[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Carl Morris

Maybe the platform is too new, but this path has been trod enough that the solution will come quickly as soon as the demand is there. If I had bought an EVO I would already know the answer, I'm just trying to find out what's available for this platform now and in the near future. The problem will be solved. Even a Tilton requires occasional maintenance, but that can be done during the inevitable transfer case swaps...at least until those are made bullet proof :-).

I have a laundry list of clutches on my site. Pick 1

[Carl Morris]

If what I want isn't available by the time I need a clutch then yes, I'll pick a heavy pressure plate and an unsprung puck disk and deal with the compromises. My best experience so far is with the ACT race system and it worked acceptably well. But I'd prefer something better.

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by Carl Morris

OK, thanks for the info. My thing is that of course I need it to handle the power I expect a good single turbo kit to put out, but I also am willing to pay for something that ideally would last the life of the car. I went through a LOT of clutches in my drag raced Mitsubishi and swore I wouldn't do that again if there were a better alternative. I don't plan to make nearly as many passes in this car as I did in that car, but I still want to be able to do the occasional full boost 2-step launch at the track or on the street without having to change the clutch every year or two.

Hi Carl,

if you are really looking to install a clutch that will handle pretty much anything you can throw at it, you cannot go past an OS Giken "R3C" triple-plate clutch.

Peter's R33 GTR makes 540 rwKw on a Dyno Dynamics dyno and whilst he is a circuit racer not a drag racer, he has the utmost confidence in the clamping capability of the clutch at the strip.

So much so that he rarely drag races his Skyline as he knows the clutch ain't gonna slip, it will hold strong and in doing so perhaps obliterate a drive shaft or worse yet the R34 gearbox he has in the car.

A "R3C" 215 mm Comp' spec triple-plate is a very serious bit of a kit.

You will be rebuilding all other components in the drivetrain, long before the clutch will need to be serviced.

However a triple-plate will not be as "streetable" as the twin-plate that is going into my 135i.

The triple will be harsher on engagement than any of the OS twin-plate options, due to the clamping force of the "R" spec design pressure plate.

It will also permit less modulation of the clutch in stop-go traffic.

Though if you asked Peter he would tell you that if you need to slip a multi-plate, you should be driving a Toyota Prius.

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by Carl Morris

That's true, but:

1. He hasn't been single turbo for long, and hasn't been drag racing it using high rpm launches to spool up that big turbo. Yet.

2. He's RWD. That means harder on the tires and easier on the clutch.

If he starts running slicks and launching at full boost and 6k then he'll be using it as hard as I'm talking about.

I want to be able to do the same thing I did in my Mitsubishi if the need arises.

Yep,

I very much agree with both points you have made Carl.

As I said before I have never driven a xi, but if they hook up as well as I would expect your AWD system is a clutch killer, even on the street when using a soft compound tyre.

If you want to be able to launch the car hard out of the box at the strip, I cannot think of a better solution than a proven multi-plate clutch, such as the OS Giken units.

I have drag raced my 135i with the ACT "Street", the HPF Stage 2 "Feramic" and now we are developing an OS twin-plate for my car.

FYI,

I am not pulling my gearbox out yet again, because I find it soothing to do so on a Saturday morning.

[Carl Morris]

I'll definitely keep the Giken in mind is a possible good compromise. What attracts me to something Tilton-style is what is supposed to be very long life along with a less harsh engagement compared to a race clutch.

I'm the first one I know of to friction weld a feramic disk to a chromoly flywheel, so I know I'm not interested in that.

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by Carl Morris

I'll definitely keep the Giken in mind is a possible good compromise. What attracts me to something Tilton-style is what is supposed to be very long life along with a less harsh engagement compared to a race clutch.

I'm the first one I know of to friction weld a feramic disk to a chromoly flywheel, so I know I'm not interested in that.

Hey Carl,

I have done some further reading on the Tilton Carbon/Carbon twin-plates, they do indeed appear to be a very nice unit.

However from what I can see they range in price from $4,500-$5,000 for their 7.25" twin-plates.

That is at least another 2K over what you would pay for an OS Giken twin and FYI, the "R3C" triple-plate is not that much more expensive than the OS twin.

I would love to hear your driving impressions of a Tilton Carbon/Carbon twin-plate in your 335xi, but at nearly $5,000 I would prefer to sacrifice some drivability and go the OS Giken.

[Carl Morris]

Yes, Tiltons are expensive, and I agree with your compromise as long as the Giken lasted at least half as long. The problem is if it doesn't last much better than an ACT with a street disk (about 2 years and 100 passes) while the Tilton lasts the life of the car (which may not be exactly true) that's when just paying the $5k up front makes a lot of sense. I don't actually have experience at the high end...I just have a ton of experience at the low end and would love to avoid having to pay for all that experience again as much as possible. I'll definitely pay attention to how much life hard users get from the Giken.

[cyniclaus]

OK guys, so you scared me with the feramic clutch-welding stories and I went with the ACT; I hope it works out.

Local shop (specializes in BMW) quoted me $900 to install the clutch along with a UUC Evo3 SSK. Does that seem fair? He was openly irate that I sourced the parts myself; gave me the "do you take your own steaks to the steakhouse?" line.

[dzenno]

Man that's too expensive!!! Get the car outta there...Shouldn't be more than 450 max...the shifter is dead easy to do once the car is up on the lift and especially when the tranny is down already...you can get the turbos swapped for that much! jeez, some shops are funny

[Carl Morris]

The shop sounds like jerks. Also, just for anyone in the future that searches on Feramic and sees your comment above, I want to say one more time that normal users will not run into the problem with friction welding a feramic disk to a flywheel. Only people who launch at high rpm and full boost using slicks or AWD.

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by Carl Morris

The shop sounds like jerks. Also, just for anyone in the future that searches on Feramic and sees your comment above, I want to say one more time that normal users will not run into the problem with friction welding a feramic disk to a flywheel. Only people who launch at high rpm and full boost using slicks or AWD.

That makes me a good candidate for a feramic clutch "welder" then I have the stage 2 HPF clutch, season opens April 7th, and you know I'll BRING IT! hehe if it doesn't hold the world will know...at the same time I don't launch anywhere past 4500rpm AND I don't slip the clutch at all...2-step launch, clutch drop, feather throttle...

with a 2-step and melting DRs out back I found it best to launch at around 3800-3900 rpm..consistent 1.7-1.8 60'...that was Micky Thompson ET Street DRs totally warn too...I've got a set of brand new Hoosier DRs waiting for this next season which are softer and should hook better so we'll see what welds

[cyniclaus]

Originally Posted by dzenno

Man that's too expensive!!! Get the car outta there...Shouldn't be more than 450 max...the shifter is dead easy to do once the car is up on the lift and especially when the tranny is down already...you can get the turbos swapped for that much! jeez, some shops are funny

Yeah, I was kind of thinking it might be vindictive pricing since I didn't buy the parts from them. I specifically decided to get the shifter done at the same time since I knew it would save labor.

They are a very reputable Bimmer specialist in NE Ohio, I went to them because I heard the install can be lengthy for a mechanic who's never worked on a E9X before, and these guys touch them weekly if not daily

EDIT: I think I'll ask him how many hours he's projecting to get that cost... how long you think it should take? 4-5 ?

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by cyniclaus

Yeah, I was kind of thinking it might be vindictive pricing since I didn't buy the parts from them. I specifically decided to get the shifter done at the same time since I knew it would save labor.

They are a very reputable Bimmer specialist in NE Ohio, I went to them because I heard the install can be lengthy for a mechanic who's never worked on a E9X before, and these guys touch them weekly if not daily

N54 manual tranny is dead easy to work on...the only sort of an issue for a 1st timer touching it is the the two top bolts on the housing are a bit of a pain...but if they've done it even once its not a problem at all...

3-4 hours max for labour...if their hourly rate for labor is over 200-300/hr then i see how they came up with that stupid price...bmw tax man, don't do it there

pisses me off every time I see this shit happening out there honestly

[cyniclaus]

Originally Posted by dzenno

N54 manual tranny is dead easy to work on...the only sort of an issue for a 1st timer touching it is the the two top bolts on the housing are a bit of a pain...but if they've done it even once its not a problem at all...

3-4 hours max for labour...if their hourly rate for labor is over 200-300/hr then i see how they came up with that stupid price...bmw tax man, don't do it there

pisses me off every time I see this shit happening out there honestly

Thanks, I'm so glad we have these forums and helpful people on them

Is that 4 hours including the shift kit or would that add another hour?

I'll let you know what he says. Giving them the benefit of the doubt for now because I don't want to smear their name, which is pretty well respected

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by cyniclaus

Thanks, I'm so glad we have these forums and helpful people on them

Is that 4 hours including the shift kit or would that add another hour?

I'll let you know what he says. Giving them the benefit of the doubt for now because I don't want to smear their name, which is pretty well respected

yes it does...if they're a "well respected" bmw shop then they should know their way around bmws...shouldn't even take 4 hours...i had lunch, coffee and a walk around the mall the first time I had my clutch replaced...it took about 3 hours...second time, different shop, took less than 3...SSK is a piece of cake when the tranny is down

[cyniclaus]

Okay, so I talked to the guy again and this time he said about $800. When I asked him how many hours he was projecting, he said 9. When I told him there were people saying it should take less than 4, he just said "well, that's what we charge". So I told him I'd get a quote elsewhere and let him know.

I called a reputable local shop known for their tranny work and they quoted me $850 "ballpark" (just for the clutch) and thought the job would take 11 hours. They said that cost & time included machining the flywheel.

I think I'll go to the regional forums and try to get some better recommendations.

[cyniclaus]

The clutch (ACT Street/organic) and SSK (UUC Evo3) are installed!

After getting several quotes, none of which were dramatically cheaper than the Bimmer specialist, I ended up going and getting the work done with him. Most shops said that the X-drive made the job considerably more difficult.

As far as DIY, there is no way I was going to attempt to disconnect and lower axles and a transfer case and place a non-OEM part as critical as the clutch. It ran me just under $1000 for labor on the clutch, SSK, and CDV delete + replacement bearings that they had to order, and the mechanic said it took them over 7 hours. From my perspective, just as a man who represents himself at trial has a fool for a lawyer, a mechanically inexperienced car enthusiast who decides to DIY on major repairs is putting his ride in the hands of an untrained, unlicensed, and uninsured mechanic.

The clutch is in now, and seems fine but it has significant shuddering at engagement, which I really really hope will go away after break-in. I talked to the mechanic who did the labor and he said the flywheel didn't look like it needed to be replaced or resurfaced, so at least that is comforting. First impressions are that the required pedal pressure is much increased over stock, though not to the point of discomfort. The engagement point is also much lower; it now feels like the top 30-50% of clutch pedal travel does absolutely nothing. Makes me wish I could do something that would accomplish the opposite of a clutch stop to pick up the slack. Only time will tell how this works out, and so far my only real regret is that I wasn't able to test drive someone's car with the more robust 6-puck version in it, as I have heard conflicting reports as to how much of a compromise on stop-and-go driveability it actually presents and I would have appreciated the added peace of mind that the added torque spec would have provided.

Compared to the stock shifter, the UUC Evo3 shifter requires more muscle (due to the weight?), is noiser and feels more mechanical. The reduction in throw distance is there, but a lot less dramatic than I was expecting. It does feel a bit less rubbery, as is to be expected given the construction. Probably the thing that will take the most getting used to is that the knob position has shifted to the right. For example, when in first gear the knob feels like it is physically where it used to be when it was in third. First impression is a very minimal improvement over stock that I personally would not feel justifies the expense, but I still need to play around with the height of the knob to see if it feels better lowered as opposed to fully extended as it is now. Also, due to the clutch break-in, I haven't been driving agressively, so maybe the benefits will be more obvious under those conditions.

Thanks again for all the advice; you've all been helpful and informative!

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Hi Gents,

my OS Giken "TR2CD" twin-plate has arrived from Japan.

However my 10 kg "Single Mass Steel" flywheel is yet to be sold.

Would someone like to turn that frown upside down?

Seriously guys I will post up some pics of the OS 215 mm twin-plate basket soon.

It certainly is a sexy looking bit of kit, I just have to get "Ross" to machine up a suitable flywheel, then in she goes.

Cheers,

JD.

[tscdennab]

Originally Posted by cyniclaus

The clutch is in now, and seems fine but it has significant shuddering at engagement, which I really really hope will go away after break-in. I talked to the mechanic who did the labor and he said the flywheel didn't look like it needed to be replaced or resurfaced, so at least that is comforting. First impressions are that the required pedal pressure is much increased over stock, though not to the point of discomfort. The engagement point is also much lower; it now feels like the top 30-50% of clutch pedal travel does absolutely nothing.

Compared to the stock shifter, the UUC Evo3 shifter requires more muscle (due to the weight?), is noiser and feels more mechanical. The reduction in throw distance is there, but a lot less dramatic than I was expecting.

It's strange, my clutch does not shudder at all at engagement. Does it shudder regardless of how abrupt you are shifting ? Did the mechanic at least clean the flywheel with some brake cleaner, if not even sanding it before installing the new clutch ? Also the bolts which tighten the clutch to the flywheel must be torqued in a special way, 15Nm + 90 degrees torque angle. Bentley manual helps a lot. If the clutch plate is not correctly torqued it may result in shuddering.

You really should have resurfaced the flywheel, you may get away with no resurfacing but until now I don't know anyone without resurfacing and with a long-life second clutch (of course, used in abusive conditions )

Was the UUC shifter much cheaper than the BMW Performance one ? The Performance SSK has a really significant reduction in shift throw and the shifting effort is the same as stock.

[Alpina_B3_Lux]

Originally Posted by cyniclaus

The clutch is in now, and seems fine but it has significant shuddering at engagement, which I really really hope will go away after break-in.

I have the same with my new clutch (ClutchMasters FX300). After 1000km it's still there, so I don't think it will go away. Is a bit annoying in first gear and reverse, but I can live with it.

Originally Posted by cyniclaus

I talked to the mechanic who did the labor and he said the flywheel didn't look like it needed to be replaced or resurfaced, so at least that is comforting.

I had a brand new OEM flywheel installed, so I think it doesn't have anything to do with the flywheel.

Originally Posted by cyniclaus

First impressions are that the required pedal pressure is much increased over stock, though not to the point of discomfort. The engagement point is also much lower; it now feels like the top 30-50% of clutch pedal travel does absolutely nothing. Makes me wish I could do something that would accomplish the opposite of a clutch stop to pick up the slack.

Same for me here, engagement point is indeed quite a bit lower, clutch seems to be engaged after 30% travel back or so, with the first engagement after 5-10%.

Alpina_B3_Lux

[cyniclaus]

Originally Posted by tscdennab

It's strange, my clutch does not shudder at all at engagement. Does it shudder regardless of how abrupt you are shifting ? Did the mechanic at least clean the flywheel with some brake cleaner, if not even sanding it before installing the new clutch ?

I've found that if I let the clutch out very gradually without touching the gas pedal, I can get the car rolling in first with no shudder. But when I try to goose the gas and let it out a bit quicker, that's when it complains. I'm just under 200 miles on the clutch, so I haven't tried any kind of "launch"

It doesn't shudder between gears either, only when engaging first or reverse

I really don't know what prep was done to the flywheel...probably none. The mechanic did state that it looked fine. Of course, as vague as that expression is, it could mean anything or even nothing at all. They did say if it continues to bring the car back, but I'm sure they're not going to want to spend several hours of shop time just to do checks but, if they failed to properly inspect when the job was done, then that's a different story

Originally Posted by tscdennab

Was the UUC shifter much cheaper than the BMW Performance one ? The Performance SSK has a really significant reduction in shift throw and the shifting effort is the same as stock.

I did quite a bit of research and the UUC EVO3 seems to be the best regarded shifter at anywhere near the price. It was $355. It seems to be getting a little better as it breaks in, but that could just be me getting used to it as well.

[cyniclaus]

Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux

I have the same with my new clutch (ClutchMasters FX300). After 1000km it's still there, so I don't think it will go away. Is a bit annoying in first gear and reverse, but I can live with it.
I had a brand new OEM flywheel installed, so I think it doesn't have anything to do with the flywheel.

Thanks...that's at least comforting to know it may be a natural part of an aftermarket clutch. When I tried researching the problem, "shuddering" was sometimes equated with "chatter"...I always thought chatter was a noise thing more than a tactile experience. There is no noise from the ACT, but there is definitely that shuddering