[Irishace]

Background

Dzenno and I thought it would be interesting to compare boost and ignition curves for the JB3 V2.0 and Procede V4 by combing our data logs of a ¼ mile pass we each performed this summer. The graph below plots the data from a ¼ mile pass from each of our cars both of which resulted in a 121mph trap speed.

We thought that because our trap speed results were the same, it would be interesting to compare the way our boost and ignition behaved. You can draw your own observations and conclusions from this comparison but it does point out some differences. We look forward to hearing people’s thoughts on these results, and in particular the thoughts of the more technically savvy community members.

JB3 Car (Map 11)

• Auto transmission
• VC2 Meth (80/20 meth mix) 8 psi min 12 psi max
• CM7 + CM5 dual nozze setup
• MS109 Race Gas
• Full Bolt Ons
• MT Drag Radials

Procede V4 Car

• Manual ransmission
• VC2 Meth (80/20 meth mix) 8 psi min 12 psi max
• CM7 nozzle
• MS103 Race Gas
• Full Bolt Ons
• MT Drag Radials

Graph


Initial Observations

• The spikes showing in Dzenno’s boost curve are shift spikes
• Dzenno’s timing is consistently strong throughout 3rd and 4th gear
• Irish’s curve is radically different and a little low but shows a steady climb post shift
• Dzenno’s low boost during 1st gear was established through Procede settings to produce less torque on launch to preserve his axels
• 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear boost is very similar between the two tunes (JB3 slightly higher boost)

The JB3 track run used in this comparison was executed in May of this year. Since the time of the run, I have gone to dual CM7 nozzles, running a 60/40 meth mix and have dropped down to map 10 for the track.

In executing these changes my ignition timing has improved significantly (consistently 8-12 degrees) with this approach. Using this approach, I was also able to record a 123mph trap. Dzenno can respond to any questions regarding his curves.

We look forward to your observations and hopefully this kind of comparison adds some value to the community in an effort to learn more about our tunes in a high performance high boost scenario.

EDIT

Ignition graphs added seperately for each of the runs without any data cropping:

[Blaizon]

Good post, I like the fact based comparison.

[OpenFlash]

Irish-- your dme was sensing knock post shift despite running higher octane and more meth/water than Dzenno. Which explains why your car was making less power despite running higher average boost in your 6at 135 vs his 6mt 335. No surprise that running more meth/water and less boost made your car run faster eventually. Good comparison and thanks for taking the time to plot the two logs on a single graph.

And your car will run faster still if you solve the knock issue through retuning keep boost high and cut back on the water content. Water helps with knock bit it costs power. You shouldn't be seeing knock at that boost level with ms109 and meth. Even with just a single m7.

Shiv

[Irishace]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Irish-- your dme was sensing knock post shift despite running higher octane and more meth/water than Dzenno. Which explains why your car was making less power despite running higher average boost in your 6at 135 vs his 6mt 335. No surprise that running more meth/water and less boost made your car run faster eventually. Good comparison and thanks for taking the time to plot the two logs on a single graph.

Shiv

Thanks Shiv, great feedback, very much appreciate your insight.

One other point of interest is how impressive the Procede is at logging. I received the .csv file from Dzenno and it captured 10x the amount of data rows vs. the JB3.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Irishace

Thanks Shiv, great feedback, very much appreciate your insight.

One other point of interest is how impressive the Procede is at logging. I received the .csv file from Dzenno and it captured 10x the amount of data rows vs. the JB3.

No problem. Just a word of warning though: judging by your log, You are/were at the point at which things can go bad very quickly. This isn't a tuner war instigation. But an observation based on obvious data that you collected.

[forza1976]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

No problem. Just a word of warning though: judging by your log, You are/were at the point at which things can go bad very quickly. This isn't a tuner war instigation. But an observation based on obvious data that you collected.

What do you notice Shiv? Honestly interested in what you are seeing.

[Irishace]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

No problem. Just a word of warning though: judging by your log, You are/were at the point at which things can go bad very quickly. This isn't a tuner war instigation. But an observation based on obvious data that you collected.

Yep, I was very concerned with the low timing of the log at the time it was captured. I took a number of steps to correct the defficiencies including lowering boost and increasing methanol spray. It has made a dramatic difference from a safety and power perspective.

It goes to show you how critical it is to log timing (thanks to Clap, JPslick and Dzenno for drilling this into me) and learn from the results when you are pushing the boundaries

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by Irishace

Yep, I was very concerned with the low timing of the log at the time it was captured. I took a number of steps to correct the defficiencies including lowering boost and increasing methanol spray. It has made a dramatic difference from a safety and power perspective.

It goes to show you how critical it is to log timing (thanks to Clap, JPslick and Dzenno for drilling this into me) and learn from the results when you are pushing the boundaries

If timing was a concern, why not switch over to a Procede which has CPS offsetting? Just curious

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by forza1976

What do you notice Shiv? Honestly interested in what you are seeing.

Assuming the Y-axis scaling between the two logs are the same, Irish's car is in a state of moderate to severe knock retard, in every gear, throughput the entire run. Just after timing drops to 0deg (normal during the 6at upshift), timing doesn't recover to the normal 10-11 deg value it should in knock-free conditions. Instead, it starts off at just 2 degrees and then slowly ramps up from there. Throughout most of the run, he's seeing anywere from 6-8 deg of knock retard. Which means that the DME responded to knock twice (each reaction results in 3 deg retard). Which means the knock was severe enough that the first retard even wasn't enough and required a second. On race gas+meth at 19-20psi of boost, that is disturbing. Those who drag race and datalog know what I'm talking about.

To put this in perspective for those running Procede, Irish's effective aggression value would be over 6. And Dzenno's, by comparison, is less than 1 as it should be with race gas/meth. Not unexpected given the vastly different tuning strategies. But no less alarming (especially for Irish).

Shiv

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Irishace

.
It goes to show you how critical it is to log timing (thanks to Clap, JPslick and Dzenno for drilling this into me) and learn from the results when you are pushing the boundaries

I'm glad you are looking beyond your timeslips and taking a peek into how your engine is tuned. Make no mistake, with your datalog, the only boundry you are pushing is seeing how much knock your engine can withstand before needing to be rebuilt/replaced. You're not pushing any power boundry as these engines will make heaps more power assuming proper tuning/control.

shiv

[forza1976]

Thanks Shiv, appreciate the info.

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Assuming the Y-axis scaling between the two logs are the same, Irish's car is in a state of moderate to severe knock retard, in every gear, through the run. Just after timing drops to 0deg (normal during the 6at upshift), timing doesn't recover to the normal 10-11 deg value it should in knock-free conditions. Instead, it starts off at just 2 degrees and then slowly ramps up from there. Throug most of the run, he's seeing anywere from 6-8 deg of knock retard. Which means that the DME responded to knock twice (each reaction results in 3 deg retard). Which means the knock was severe enough that the first retard even wasn't enough and required a second. On race gas+meth at 19-20psi of boost, that is disturbing. Those who drag race and datalog know what I'm talking about.

To put this in perspective for those running Procede, Irish's effective aggression value would be over 6. And Dzenno's, by comparison, is less than 1. Not unexpected given the vastly different tuning strategies. But no less alarming (especially for Irish).

Shiv

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by forza1976

Thanks Shiv, appreciate the info.

+1 Very informative for sure

[Alan l.]

Great post!

[dzenno]

Thanks for posting Irish..good discussion too..

I have one comment for shiv and a question..comment: this was on map2 with 100% UT and 0% ign corr and auto tuning was, I'm pretty sure, could be wrong, "OFF".
Question: how is procede different in that mode of operation than the jb3 in terms of timing as it doesn't autotune boost or timing in that setup...Whenever I'm at the strip autotune is off (except for this past weekend) as recommended. I run map 2 20psi no ign correction. What would be the difference between the 2 tunes timing/boost wise, strictly in this drag setup configuration where 100+ octane is used and meth

[Irishace]

Originally Posted by Blaizon

Good post, I like the fact based comparison.

Originally Posted by forza1976

Excellent comparison. Nice to see that side by side!

Originally Posted by Alan l.

Great post!

Thanks, the post was meant to illicit technical feedback based on data without getting into a giant tuner war. So far so good, great feedback so far.

[onesuperboi]

Great comparison. It's interesting to see how timing ramps up with the JB3 and how the PROcede picks up timing from where it was before each shift.

I think this shows that the PROcede controls the timing whereas the JB3 uses the DME for timing control.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by dzenno

Thanks for posting Irish..good discussion too..

I have one comment for shiv and a question..comment: this was on map2 with 100% UT and 0% ign corr and auto tuning was, I'm pretty sure, could be wrong, "OFF".
Question: how is procede different in that mode of operation than the jb3 in terms of timing as it doesn't autotune boost or timing in that setup...Whenever I'm at the strip autotune is off (except for this past weekend) as recommended. I run map 2 20psi no ign correction. What would be the difference between the 2 tunes timing/boost wise, strictly in this drag setup configuration where 100+ octane is used and meth

You can (and should) leave autotuning ON at the drag strip. When running race gas and/or meth, your aggression value should never go higher than 2 (the default target). In fact, it will probably say under 1 which means that autotuning will ramp things right up to the max boost setting and down to 0% ignition correction.

The difference is, even with 0% ignition correction, the Procede still applies a dynamic correction during sudden load transitions which you see at every upshift. Which is why Irish is knocking (with the jb3) and you are not (with the Procede) despite similar conditions, boost and octane. We just chose not to show it as a datalog parameter since we wanted to keep this extra bit (among other things) to ourselves.

Shiv

[BrianMN]

I would love to see more of these comparisons.

Does anyone want to "Mate" logs with me? haha

6MT
Full bolt ons
No Meth
Procede
I have race gas and pump gas logs

[Sniz]

I really apprecaite seeing these logs.

I would also reallllly love to see standard pump gas logs to compare what most users are using every day, not just the balls to the wall 20psi runs.

[Irishace]

Originally Posted by Sniz

I really apprecaite seeing these logs.

I would also reallllly love to see standard pump gas logs to compare what most users are using every day, not just the balls to the wall 20psi runs.

I think we can arrange that

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Sniz

I really apprecaite seeing these logs.

I would also reallllly love to see standard pump gas logs to compare what most users are using every day, not just the balls to the wall 20psi runs.

I agree. Pump gas logs are useful too. And it's also important to differentiate between standard boost pump gas logs and high boost race gas/meth logs.

Pump gas timing logs: Normal to see some evidence of timing retard. Some degree of knock retard is acceptable since the DME is designed to operate at the knock threshold. Excessive knock retard is unnacceptable because this indicates that the engine is operating well beyond the knock threshold. If this is happening at 12-15psi, something is wrong.

Race gas/meth timing logs: You should see almost no evidence of timing retard. Knocking at 20psi of boost is far more damaging that knocking at 12-15psi of boost. And if you are knocking with race gas/meth, something is VERY wrong. Either your tune is too aggressive. Or it's just not doing what it should do.

To put things in perspectively, on pump gas at 14-15psi, my car routinely operates with an aggression value to 2 ("mild" average knock retard). But at 20psi running race gas AND methanol, my car rarely sees an aggression level more than 0.5-0.7 (minimal/almost no knock retard). Seeing more frequent/more serious knock retard at those HIGH power levels can quickly result in an expensive engine rebuild.

It's pretty intuitive: The more power your engine is generating, the more conservatively it needs to be tuned with respect to knock resistance. A few pings at a 500hp output level is far more damaging than a few pings at the 350hp output level.

Hope that helps...

Cheers,
shiv

[wonsungnabi]

Any concern with shift spikes?