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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Vishnu Technical: Ignition timing control facts



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      07-22-2009, 01:48 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nj1266 View Post
What do you mean by "systems." There are no systems in the ECU. There are multiple 3d/2d maps. If you have access to these maps, then please show them to us. Please share with us the so-called "adaptation" maps. Post and image of these maps, please. Stop talking in the abstract and show us the adaptation maps in the ECU.

Every ECU map that I have looked at has a high octane and low octane timing and fuel maps. When the car is running w/o knock, the ECU uses data from the high octane maps. When the car starts to continuously knocks, the ECU interpolates to the low timing and fuel maps to preserve the engine. In these maps the AFR is richer and the timing is retarded.

Maybe the DME is different, but YOU will have to prove it by showing US the maps. You are the one questioning how the proceed works, not us.

So please get images of the maps from the DME and post them so we can all see this adaptation that you speak of.

Until then you have proved nothing and shown nothing.
Why does it suddenly feel like 2007? Do this experiment on your 335. Run 91 octane and monitor total timing advance during WOT. Then run 93 octane and do the same. Report back

Mike
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      07-22-2009, 01:49 PM   #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scalbert View Post
Please correct that statement as you know it to be untrue. There was no rigging of a sensor to keep the throttle open. It kept it open more often; the throttle plate closed less often and to a lesser degree but it still responded to changes in load. The DME still had full authority as you very well know. I would expect you, out of professionalism, to acknowledge the truths here as well as the deceptive statements.

Wasn't some work performed in the JB3 programming to limit this occurrence as well?
Am I just that bad of a writer or do you not read my posts?

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      07-22-2009, 01:50 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
Why does it suddenly feel like 2007? Do this experiment on your 335. Run 91 octane and monitor total timing advance during WOT. Then run 93 octane and do the same. Report back

Mike
I don't think you are in any position to ask people to conduct and report data, Mike/Terry.

Shiv
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      07-22-2009, 01:53 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
Am I just that bad of a writer or do you not read my posts?

Mike
Doh, did you edit it or was my multitasking turned off for that moment?

Post removed to avoid confusion.
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      07-22-2009, 01:59 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scalbert
And one last time as I see it has been ignored. Why did BMS state the JB3 had a proprietary timing control system that was a direct method which did not exist. This was only stated after CAS was found to not exist in the JB3. Was it was a lie, marketing, or what? Just put this one to bed so we can focus on the test data.
I don't believe a direct method of timing control was ever claimed, simply timing control, but I believe what you are referring to came before my time as a vendor. There is something unique about the way the JB3 addresses (or attempts to addresses, from your perspective) the timing adaptions to prevent unnecessary knock while adapting timing down. As you know something as simple as adding 1psi of boost results in lower timing through the normal DME operation, thus any system, even the SSTT, can make the accurate claim of timing control. Beyond that you'll have to take it up with BMS/Terry (send him an email) I don't have the source code nor the inclination to carry on a fight that started long ago about marketing claims. If we want to talk about today's marketing claims I'm sure we can find plenty of grievances on either side to argue about.

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      07-22-2009, 02:01 PM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
I don't believe a direct method of timing control was ever claimed, simply timing control, but I believe what you are referring to came before my time as a vendor.
Fair enough and I appreciate the response.
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      07-22-2009, 02:10 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nj1266 View Post
What do you mean by "systems." There are no systems in the ECU. There are multiple 3d/2d maps. If you have access to these maps, then please show them to us. Please share with us the so-called "adaptation" maps. Post and image of these maps, please. Stop talking in the abstract and show us the adaptation maps in the ECU.

Every ECU map that I have looked at has a high octane and low octane timing and fuel maps. When the car is running w/o knock, the ECU uses data from the high octane maps. When the car starts to continuously knocks, the ECU interpolates to the low timing and fuel maps to preserve the engine. In these maps the AFR is richer and the timing is retarded.

Maybe the DME is different, but YOU will have to prove it by showing US the maps. You are the one questioning how the proceed works, not us.

So please get images of the maps from the DME and post them so we can all see this adaptation that you speak of.

Until then you have proved nothing and shown nothing.
Just an FYI, Naj, I know that you learned to tune on, and pretty much only tune, Evos. One thing you need to realize is that there are many different ways to skin a cat, and the logic structure utilized on the SH based ECUs is ridiculously straightforward to compared to the vast majority of the Bosch and Siemens systems. When I did work for APR, there were literally a hundred maps that were changed, many requiring automated processing after the fact in order to make everything "jive" without getting into too much detail....and this was on systems that are now considered outdated. There were no such things as high and low octane maps. You are highly underestimating Siemen's logic, and what their system is capable of.... verbage you wish to call it, aside.

BTW, you aren't the only person with a thread or two in the ecuflash forum
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      07-22-2009, 02:16 PM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A418t81 View Post
Just an FYI, Naj, I know that you learned to tune on, and pretty much only tune, Evos. One thing you need to realize is that there are many different ways to skin a cat, and the logic structure utilized on the SH based ECUs is ridiculously straightforward to compared to the vast majority of the Bosch and Siemens systems. When I did work for APR, there were literally a hundred maps that were changed, many requiring automated processing after the fact in order to make everything "jive" without getting into too much detail....and this was on systems that are now considered outdated. There were no such things as high and low octane maps. You are highly underestimating Siemen's logic, and what their system is capable of.... verbage you wish to call it, aside.

BTW, you aren't the only person with a thread or two in the ecuflash forum
All modern ECUs are very similar in concept. They are not mysterious black boxes with hundreds of adaption channels. The Siemens ECU is just more developed than most. But the underlying relationships are no different than in other applications.

Shiv
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      07-22-2009, 02:16 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
I don't think you are in any position to ask people to conduct and report data, Mike/Terry.

Shiv
Plenty of data has been collected the past few days. Out of courtesy we have not posted much of it until we can achieve a repeatable result, or determine that results can never be repeated. The objective is to put forth tests that the general population can repeat for a wider sample.

Let's wait for the data and then we can discuss it together, along with the community.

Mike
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      07-22-2009, 02:18 PM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
Why does it suddenly feel like 2007? Do this experiment on your 335. Run 91 octane and monitor total timing advance during WOT. Then run 93 octane and do the same. Report back

Mike
Huh!!!! Did I miss something here!!! When you question how an interceptor works and you flat out state that there are adaptation maps in the ECU WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE, then it is incumbent upon YOU to provide the data/images.

You are the one who is making a fuss and not me. You go ahead and get a rom image from a 335i DME and post the adaptation maps.

You have to prove it to us and not the other way around.
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      07-22-2009, 02:42 PM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
As you know something as simple as adding 1psi of boost results in lower timing through the normal DME operation, thus any system, even the SSTT, can make the accurate claim of timing control.
Mike
So how the DME actually KNOW there is that additional boost if the jb3 intercepts the MAP signal and offsets it ?

Harry
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      07-22-2009, 02:47 PM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTUNER View Post
So how the DME actually KNOW there is that additional boost if the jb3 intercepts the MAP signal and offsets it ?

Harry
It doesn't. Mike is saying that extra boost results in knock activity which causes the ECU to drop timing and adapt accordingly. The "quality" of this adaption is what is in question. His statement that this knock/knock retard relationship suggests that any tune can claim "timing control" only makes sense in the mind of a infomercial pitch man.

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      07-22-2009, 02:49 PM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
It doesn't. Mike is saying that extra boost results in knock activity which causes the ECU to drop timing and adapt accordingly. The "quality" of this adaption is what is in question. His statement that this knock/knock retard relationship suggests that any tune can claim "timing control" only makes sense in the mind of a infomercial pitch man.

Shiv

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      07-22-2009, 03:57 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by TurboSid View Post
ouch !!!!!!
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      07-22-2009, 04:14 PM   #257
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R.I.P....
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      07-22-2009, 04:27 PM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
It doesn't. Mike is saying that extra boost results in knock activity which causes the ECU to drop timing and adapt accordingly. The "quality" of this adaption is what is in question. His statement that this knock/knock retard relationship suggests that any tune can claim "timing control" only makes sense in the mind of a infomercial pitch man.

Shiv
Agreed - i am not a fan of using the knock retard function to control timing. Although its not a N54 i have observed that on Z32's if you "ride the knock control system" the engine does fine for 10 - 15 k miles but slowly starts degrading over time. You see this in the form of frequent plug replacement and eventually exhaust valve erosion and lack of compression. I feel that something similar might happen on this engine, we are simply not seeing the bad effects yet but over time there will be a price to pay.

Harry
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      07-22-2009, 04:35 PM   #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
Why is it that when Shiv posts an explanation/graphs or whatever, people come out nowhere to attack, but when Adrian posts an explanation you can just about hear crickets chirping.
I believe it's Adrian's tone when he explains thing.. He doesn't belittle people or speak negatively about other "tunes", nor does he excessively try and insinuate anything. His information is straight to the point, and he includes disclaimers like "oh, this may or may not be the case", whereas Shiv just shovels everything down ur throat in a condescending way to make his product look good vs. the "other" tunes.
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      07-22-2009, 04:51 PM   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTwinz View Post
I believe it's Adrian's tone when he explains thing.. He doesn't belittle people or speak negatively about other "tunes", nor does he excessively try and insinuate anything. His information is straight to the point, and he includes disclaimers like "oh, this may or may not be the case", whereas Shiv just shovels everything down ur throat in a condescending way to make his product look good vs. the "other" tunes.
I noticed @n54tuning.com is trying to act a little nicer. If he's really Terry he'll erupt sooner or later.
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      07-22-2009, 05:27 PM   #261
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I noticed @n54tuning.com is trying to act a little nicer. If he's really Terry he'll erupt sooner or later.
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      07-22-2009, 06:02 PM   #262
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You guys are good. Aquatic Kingdom is my good friends company, which I help him out with web related things and we are sharing the same hosting package to run both sites

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      07-22-2009, 06:09 PM   #263
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I have spent some time looking at datalogs collected from a Stage 3 car on 91 octane, similar to Vishnu's car in terms of mods, octane, and climate. The problem is the run to run variances are so huge they make analysis impossible. For example in these two logs (both CPS enabled), captured 15 minutes apart, both with an equal starting IAT, same road, same map/settings, we have timing differences of 4-5 degrees in parts. The variance completely eclipses the offset applied.

I've requested a few JB3 map 7 logs be done under similar conditions to see if they are more stable or not and will share those once they are complete so we have a comparison.

Mike
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      07-22-2009, 06:53 PM   #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
All modern ECUs are very similar in concept. They are not mysterious black boxes with hundreds of adaption channels. The Siemens ECU is just more developed than most. But the underlying relationships are no different than in other applications.

Shiv
Yes Shiv, I'm very aware of what is inside a modern ECU. Maybe in the very basic concepts....the basics always remain the basics, but the German ECU guys like to be creative in how they achieve that final output. The older ME7s and 8s were very dissimilar as compared to an SH Evo ecu, which was my point. I'm not here to discuss the adaptation crap, I don't care and have my own informed opinion which hasn't been changed, though I do like to read the better posts in this thread.
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