if I am wrong. Being able to use the optical output and adding an aftermarket processor should actually yield a better source signal with more flexibility and adjustability than an aftermarket HU alone. I also cannot imaging putting an aftermarket unit in this car because it would look so out of place and it is such a pain to install. Not to mention the loss of BT and the door chimes, etc. Any other car, I would do it, but not this one.

[kaigoss69]

Originally Posted by norcal330

Clean signal=clean sound.

I used to be somewhat of a purist myself. Then my installer recommended adding the Alpine imprint processor and I simply could not believe my ears. The difference between what I thought until that point in time of what sounded "great" and what I actually heard after adding the processor was NIGHT and DAY. I heard things I never heard before in music tracks that I had listened to hundreds, perhaps thousands of times. Also, the music was a lot more "focused". It is hard to describe until you have experienced it yourself I guess. Thing is, the car is such a challenging sonic environment that you need the processor to make up for the acoustical pitfalls of the car environment. These adjustments go FAR beyond what you can do with a simple EQ. I am now a firm believer that the ear CANNOT tune a car environment nearly as well as a processor.

[Technic]

Originally Posted by kaigoss69

If that unit will be available soon, I will wait for it. But I would still want the Alpine processor, for the imprint technology, and the capability to go active with my speakers.

The MOST preamp will be able to add the H650 easier, and with perhaps better results as it will not have to do any de-EQ just straight Imprint.

[kaigoss69]

Originally Posted by Technic

The MOST preamp will be able to add the H650 easier, and with perhaps better results as it will not have to do any de-EQ just straight Imprint.

Yes, I love the idea of inputting a clean digital signal into the H650! And the volume control will translate through the optical signal, right?

[Technic]

Originally Posted by kaigoss69

Yes, I love the idea of inputting a clean digital signal into the H650! And the volume control will translate through the optical signal, right?

Yes, and bass, treble, balance and the 7-Band EQ as well. The only adjustment that is not available is fader, as the digital output of the OEM HU is pure stereo 2-channel. Which in your case it will not matter as the H650 only accepts only a low level 2-channel stereo thru their AUX input.

There are no digital inputs in the H650.

The bad news is that apparently this device will be available for BMW MOST by fall/the end of the year.

[norcal330]

Originally Posted by kaigoss69

From what I've heard the HU is actually of very high quality. Someone correct me if I am wrong. Being able to use the optical output and adding an aftermarket processor should actually yield a better source signal with more flexibility and adjustability than an aftermarket HU alone. I also cannot imaging putting an aftermarket unit in this car because it would look so out of place and it is such a pain to install. Not to mention the loss of BT and the door chimes, etc. Any other car, I would do it, but not this one.

I'm not sure I would be in agreement that an OEM head unit + aftermarket processor would yield a higher quality signal than a quality aftermarket head unit sending a clean low-level signal directly to your amps. I think this would be particularly true if you listen to a lot of CD's, which I do. There's simply no way an OEM head unit can compete with aftermarket on CD sound quality.

As far as everything I've read, these processors work by trying to clean-up and/or correct the OEM head unit's signal with some post-processing. How could a "cleaned-up", post-processed signal possibly be cleaner than the signal from a quality aftermarket head unit. Sorry, I'm not buying it. It's basically a work-around to the ultimate solution, which would be to replace the source.

As far as flexibility goes, any high-end head unit will give you more than enough flexibility to "tune" your system to your car.

What I do agree with is that it would ruin the looks of the interior. That is the ONLY reason I would have for not changing the head unit out.

[Technic]

Originally Posted by norcal330

There's simply no way an OEM head unit can compete with aftermarket on CD sound quality.

Yes, they can compete and they can sound even better than aftermarket, especially if the OEM HU outputs in digital like in this case.

[VP Electricity]

Originally Posted by norcal330

I'm not sure I would be in agreement that an OEM head unit + aftermarket processor would yield a higher quality signal than a quality aftermarket head unit sending a clean low-level signal directly to your amps.

Two things:

1) Your comments can be applied to the OP - since he is talking about Logic 7. they are NOT relevant to non-Logic 7 cars with flat, full-range, balanced preamp outputs - which require no processing other than possible a balanced to single-ended conversion.

2) If the OP - or anyone else - has i-Drive, there are significant practical considerations well beyond "cosmetics".

I will also say this: I am an SQ guy. I am about hi-fi. I can get great hi-fi results in Logic 7 cars. While I do de-process the L7 processing, I usually do it myself (no auto-adjustments). So if you want to say it's easier with aftermarket HU, sure (although the number of aftermarket HU's that are worth a damn for SQ is shrinking...) but it is not impossible or even unlikely.

As far as Technic's comments about the MoBridge piece, vaporware occasionally does come to fruition. Someday, it may show up. I can't tell you how many times I've heard this story, though, so I put less stock in it that he does. It's like Favre going to the Vikings...

I wouldn't wait for it, though - and while Technic wants to get it, he isn't waiting for it either - in that he already has upgraded and will rework his system when this becomes available (correct, T?)

[VP Electricity]

Originally Posted by Technic

Yes, they can compete and they can sound even better than aftermarket, especially if the OEM HU outputs in digital like in this case.

This is simply not true. Many aftermarket HUs nowadays sound like crap from an SQ perspective.

I would rather have an OE HU with a balanced output and a flat, full-range response than an aftermarket HU with cheap DACs and a low-cost preamp section with a common ground output.

Now, if what you mean is that the BEST aftermarket decks sound better than OEM, sure - but not all aftermarket decks are created equal, and I've heard some good quality OE decks.

Of course, if it is just a control means for your iPod, doesn't really matter, does it?

[Technic]

Originally Posted by VP Electricity

This is simply not true. Many aftermarket HUs nowadays sound like crap from an SQ perspective.

I would rather have an OE HU with a balanced output and a flat, full-range response than an aftermarket HU with cheap DACs and a low-cost preamp section with a common ground output.

Now, if what you mean is that the BEST aftermarket decks sound better than OEM, sure - but not all aftermarket decks are created equal, and I've heard some good quality OE decks.

Of course, if it is just a control means for your iPod, doesn't really matter, does it?

What I'm saying is that some OEM HU -especially the Professional HU in BMW- can compete and can even sound better than most aftermarket HUs.

I'm hoping that this MOST preamp and the MS-8 are not related in the Someday family, though.

[norcal330]

Originally Posted by VP Electricity

Two things:

1) Your comments can be applied to the OP - since he is talking about Logic 7. they are NOT relevant to non-Logic 7 cars with flat, full-range, balanced preamp outputs - which require no processing other than possible a balanced to single-ended conversion.

2) If the OP - or anyone else - has i-Drive, there are significant practical considerations well beyond "cosmetics".

I will also say this: I am an SQ guy. I am about hi-fi. I can get great hi-fi results in Logic 7 cars. While I do de-process the L7 processing, I usually do it myself (no auto-adjustments). So if you want to say it's easier with aftermarket HU, sure (although the number of aftermarket HU's that are worth a damn for SQ is shrinking...) but it is not impossible or even unlikely.

Yes, my comment was directed to the OP. I do think that Logic7 is capable of good sound, however, if you're looking for perfect tonality and imaging, the head-unit would have to go, particularly if you listen to CD, like I do (Yes, I have an ipod, but i do about 50%CD/50% ipod).

I'm with you on the slow death of SQ components. This has been happening for years now, with the rise of "integrated" OEM audio, the rise of the ipod and the incredible pressures on cost-reduction with audio manufacturers. I'm still killing myself over selling my old Nakamichi head units and even my last Alpine (CDA-9835). if I were to buy one today, I would probably only look at units from 5+ years ago.

[VP Electricity]

Sorry, T - I quoted your statement rather than the one I was disagreeing with. My bad. Apologies to all.

[norcal330]

Originally Posted by VP Electricity

Sorry, T - I quoted your statement rather than the one I was disagreeing with. My bad. Apologies to all.

you were disagreeing with me

Anyways, I guess I should have clarified. I use CDs frequently, so in my case, aftermarket will be superior to just about any OEM stereo out there, and by "aftermarket head-units", I mean a quality head-unit. As you pointed out, quality head-units are getting harder and harder to find.

If you mostly listen to an iPod with songs ripped at some compressed bit-rate, than the OEM head-unit would be just fine. It's just that the OP was looking for "perfect tonality and imaging", so I figured why not get a high-end head-unit and bypass the extra component in the signal path?

By the way, am I the only one who still listens to CDs around here???

[VP Electricity]

Originally Posted by norcal330

you were disagreeing with me

I know

Originally Posted by norcal330

By the way, am I the only one who still listens to CDs around here???

No, you are not... but I think it may be just "you and me, right, Lord?"

[VP Electricity]

BTW, a few years ago Dynaudio featured in their newsletter a 6-series where the OE system was left intact - but a McIntosh HU was installed in a beautiful underdash housing, and Dynes were in the kicks and IB in the R deck for subbass. Total parallel audio system. Dash lent itself to that approach, though...

[JL330i_UT]

cant you just turn logic 7 off?