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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > General E90 Sedan / E91 Wagon / E92 Coupe / E93 Cabrio > THE MOST RECKLESS BMW DEALERSHIP IN THE USA... and their lawyers..



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      01-20-2012, 05:11 PM   #397
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I completely understand your frustration with your dealings with Penske and BMWNA. It's often liking running full speed into a brickwall without a helmet.

And it may well be best to move on- that is your call and yours alone.

The one underlying unanswered question of some importance to all of us still remains: Is there a systemic serious problem with the active steering system.

Don't pay too much heed to those that attempt to deride your postings for whatever reason. I think you have accounted yourself very well given what you factual knew and didn't know based on what information was made available to you.
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      01-20-2012, 05:20 PM   #398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
No dog in this fight, but to me it looks like ThereaddealBMW accomplished his mission in 5 posts or less. WOW!
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      01-20-2012, 05:55 PM   #399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaker View Post
I bet this thread will dissuade no one. While I believe Arguru had a problem with his car...WE WERE NOT THERE. He hasn't produced the repair bill so we don't even know what was done. Maybe the GM was having a bad day and that got Arguru angry and........If your dealer is treating you well and you like your car is there anyone that would switch brands because of something they read on a forum about what may or may not have happened? Really?
It certainly won't dissuade me. Someone had a problem with their car and had a crappy experience at the dealership. Wow. The only amazing thing about this is the amount of time and energy wasted on it.
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      01-20-2012, 06:49 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
No dog in this fight, but to me it looks like ThereaddealBMW accomplished his mission in 5 posts or less. WOW!
Fuck "real deal", I could care less about his banter. And fuck you too. I'm still here.

We good by that?

Last edited by arguru; 04-12-2012 at 12:59 AM.
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      01-20-2012, 07:18 PM   #401
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This should shed some light on the issue

After doing some digging, research, and consultation, I found the following.

It appears that member arguru, when he took his car in mid/late December to the other BMW dealer (not the PENSKE one), the car was diagnosed as experiencing Fault Code 61125579UW.

After some quick google-ing and consultation, Fault Code 61125579UW is for a

Bracket steering column switch (coil spring cartridge/ctrl unit steering column switch cluster 61125579)

The fault code can be found here and it is indeed related to the steering column.

http://fritzdooley.com/bmw/_servicecodes6.html

After further research, googling, e90post searching, and consultation, this fault code seems to be attributed to a SZL fault or Steering Angle Sensor Issue. When I inquired about this issue with someone knowledgeable, this should not have any effect on the loss of steering as arguru experienced.

Below pictures are the service history of argurus car which points out the note in which the error was found as well as the diagnostic note.

That said, since arguru states that his car was first taken to North Scottsdale BMW/PENSKE Dealership, this proves (in my opinion) that they misdiagnosed the issue b/c they only cleared the codes and did not diagnose the SZL issue as arguru stated. However, based on what I said above, this does not explain the loss of steering that member arguru experienced. Whether or not the two are related, I do not know, but after research and consultation, it appears the two are separate, and the SZL error would not cause a loss in steering. However, that is up for debate and Im no expert in the matter.

That said, according to the service history below, the SZL issue has been address and fixed. But the loss of steering issue has yet to be determined and may or may not be a further issue. Again, if it is related to the SZL issue, then that is up for debate. Also the question from fellow e90post members of a potential flaw in Active Steering has not been addressed either.



Lastly, I am not member arguru, just a concerned citizen
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      01-20-2012, 07:27 PM   #402
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Man, that is some high class actuarial red marker work you did there, Truth Seeker. I particularly like that bottom bracket and the arrow.
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      01-20-2012, 07:41 PM   #403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthSeeker View Post
After doing some digging, research, and consultation, I found the following.

It appears that member arguru, when he took his car in mid/late December to the other BMW dealer (not the PENSKE one), the car was diagnosed as experiencing Fault Code 61125579UW.

After some quick google-ing and consultation, Fault Code 61125579UW is for a

Bracket steering column switch (coil spring cartridge/ctrl unit steering column switch cluster 61125579)

The fault code can be found here and it is indeed related to the steering column.

http://fritzdooley.com/bmw/_servicecodes6.html

After further research, googling, e90post searching, and consultation, this fault code seems to be attributed to a SZL fault or Steering Angle Sensor Issue. When I inquired about this issue with someone knowledgeable, this should not have any effect on the loss of steering as arguru experienced.

Below pictures are the service history of argurus car which points out the note in which the error was found as well as the diagnostic note.

That said, since arguru states that his car was first taken to North Scottsdale BMW/PENSKE Dealership, this proves (in my opinion) that they misdiagnosed the issue b/c they only cleared the codes and did not diagnose the SZL issue as arguru stated. However, based on what I said above, this does not explain the loss of steering that member arguru experienced. Whether or not the two are related, I do not know, but after research and consultation, it appears the two are separate, and the SZL error would not cause a loss in steering. However, that is up for debate and Im no expert in the matter.

That said, according to the service history below, the SZL issue has been address and fixed. But the loss of steering issue has yet to be determined and may or may not be a further issue. Again, if it is related to the SZL issue, then that is up for debate. Also the question from fellow e90post members of a potential flaw in Active Steering has not been addressed either.



Lastly, I am not member arguru, just a concerned citizen
Everyone keeps saying that the Steering Angle Sensor Fault would not cause the issue arguru allegedly experienced.

No one seems to consider the possibility that the issue arguru experienced may have caused the steering angle sensor fault.

In our electronic cars, the computer doesn't know everything; it only knows what it senses, and it can only sense things where sensors are installed.

From a logical standpoint (not specifically based on BMW mechanics), an impending mechanical failure may cause some electronic fault indirectly.

Many of us BMW customers have taken an issue to the dealer only to be told "no faults stored" in the on board computer; therefore the vehicle is OK. This is a fallacy. Car mechanics have fallen victim to this assumption and consumers have largely bought it hook, line, and sinker. There are fewer and computer mechanics who can actually "diagnose" a problem by its symptoms instead of being directly told what problem exists by a computer.

Having an appropriate fault code stored requires ALL of the following, any break in the chain and you may have a problem with no code
  1. There is a sensor in the malfunctioning system
  2. That sensor is capable of detecting the fault being experienced
  3. The sensor has been installed in a way that can detect that fault
  4. The fault is one associated with a "code" - which incidentally means it must be something BMW has "considered" possible to occur. (<----This is key, If BMW anticipated the possibility of catastrophic steering failure, they would have changed the design MECHANICALLY, not put a sensor in to detect a failure and a code to report it. Thus, EVEN if everything the OP says is true, you would likely never see a code for such a failure)
  5. The malfunction has occurred in such a way to trigger the sensor
  6. ..etc (you get the point).

In arguru's case he had an electronic symptom (of something: maybe mechanical failure, maybe a simple sensor failure) in the steering system. It is certainly possible had he not been sent home prematurely, this issue may have been caught if it existed at the time. The mechanic may have gone to install a new sensor, or something of the like, and gone "Holy F-balls" your steering column is sheared in half (exaggeration for effect).

Dealers owe their customers a duty of care, it appears that duty may not have been met based on the facts above, if true. Whether that failure to meet the duty care was a cause of arguru's crash remains TBD, but the possibility is certainly there.
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      01-20-2012, 07:59 PM   #404
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Wow, so op was telling the truth and our cars could drive off the cliff on its own... Don't worry arguru, someone will soon log on and try to debunk this too because you know... You are after the money and attention :-)

F humanity, it's all gone down to shit if you ask me.
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      01-20-2012, 08:16 PM   #405
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Would love to see all the inputs to the ActiveSteering stepper motor controller logic, particularly if it includes a feed from the SZL.


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      01-20-2012, 08:32 PM   #406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam335ix View Post
Wow, so op was telling the truth and our cars could drive off the cliff on its own... Don't worry arguru, someone will soon log on and try to debunk this too because you know... You are after the money and attention :-)

F humanity, it's all gone down to shit if you ask me.

Last edited by arguru; 04-13-2012 at 12:01 AM.
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      01-20-2012, 09:51 PM   #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthSeeker View Post
That said, since arguru states that his car was first taken to North Scottsdale BMW/PENSKE Dealership, this proves (in my opinion) that they misdiagnosed the issue b/c they only cleared the codes and did not diagnose the SZL issue as arguru stated.
bombshell has been dropped




imagine that! Arguru was telling the truth despite the naysayers trying to discredit him
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      01-21-2012, 04:42 PM   #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdyaman View Post
bombshell has been dropped




imagine that! Arguru was telling the truth despite the naysayers trying to discredit him
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      01-22-2012, 11:56 PM   #409
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This thread was almost dead till TheRealDeal came along.
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      01-23-2012, 12:26 AM   #410
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+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdyaman View Post
bombshell has been dropped




imagine that! Arguru was telling the truth despite the naysayers trying to discredit him
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      01-23-2012, 12:42 AM   #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthSeeker View Post
After doing some digging, research, and consultation, I found the following.

It appears that member arguru, when he took his car in mid/late December to the other BMW dealer (not the PENSKE one), the car was diagnosed as experiencing Fault Code 61125579UW.

After some quick google-ing and consultation, Fault Code 61125579UW is for a

Bracket steering column switch (coil spring cartridge/ctrl unit steering column switch cluster 61125579)

The fault code can be found here and it is indeed related to the steering column.

http://fritzdooley.com/bmw/_servicecodes6.html

After further research, googling, e90post searching, and consultation, this fault code seems to be attributed to a SZL fault or Steering Angle Sensor Issue. When I inquired about this issue with someone knowledgeable, this should not have any effect on the loss of steering as arguru experienced.

Below pictures are the service history of argurus car which points out the note in which the error was found as well as the diagnostic note.

That said, since arguru states that his car was first taken to North Scottsdale BMW/PENSKE Dealership, this proves (in my opinion) that they misdiagnosed the issue b/c they only cleared the codes and did not diagnose the SZL issue as arguru stated. However, based on what I said above, this does not explain the loss of steering that member arguru experienced. Whether or not the two are related, I do not know, but after research and consultation, it appears the two are separate, and the SZL error would not cause a loss in steering. However, that is up for debate and Im no expert in the matter.

That said, according to the service history below, the SZL issue has been address and fixed. But the loss of steering issue has yet to be determined and may or may not be a further issue. Again, if it is related to the SZL issue, then that is up for debate. Also the question from fellow e90post members of a potential flaw in Active Steering has not been addressed either.



Lastly, I am not member arguru, just a concerned citizen
What a detailed post by TruthSeeker for his very first one here
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      01-23-2012, 12:56 AM   #412
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It's obvious he is a troll, there can be no other truth. Burn him!
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      01-23-2012, 08:41 AM   #413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dozhdbog View Post
It's obvious he is a troll, there can be no other truth. Burn him!
oh the humanity!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStigsTwin
This thread was almost dead till TheRealDeal came along.
It's probably b/c it was the weekend or perhaps people lost interest, but I think it's funny how this thread got quiet after the car's history was posted.

looking forward to "richard", the "realdealBMW", or other debunking comments


Last edited by MDyDinanM; 01-23-2012 at 09:11 AM.
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      01-23-2012, 09:21 AM   #414
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It drives me crazy when everyone says, "Oh we are tape recording all of this so watch out". Yes that can be the case sometimes but everyone should know their rights when it comes to their privacy. Here is a tidbit from wiretaping laws.

"The U.S. federal law allows recording of phone calls and other electronic communications with the consent of at least one party to the call. A majority of the states and territories have adopted wiretapping statutes based on the federal law, although most have also extended the law to cover in-person conversations. 38 states and the D.C. permit recording telephone conversations to which they are a party without informing the other parties that they are doing so.

12 states require, under most circumstances, the consent of all parties to a conversation. Those jurisdictions are California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Washington."

So to sum up, if you live in one of those 12 states, your consent is needed to be recorded. If you live in one of the 39, well you're SOL.
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      01-23-2012, 10:32 AM   #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
Everyone keeps saying that the Steering Angle Sensor Fault would not cause the issue arguru allegedly experienced.

No one seems to consider the possibility that the issue arguru experienced may have caused the steering angle sensor fault.

In our electronic cars, the computer doesn't know everything; it only knows what it senses, and it can only sense things where sensors are installed.

From a logical standpoint (not specifically based on BMW mechanics), an impending mechanical failure may cause some electronic fault indirectly.

Many of us BMW customers have taken an issue to the dealer only to be told "no faults stored" in the on board computer; therefore the vehicle is OK. This is a fallacy. Car mechanics have fallen victim to this assumption and consumers have largely bought it hook, line, and sinker. There are fewer and computer mechanics who can actually "diagnose" a problem by its symptoms instead of being directly told what problem exists by a computer.

Having an appropriate fault code stored requires ALL of the following, any break in the chain and you may have a problem with no code
  1. There is a sensor in the malfunctioning system
  2. That sensor is capable of detecting the fault being experienced
  3. The sensor has been installed in a way that can detect that fault
  4. The fault is one associated with a "code" - which incidentally means it must be something BMW has "considered" possible to occur. (<----This is key, If BMW anticipated the possibility of catastrophic steering failure, they would have changed the design MECHANICALLY, not put a sensor in to detect a failure and a code to report it. Thus, EVEN if everything the OP says is true, you would likely never see a code for such a failure)
  5. The malfunction has occurred in such a way to trigger the sensor
  6. ..etc (you get the point).

In arguru's case he had an electronic symptom (of something: maybe mechanical failure, maybe a simple sensor failure) in the steering system. It is certainly possible had he not been sent home prematurely, this issue may have been caught if it existed at the time. The mechanic may have gone to install a new sensor, or something of the like, and gone "Holy F-balls" your steering column is sheared in half (exaggeration for effect).

Dealers owe their customers a duty of care, it appears that duty may not have been met based on the facts above, if true. Whether that failure to meet the duty care was a cause of arguru's crash remains TBD, but the possibility is certainly there.
This is so very true. No longer are there mechanics they are technicians which is still more than i am so I have to give them credit for that.
But what happens when the computer is messed up? I asked this to BMW and was told that it would give an error code. If a computer is broken how does it know it is broken? If it is broken how can we be sure it is functioning well enough to give an error code or know that it should? It may think it is fine and then what happens. If something is broken or not working properly I dont expect it to act lile it should.

Without a fault code it is hard to get a car worked on. The days of listening to a car and hearing the sounds it is making,, taking t for a drive and feeling whatis going o, using the hiuman sense in addition to the computer technology are slipping away and the practitioners of this mystical art form called diganosing are hard to find and that is a shame.

OP, beleive me I know the frustration and headaches of dealing with stuff like this. Did it for years and it took a toll. Not only do you have BMW and their people but you have to deal with the owners on the forum who slam on you and question everything you say and do. So sure you are in it for a quick buck or making something out of nothing but more than happyto reap any benefit that comes from your efforts and nothing to say when they are proven wrong.
Seems like most of your free time goes to answering their accusations or dealing with BMW(both of which rank below root canals and taxes on the fun meter).
I know about some areas of these cars so I know parts of what yopu say are very true. I do not know steering so I not qualified to make any judgements there(doesnt stop some people). I know the dealership in question, have dealt with them and they turned out to be wrong in my case as well(as we know from recent settlement proposal). The thread may not have solved any major world crisis or changed the way BMW does anything but it got thier attention and it got the dealerships attention, it got other sites attention, it got owners attention, and BMW, the dealership, the other sites, and the owners read what was wriotten, and thought about it.
Thats something
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      01-23-2012, 11:55 PM   #416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
Almost everyone keeps saying that the Steering Angle Sensor Fault would not cause the issue arguru allegedly experienced...
There, taibanl, fixed that for you.

I maintain that until someone confirms to us otherwise that it is possible, from an electrical engineering perspective, that a failing/malfunctioning ActiveSteering motor controller could potentially cause the steering system to servo in an uncommanded manner that could conceivably cause conditions such as those that arguru experienced.

I am particularly interested in knowing how the SZL module (steering angle sensor) is logically connected to the AS stepper motor controller. If the SZL forms an integral portion of the system that confirms steering geometry, upon which the AS stepper motor is controlled, then one cannot rule out, however unlikely, the possibility that a failed SZL COULD have a cascade effect negatively impacting the integrity of the AS system.


Regards
D.
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      01-24-2012, 01:19 AM   #417
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"If the SZL forms an integral portion of the system that confirms steering geometry, upon which the AS stepper motor is controlled, then one cannot rule out, however unlikely, the possibility that a failed SZL COULD have a cascade effect negatively impacting the integrity of the AS system."

Several Years ago Air France Flight 447 was brought down because of a Pitot tube blockage (a sensor). The Pitot tube iced up and provided faulty readings to the Plane's flight system. Sometimes the simplest sensors can have a cascade effect negatively impacting the integrity of a system. As much as we think BMW or for the matter, any other respected company, can over engineer something, it can fail and in some cases have a negative effect. Arguru, i'll gladly back you up - Thanks for standing up to the man when many others would have easily let it go.
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      01-24-2012, 01:51 AM   #418
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Arguru, I have been following this from the beginning and I wish you the best.

I too have dealt with a penske dealer and left with a bad taste in my mouth. Took it in for some service and they said nothing could be done under warranty. Took it to another Non-penske dealer and they fixed everything under my warranty. This seems to be a reoccurring theme. When i'm in the market for an F32, it will not be at a penske dealership. This is what social media is for.
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