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Mak's Stage 3 Sound upgrade
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02-10-2013, 11:14 AM | #1 |
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Mak's Stage 3 Sound upgrade
EDIT: Stage IV details added.
Audio upgrade is a bug like modding bug and when it starts, it hardly finishes. Some people use their brain and limit themselves to reasonable audio upgrade, but when you have DIY bug and you can add / replace drivers / speakers/ components out of BMW, audio upgrade hardly stops. And unfortunately, I fall into that group (other than Kaigoss, Rudz & Mob17). My journey of audio upgrade is very lengthy and I’d like to share it as if somebody wants any information on the stuff which I have used in the past. Mak Stage 1: I started my Audio upgrade with JUST hi-fi coding and L7 under seats subs. Later, I upgrade my front and rear mids to different brands including vibe slick V4, L7 mids and some good German mids with the addition of Kenwood amplifier. I also replaced L7 under seats with earthquakes (SWS-8s). That was my stage 1 upgrade and it ended with the addition of JL XD 400/4 instead of Kenwood amp. I moved to JL amp as it could take differential balanced input (low noise) with no requirements of LOC. During stage 1 upgrade, what was different to standard system? HU coded to hi-fi Addition of amplifiers Addition of different speakers Addition of different under seats Outcome learnings: Use those amplifiers which can accept differential balanced input to avoid any noise in your sound system and stay without LOC. Mak Stage 2: During the stage 2, I replaced XD400/4 with 600/6 and powered the rears speakers. I added JL 12W7 (as Infinite baffle) with JL Slash 1000/1 V2 amplifier and 2 Farad capacitor. It all worked great and sound was great for a stereo system. However my car lacked time alignment and some loss of SQ. For experimentation purposes, I bought JL MS-2 (2 channel DSP) and that worked great in my car. One of the forum member tested it my car and commented that MS-2 really tweaked my sound system to its optimal level. The outcome was to go for DSP. Along with the DSP, I wanted to go active (all crossovers setup electronically and not with passive crossovers). So, I thought of changing the HU for stage 3 upgrade. During Stage 2, What was different to Stage 1? 6 channel amplifier Addition of subwoofer with dedicated amplifier Addition of Capacitor DSP trial Outcome learnings: -I have tried different methods of subwoofer installation and IB worked excellent for me. -Having stereo sound system is great, but DSP is a good addition to your sound system if you are audiophile. -1000/1 V2 and 12W7 is way too much for my sound system (considering IB installation.) I could have lived with a sub having 700-800W RMS. -With all these upgrades, I needed to upgrade my 4 inch speakers (mids). Mak’s Stage 3: Now, this is where we are. My stage III kit consists of HU: Pioneer P99RS (Stage IV) Pioneer P88RS (Stage III) Compatible Ipod adaptor Front Mids: Focal 100 KRS Front speaker adaptors Under seats: Morel Elates 9 (Stage IV) Earthquakes (SWS-8) Steering wheel control stalk adaptor and Fakra harness for aftermarket HU JL XD 600/6 JL Slash 1000/1 V2 JL Slash 300/2 (Stage IV) JL 12W7 as IB I have tested pioneer HU extensively to establish its clip free abilities and made that as a base to set the amplifier gains. My installation started with fitting the HU in the network mode where it gives you HI, MID and LOW signals from HU and you can feed that to amplifiers. Aftermarket Fakra / harness worked without a fault (PS: I do not have reverse parking sensors). Next task was to setup the door speakers with adaptors. Although the adaptors are good in size, but their screws holes are poor. I have to widen the screw holes so the screws can sit square / flat against the adaptors. This photos shows your different ways of fitting screws I used the HU output to run front tweeters, 2 channels of XD 600/6 to feed Focals (50-60W each and they get bloody loud) and other four channels (in bridged mode) to feed SWS-8s (150W each). They were setup with Oscilloscope (O-Scope) and multi-meter. I had to use the LP filter on sub amplifier and HP filter on SWS-8 to separate their frequencies. (Semi- Active Sound system). Rest of adjustment is done at the HU and can be changed without losing any other settings. I have used pioneer auto time alignment and auto equaliser, and HU took approx 5 minutes to setup this for me. Sound changed drastically after this and with fine tuning following are parameters; Tweeters: HP @ 4KHz with 24db / oct slope and normal phase Mids: Band passed for 200Hz- 4Khz LP @ 4KHz with 24db / oct slope and normal phase HP @ 200 Hz with 24db/ oct slope and normal phase Low / Sub: SWS-8; band passed for 70-160Hz LP @ 160 Hz with 24db / oct slope and reverse phase (EDIT: It is 200Hz after I ran SWS-8 for two weeks which allowed them to break) HP @ 70 Hz with 12db / oct and reverse phase JL 12W7 LP@ 70Hz with 24db / oct and reverse phase Infrasonic filter on at 30 After setting up the system, I must say that this is the best sound system I have ever heard IMO both in terms of SQ and SPL. Fidelity of sound system is excellent. I can say that this setup is SQL. During Stage 3, what is different to stage 2? Upgraded mid drivers / speakers Aftermarket HU with built in DSP Learning outcomes: -DPS extracted best sound out of HU considering BMW internal dimensions and the speakers/ drivers I have -Aftermarket HU worked way better than BMW HU. IMO BMW HU does not produce highs and lows very well. -Earthquakes can also play mid bass if you feed them properly but within 160-180Hz (EDIT: 40Hz - 200Hz after breaking) max. You can expand the range of the frequencies but they do not play with the authority there. -Fidelity of aftermarket HU is way better than BMW alpine HU. -Hole in the BMW doors are big and 5.25 speakers with customized spacers MAY fit there. How much are you going to gain by additional 1.25 inch? This is a good topic for discussion considering the dispersion factors of the cone area at higher frequencies especially when OEM speaker location is off the axis. Thats it for the time being till I get sometime and play more with under seats.
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F36 RWD for him - HK, M sports pack, GTS tail light, Apple car play Last edited by makkan00; 03-19-2013 at 06:32 PM.. |
02-10-2013, 01:24 PM | #2 |
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Niiice, congrats! An aftermarket HU is definitely the way to go for max quality and should give you a better source!
What tweeters are you using? If you can, try playing your tweeters as low as possible, which should raise your sound stage :thumbsup Can you invert the phase of channels from the HU? How's the sub, does it integrate with your underseats nicely? Now the real fun starts, weeks of tweaking and tweaking lol, and enjoying the work! Would you ever consider competing in OEM classes? |
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02-10-2013, 02:25 PM | #3 |
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that is a nice write up defo sounds like you have the bug. I think I am in between satge1 & 2
If you dont mind me asking what was your old front speaker set up? was it L7 mids? If so if you are thinking of moving them on give me a shout |
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02-10-2013, 03:15 PM | #4 | |||
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Quote:
It is really different. You get more definition at low and high ends. Crystal clear sound, more definition. With BMW HU, I think frequencies lower than 50-60Hz were muddled. Quote:
Although Focal uses 3.5Khz as a crossover point, but I found 4K or higher xover value 'correct' balance b.w SQ and SPL. If I keep tweeter xover lower than 4K, vocal split b/w mids and tweeters and SQ get degraded. Although it is very hard to distinguish, but you can still hear it. I will give it another try. Yes mate, you can reverse the phase from the HU and change the volumer level of individual speakers as well. Much much better. With OEM HU, I could always distinguised the sub having time delay and out of phase. With inverted phase, it improved but still not inegrated into whole system. With this system, everything is so much integrated that it is very hard to distinguish. When SWS-8s fed properly, mid bass has improved significantly and I am loving mid bass which my system lacked. I have bought rainbows underseats (6.5 inch) but since SWS-8s are doing a good job, I may just get rid of them. Quote:
Sorry, I did not understand you comment on competing OEM classes? Since I am using after market HU, how can I compete in OEM classes.
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F36 Xdrive for her - HUD, park assist, heated steering wheel, rear camera, Apple car play
F36 RWD for him - HK, M sports pack, GTS tail light, Apple car play |
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02-10-2013, 03:17 PM | #5 | |
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I was using German mids. They are too deep (52 or 54mm) and they will not fit in E92. Their woofers were brilliant, though their tweeters lacked authority b/w 18-20Khz. (tested on silly cheap RTA applications, although human ear hardly hear those frquencies).
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F36 RWD for him - HK, M sports pack, GTS tail light, Apple car play |
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02-10-2013, 03:41 PM | #7 |
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Sounds like its more or less sorted now.
You can still compete if you wanted. In the EMMA OEM class you are allowed to change the source unit As long as everything else is OEM, like grills, you should be fine. |
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02-11-2013, 01:18 AM | #8 |
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do you know the max depth of E92 rear drivers?
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F36 RWD for him - HK, M sports pack, GTS tail light, Apple car play |
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02-11-2013, 01:19 AM | #9 | |
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Thanks mate. I will read T&C to see if I can participate. If the time permits, worth of trying.
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F36 RWD for him - HK, M sports pack, GTS tail light, Apple car play |
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02-11-2013, 03:01 AM | #11 |
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Great post once again. I will be interested to see your system's sound versus my one after today when it all gets finished. Two different routes to the same outcome of sonic loverly ness.
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02-11-2013, 12:18 PM | #12 |
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Sorry mate, mine are 50 or 52 mm and can't fit in yours.
I must say that they played low down to 100Hz with authority compared to Focals. If I play my focals dows to 125Hz, they start clipping. However Focals are more sensitive.
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F36 RWD for him - HK, M sports pack, GTS tail light, Apple car play |
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02-11-2013, 12:19 PM | #13 | |
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I'd love to hear your sound system as well being MB three system and that is something new.
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F36 RWD for him - HK, M sports pack, GTS tail light, Apple car play |
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02-11-2013, 01:32 PM | #14 |
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Congrats on the 3rd upgrade stage buddy, love to hear it when you're done! 12w7 as IB... now this I need to hear in comparison. I bet it'll blow the socks off mine lol!
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02-11-2013, 02:00 PM | #15 | |
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On looking at the 8" driver side by side the rubber surround on the MB Quart is much chunkier in comparison to the earthquake and the construction of it seems better. As a speaker they are very different in their delivery
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02-11-2013, 04:38 PM | #16 |
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Surely, and I am looking forward to hear your sound system. You have not updated your thread with pics and findings.
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F36 Xdrive for her - HUD, park assist, heated steering wheel, rear camera, Apple car play
F36 RWD for him - HK, M sports pack, GTS tail light, Apple car play |
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02-11-2013, 04:46 PM | #17 | |
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I am looking to change earthquakes just to find out why people are against them. I have found them versatile, with having the abilities to play low and equally play mid bass provided the condition that you feed them properly. Yes, they are power hungry but once fed properly, they work brilliantly. You will see what I mean. I think we'll compare both of these sound system when we meet. Have you tuned your sound system with TA and auto equiliser?
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02-12-2013, 01:10 AM | #19 |
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Hi Makkan , looks like you have been busy again! Being as you own a e90 [and i didnt want to start a new thread] I want to change the fronts in my car. It currently has just the door mid drivers so no tweeters. What size can I get in there and is converting the front to a 2 - way set up a pain?
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02-12-2013, 02:50 AM | #20 | |
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If you want a simple inexspensive solution you can fit the MB Quart coaxil doing away with the need of adapter plates and surrounds which will improve the standard system somewhat. As it happens i have two sets of these that are unused so if you are interested send me a PM. As i am others have discovered up grading the sound system can become very exspensive. Hope this helps
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02-12-2013, 02:58 AM | #21 | |
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Still have the MB Quart IB sub and Phoenix Gold amps though so your set might fill the void nicely.
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02-12-2013, 04:50 AM | #22 |
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Tell me about it, 6 weeks ago I was considering a budget speaker upgrade, since then I've had all the speakers replaced with Gladen units driven by Mosconi amps Front (Gladen One 120.4 DSP & Bluetooth) & Rear (120.2). By the time the MoBridge iPod controller goes in at the weekend I won't be far off £2k .... ouch
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