[tscdennab]

Originally Posted by stratos_335

My buddy who does a lot of streetracing with 1st and 2nd gear pulls fried his OEM and then his organic ACT clutch. He updated to 6-puck and convinced me to buy one for my car too.

I drove his car. There is harsh engagement when the car and the flywheel is cold and need to rev around 1000-1100 rpm int the morning. After a few minutes, the clutch feels the same in engagement as the organic.

Interesting, I kept reading negative reviews as far as driveability (and longevity) of the 6-puck. I didn't install my ACT organic clutch yet, I wonder if I should buy the 6-puck disk (it's quite cheap).

Did you notice any chatter noises or other transmission noises ?

[stratos_335]

Originally Posted by tscdennab

Interesting, I kept reading negative reviews as far as driveability (and longevity) of the 6-puck. I didn't install my ACT organic clutch yet, I wonder if I should buy the 6-puck disk (it's quite cheap).

Did you notice any chatter noises or other transmission noises ?

My friend is the one who installed tha 1M flywheel which is dual mass.

No chattering at all, I drve his car with both the organic and the 6-puck. Same pedal feeling, no chattering at all, harsh engagement when cold, like the organic after a few minutes in feeling and smoothness.

It's pretty useless to use a 6-puck for FBO and meth unless someone dragraces his car. Organic should be fine. 6-puck is for those that race their cars really often and/or want ot upgrade his turbos.

The feeling was the same with the organic except the harsh engagement on cold starts. As for durability, time will show

[runthis]

Originally Posted by Justin@ADVAN Performance

Hey cyniclaus,

I have used the ACT "Street" clutch on the OE dual mass flywheel and HPF's new "Feramic" face clutch with a Stage 2 pressure plate.

I very much concur with dzenno's assessment of the ACT.

In short it is an excellent clutch which has been underrated by ACT.

From my experience it will hold a lot more than 456 ft-lbs of crank torque.

It is super "streetable" and the pedal pressure is quite comfortable, considering the diaphragm setup in the pressure plate they use, exerts a clamping load of approximately 2750 lbs.

It will handle a lot of abuse on the street, even if you are FBO with "upped" turbos.

However as you are AWD be careful launching the car, the organic lining will disintegrate quickly if you launch the car hard repeatedly with the above mods.

I have never driven a 335xi, but if the AWD system is every bit as good as those you will find in even the early model Skyline GTR's, you will hook up.

Yes,

you are every much correct with regards, "no wheelspin means the drivetrain absorbs extra shock."

What a lack of wheelspin will also do is cause the clutch friction plate to slip on the driven face of the flywheel, if the friction material does not have enough bite and/or there is insufficient clamping load being applied by the pressure plate.

If you have no intention of launching the car hard, the ACT "Street" will hold up pretty well even when you go RB turbos.

With regards HPF's new "Feramic" face clutch, it will definitely hold more crank torque than the ACT.

FYI,

The pedal pressure will increase as you move from Stage 1 through to Stage 3.

I have only seen a Stage 2 pressure plate, but I suspect all three plates use the same diaphragm finger and the fulcrum ring is changed in order to increase clamping load. The clamping load exerted by the Stage 2 plate installed on my car was around 2,420 lbs.

The engagement should not change, as that is a function of the material used on the surfaces on the friction plate and whether or not it's a full face or paddle (puck) style plate.

A sprung centre hub will be smoother again on engagement, however the OE dual mass flywheel does a very good job of eliminating any shudder you may experience with an unsprung clutch plate.

In summary the HPF Stage 2 "Feramic" face clutch kit will undoubtedly hold more torque than the ACT "Street", whilst retaining a high degree of "streetability".

The engagement is quite smooth even when mated to our non dual mass flywheel and the pedal pressure is a little less than the ACT unit.

The clutch can also be modulated easily in stop-go traffic and is far removed from the "light switch" operation of a paddle (puck) style clutch.

However if it's launched hard at the strip on drag radials, it's very much prone to welding and in your case cyniclaus, your xi AWD system almost allows you to have pair of Hoosiers in your back pocket, on a daily basis.

Cheers,

JD.

Very well said.

[Alpina_B3_Lux]

Originally Posted by dzenno

+1 Once kevlar is heavily slipped it never recovers like an organic does...given the type of driving Alpina does (nurburgring and not drag strip) I doubt it'll be an issue...it also won't like stop/go traffic at all where the only choice really is organic or feramic

Exactly, I do not have any intention of going to the dragstrip (which is not so popular here in Europe anyway). As for stop&go - hard to avoid when stuck in traffic, but I believe if handled carefully the clutch should allow for this.

For breaking it in I was just intending to drive it normally (i.e. without any high rev launches), but still dynamically (i.e. without driving like a grandma). Would you recommend anything more specific?

Alpina_B3_Lux

[dzenno]

I'd just drive it normally...you can do anything you want with the clutch actually just don't do any fast shifts (no lifts shifts) or hard launches as you don't want to slip it...a hard single gear pull "once you're in gear", based on everything I've read and also been told by CM and HPF, is just fine...just basically avoid high slip situations and you can drive as you wish

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by cyniclaus

Thanks for your comments!

Well, I won't be going to the dragstrip on a regular basis, but I can't say I'd never "launch" the car, so the ACT may not be the safest choice

However, now you've got me afraid of the HPF welding!

No safe choice?

That's cool cyniclaus,

more than happy to offer a little advice.

If you were never going to drag race the car or launch it hard on the street for that matter, I would go the HPF "Feramic" Stage 2.

The HPF "Feramic" is not likely to slip when you grab 3rd and 4th gears, on a super quick change (even with RB turbos).

However as I said please be warned, if you launch the car hard on the street and you hook up via AWD, you may indeed weld it.

If you were to do a 6,000 rpm 2-step launch at the strip, I suspect you will be using a hammer and cold chisel to remove the friction plate from the flywheel driven surface, the following day.

We are in the process of developing a twin-plate for my car, I hope to have it installed in my 135i by the end of the month.

For anyone that is interested in our multi-plate clutch, I will be posting progress reports in our "Single Mass Steel" flywheel thread.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=626557

Off topic I know,

but I am also selling my 10 kg chromoly flywheel at well below our cost price, as it will not be suitable for our twin-plate application.

You will find the details in the above thread.

Cheers,

JD.

[runthis]

Originally Posted by stratos_335

My buddy who does a lot of streetracing with 1st and 2nd gear pulls fried his OEM and then his organic ACT clutch. He updated to 6-puck and convinced me to buy one for my car too.

I drove his car. There is harsh engagement when the car and the flywheel is cold and need to rev around 1000-1100 rpm int the morning. After a few minutes, the clutch feels the same in engagement as the organic.

Really, I can't wait installing mine.

Maybe you are a lot better at driving it than I, I've had it for about a year, it works perfectly fine... But I'm paying to have it replaced, and adding RB's, and Helix.
If I to get close to the drivability of OEM/ACT organic, I will be a very happy man.

[cyniclaus]

Originally Posted by Justin@ADVAN Performance

If you were to do a 6,000 rpm 2-step launch at the strip, I suspect you will be using a hammer and cold chisel to remove the friction plate from the flywheel driven surface, the following day.

Thanks for the very colorful warning

So essentially my choice is between

1. A clutch that anectdotal evidence suggests may go out prematurely due to AWD (ACT street)

2. A clutch that may have driveability issues (ACT 6-puck)

3. A clutch that will make me paranoid of any kind of launch due to the risk of needing a chisel afterwards (HPF Feramic)

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by cyniclaus

Thanks for the very colorful warning

So essentially my choice is between

1. A clutch that anectdotal evidence suggests may go out prematurely due to AWD (ACT street)

2. A clutch that may have driveability issues (ACT 6-puck)

3. A clutch that will make me paranoid of any kind of launch due to the risk of needing a chisel afterwards (HPF Feramic)

Welcome to modding with high power!

Btw I think any premature wear has to do with driver and install. But no one should expect an aftermarket clutch to outlast a stock clutch at stock power.

[ar design]

Well said. For 99% of people the ACT Street disk is more than enough

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by cyniclaus

Thanks for the very colorful warning

So essentially my choice is between

1. A clutch that anectdotal evidence suggests may go out prematurely due to AWD (ACT street)

2. A clutch that may have driveability issues (ACT 6-puck)

3. A clutch that will make me paranoid of any kind of launch due to the risk of needing a chisel afterwards (HPF Feramic)

Ummm,

you overlooked option 4.

"We are in the process of developing a twin-plate for my car, I hope to have it installed in my 135i by the end of the month."

Our twin-plate will be perfect for an AWD vehicle.

It will have far better modulation than any puck style clutch and the pedal pressure will be much less than any single plate clutch, that has an equivalent torque rating.

It will handle a 6,000 rpm 2-step launch at the strip with no problem.

We are building the clutch setup around an OS Giken "basket" and the flywheel will be machined by "Ross".

The above application will be perfect for all forms of racing, in particular drag racing where a clutch that does not slip is paramount.

However whilst I believe the final kit will cost somewhat less than the ClutchMasters twin-plates, it ain't gonna be a steal like the ACT "Street" clutch.

Cheers,

JD.

[Carl Morris]

I am intrigued. But I'd be willing to pay even more for a light carbon/carbon system.

[SRanch335i]

Originally Posted by dzenno

ACT Street has proven to be very reliable on my car after tons of runs, flat foot shifting action and drag strip fun...i'd definitely give it both thumbs up for anyone on stock turbos...anything above that definitely HPF Feramic although if you have the cash you could go with their Stage 1 and be done with it too

+1

[cyniclaus]

Originally Posted by Justin@ADVAN Performance

Ummm,

you overlooked option 4.

"We are in the process of developing a twin-plate for my car, I hope to have it installed in my 135i by the end of the month."

Our twin-plate will be perfect for an AWD vehicle.

That sounds awesome... but I wonder how long before they will be available. My stocker is slipping worse every day, so I'm not sure how long I can afford to wait

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by Carl Morris

I am intrigued. But I'd be willing to pay even more for a light carbon/carbon system.

Hey Carl,

I will have more information on our OS Giken based, multi-plate clutch soon.

We could also do a "carbon/carbon system" as we have a contact at Xtreme Clutches in South Australia.

They have partened with "Carbonetic" to produce a large range, of carbon twin-plate clutch kits.

They do not offer a solution for the N54 platform at the moment.

But ADVAN could most certainly assist in the rapid produciton, of a prototype twin-plate for the N54.

That being said it ain't gonna be cheap.

I would dare say that it would retail way North of $3,000 Aus and that would be with us working on a very small margin.

To be quite blunt,

we can pretty much design and fabricate anything you guys require.

However ADVAN Peformance is a small business, as such Peter does not have the ability to write cheques to cover substantial R & D costs, for products that may or may not sell.

If one of you Gentlemen were to throw a tight roll of Benjamin Franklin's on his office desk and say "make it happen", you guys would be simply amazed at what we could deliver in a very short space of time.

Cheers,

JD.

[Carl Morris]

Thanks for the reply. I guess we'll see when the time comes. I'm pretty sure the Carbonetic product for Mitsubishis is well under $US 3k, so I guess I wasn't expecting it to be a $5k product unless it was made by Tilton.

[Justin@ADVAN Performance]

Originally Posted by Carl Morris

Thanks for the reply. I guess we'll see when the time comes. I'm pretty sure the Carbonetic product for Mitsubishis is well under $US 3k, so I guess I wasn't expecting it to be a $5k product unless it was made by Tilton.

Hey Carl,

apologies for the slow reply.

With regards pricing on a Carbonetic friction plate version, my assumption is based on the cost of a 215 mm twin-plate from Xtreme Clutches.

That being said after speaking to Peter he is not interested in developing a twin-plate for the N54 unless it is OS Giken based, at least at this stage.

Peter has been building circuit cars for more than 15 years and has either installed, serviced or driven a multi-plate clutch from pretty much every manufacturer available (save the latest carbon plate offerings).

He is not saying the multi-plates that use carbon friction materials are a bad thing, not at all.

It is just that they are relatively new to the market compared to the offerings from a company such as OS Giken, that have a proven track record in all forms of motor sport.

If you were to talk multi-plate clutches with guys from the high horsepower AWD Skyline community, I guarantee they will give OS a big .

The other thing you guys need to consider when investing in a multi-plate clutch setup, it both the ability and cost to service the clutch.

The individual components of an OS Giken unit are readily available and their rebuild kits are quite reasonably priced.

Cheers,

JD.

[Carl Morris]

OK, thanks for the info. My thing is that of course I need it to handle the power I expect a good single turbo kit to put out, but I also am willing to pay for something that ideally would last the life of the car. I went through a LOT of clutches in my drag raced Mitsubishi and swore I wouldn't do that again if there were a better alternative. I don't plan to make nearly as many passes in this car as I did in that car, but I still want to be able to do the occasional full boost 2-step launch at the track or on the street without having to change the clutch every year or two.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Carl Morris

OK, thanks for the info. My thing is that of course I need it to handle the power I expect a good single turbo kit to put out, but I also am willing to pay for something that ideally would last the life of the car. I went through a LOT of clutches in my drag raced Mitsubishi and swore I wouldn't do that again if there were a better alternative. I don't plan to make nearly as many passes in this car as I did in that car, but I still want to be able to do the occasional full boost 2-step launch at the track or on the street without having to change the clutch every year or two.

Shiv from Vishnu runs a Spec Stage 2+ on his single turbo. From what I hear it holds up just fine and he doesnt drive like a grandma

[Carl Morris]

That's true, but:

1. He hasn't been single turbo for long, and hasn't been drag racing it using high rpm launches to spool up that big turbo. Yet.

2. He's RWD. That means harder on the tires and easier on the clutch.

If he starts running slicks and launching at full boost and 6k then he'll be using it as hard as I'm talking about.

I want to be able to do the same thing I did in my Mitsubishi if the need arises.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Carl Morris

That's true, but:

1. He hasn't been single turbo for long, and hasn't been drag racing it using high rpm launches to spool up that big turbo. Yet.

2. He's RWD. That means harder on the tires and easier on the clutch.

If he starts running slicks and launching at full boost and 6k then he'll be using it as hard as I'm talking about.

I want to be able to do the same thing I did in my Mitsubishi if the need arises.

I dont know for sure but I think you are looking for the "unrealistic woman". You know...freak in the sheets lady in the streets. It's hard to find both. Especially in a platform that is frankly to "new".

Better said your looking for a drag tire that is good in the snow and in the rain and can turn well... not realistic.

I think you need to roll the dice.

I'm sure if this was an evo 9 we could tell you what clutch would be perfect but anyone telling you they can offer you a great clutch that your grandma can drive, but can hold 600WHP+ for AWD drag strip launching at 6000 RPM....

[Carl Morris]

Maybe the platform is too new, but this path has been trod enough that the solution will come quickly as soon as the demand is there. If I had bought an EVO I would already know the answer, I'm just trying to find out what's available for this platform now and in the near future. The problem will be solved. Even a Tilton requires occasional maintenance, but that can be done during the inevitable transfer case swaps...at least until those are made bullet proof :-).