[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by Stangorang

I am not going to go searching through all your posts. You consistently insinuate that LL-01 oils are the only oils capable of protecting this engine. Without data it's another opinion among many.

Where is the list of rejected oils?

Dude, chill out a bit... It is absolutely stupid for any manufacturer to create a list of NON-COMPATIBLE oils. There are literally thousands of different brands and grades. The manufacturers create an engine and then they test it and based on their tests they come up with a list of required lubricants. Not the other way around. It would be stupid to test what DOES NOT WORK in an engine.

Here you are trying to convince everyone that people can run in their N54 whatever jungle juice they find cheaper on the Walmart shelves because there is no list of rejected oils. Seriously? With all due respect, I think you need to work on your analytical skills!

I've said this before and I will reiterate it one last time. Steps for selecting engine oil:

Step 1: Choose oil from the BMW LL-01 list.
Step 2: Begin testing using UOA tests such as the one provided from Blackstone Labs to determine the optimal drain interval for YOUR engine given YOUR driving style and YOUR specific environmental variables.

If you want to use some mystery jungle juice, then go ahead, no one is stopping you. Just stop spreading misinformation for the rest of the members of this community!

[ManyMoonsAgo]

"Until the boutique oil purveyors have their oils tested by BMW and approved - if they pass, they should not be used as they will void the engine warranty and can cause increased engine wear or serious damage"

I have had heartburn with statements like that as well.

The two statements:
1) Non-LL01 oils do provide the same or greater protection as LL01 oils.
2) Non-LL01 oils do not provide the same or greater protection as LL01 oils.

Are essentially the same to me - both are opinion. Neither can be proven true or false and as such, any further statements or claims derived from either is just more opinion.

The only fact we have is that BMW says to use LL01 oils in North American applications.

Now I certainly have strong opinions on the subject, and yes, I have delved into these types of debates in the Maintenance thread, but it's early this morning and I will just say to do your own research, be wary of marketing claims made by all parties, use the products you feel are best, and above all enjoy your BMW; it is the Ultimate Driving Machine after all...DOH, there is more of that marketing stuff. LOL.

[BMWsky]

Originally Posted by Stangorang

I would venture a guess and say those 15k changes have something to do with cost savings for BMW and their maintenance programs...

A lot of people hold this belief. I do remember reading research findings in military vehicles which stated that there was no difference in engine wear between vehicles that changed oil every 3000 miles vs engines that went over 10,000 miles. IIRC, they weren't using synthetic oils either. That would seem to substantiate BMW and other car manufacturers claims that you can drive over 10,000 miles without oil changes. With that being said, call me old fashioned, but I still won't go that long between oil changes.

[DieselDiner]

Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115

I bought pentosin 5W-30, and will use it in my next oil change. Its doing fine in my FSI audi right now.

Where did you buy the Pento? Link please! I'm very interested in their 5W-40 LL04 for my d.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

The bottom line is BMW backs their oil requirements with their engine warranty. You would need to check with BMW to see what they charge for testing and certification. With profit margins of several dollars per qt. it should not take long for the boutique oil purveyors to recoup the cost of testing.

Until the boutique oil companies have their oils tested and approved - which won't happen because they aren't likely to pass, no one should use these unapproved oils.

Track Rat, no one gives a Rats A**(no pun intended) about what BMW claims with their warranty. Fact is their warranty runs out and during and out of that peroid, BMW expects you to NEVER change ANY automotive fluid in the vehicle for the "lifetime" of said vehicle! WTF??? I've been changing my coolant, power steering, brake, auto trans, and rear differential fluid with NON OEM fluids of my choice. I'm not dumb. BMW engineers put LL01 approved 5W-30 in E46 M3's initially, and after a lot of engine repairs, changed it to: "Castrol 10W-60". Weather the 10W-60 is LL01 or not, I'm not sure, but to me that sounds like engineers that don't exactly know what they are doing! You put a lot of faith in an approval from the year 2001. We've had these debates for several threads in the maintenance forums, and I've even read your anti-LL04 stuff you tried to give to guys on this section of the forum like, Mr 5, who's running double stock power levels, and you were laughed off. Give it a rest, will ya?

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Dude, chill out a bit... It is absolutely stupid for any manufacturer to create a list of NON-COMPATIBLE oils. There are literally thousands of different brands and grades. The manufacturers create an engine and then they test it and based on their tests they come up with a list of required lubricants. Not the other way around. It would be stupid to test what DOES NOT WORK in an engine.

Here you are trying to convince everyone that people can run in their N54 whatever jungle juice they find cheaper on the Walmart shelves because there is no list of rejected oils. Seriously? With all due respect, I think you need to work on your analytical skills!

I've said this before and I will reiterate it one last time. Steps for selecting engine oil:

Step 1: Choose oil from the BMW LL-01 list.
Step 2: Begin testing using UOA tests such as the one provided from Blackstone Labs to determine the optimal drain interval for YOUR engine given YOUR driving style and YOUR specific environmental variables.

If you want to use some mystery jungle juice, then go ahead, no one is stopping you. Just stop spreading misinformation for the rest of the members of this community!

Vasilov, for a guy who likes to tune, his car beyond factory boost levels, out of warranty, your showing some ignorance when it comes to the basics like engine oil. Let me point out a few things on your "list" that you might not have noticed is wrong:

1. Several Oils are BMW LL01 approved, that appear no where on their list. Has it ever occured to you that the list might be for companies that payed for their buddy BMW to put them on there? Pentosin is LL01 approved, and so is Total, but you don't see them listed on that list.

2. Why would you do a used oil analysis, when the BMW LL01 is supposedly a test? Why not continue to get the brain washed information from the stealership, and drain it at 15,000 miles. Also why pay for a separate oil analysis, when your car came equipped with an oil analyzer? Edmunds Insideline, has done extensive tests, and relying on the car's oil analyzer is just fine, since its going by conductivity levels set off by wear metals.

Vasilov, since you are tuned, why would you expect BMW LL01 oils to hold up in your engine, since you are WAY out of factory specs? Most guys like you who push the envelop and mod their cars, DON'T use factory stuff because they are outside those specifications. They rely on the boutique stuff, which you are so quick to put down.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by ManyMoonsAgo

The only fact we have is that BMW says to use LL01 oils in North American applications.

Now I certainly have strong opinions on the subject,

Two good sayings come to mind here. "Opinions are like butts, we all have them and......". I don't have an opinon on LL04 oils used in North america, I went out and used them for about 20K miles, with no issues whatsoever. Still waiting for my engine to explode... oh wait, that was the '01 M3 guy's engines, following BMW advise on oil grade. The fact is that all BMW LL04 oils are also LL01 approved. LL04 is the same thing as LL01, just with some adjustments targeted at the exhaust systems of diesel engines. Why live with myths perpetrated online?

[acdHQK713K]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Dude, chill out a bit... It is absolutely stupid for any manufacturer to create a list of NON-COMPATIBLE oils. There are literally thousands of different brands and grades. The manufacturers create an engine and then they test it and based on their tests they come up with a list of required lubricants. Not the other way around. It would be stupid to test what DOES NOT WORK in an engine.

Here you are trying to convince everyone that people can run in their N54 whatever jungle juice they find cheaper on the Walmart shelves because there is no list of rejected oils. Seriously? With all due respect, I think you need to work on your analytical skills!

I've said this before and I will reiterate it one last time. Steps for selecting engine oil:

Step 1: Choose oil from the BMW LL-01 list.
Step 2: Begin testing using UOA tests such as the one provided from Blackstone Labs to determine the optimal drain interval for YOUR engine given YOUR driving style and YOUR specific environmental variables.

If you want to use some mystery jungle juice, then go ahead, no one is stopping you. Just stop spreading misinformation for the rest of the members of this community!

Your first paragraph is exactly my point. BMW has not tested all the oils within a certain viscosity range so there is no way to know if LL-01 oils provide better protection than non-LL01 oils. I am not saying BMW should produce a list of rejected oils, I am just curious if such a list exists.

At no point did I say people should go buy whatever is on sale a Autozone.

Telling forum members their engines will wear faster with non-LL-01 is unsubstantiated drivel.

As has already been stated, many of us are tuned. I highly doubt BMW strapped a tune on their test car when selecting oil. Is their testing sequence still applicable then? BMW's statements regarding LL-01 oil use likely came from the same "research" that lead to the 15k OCI recommendation. If you are so adamant that LL-01 is the magic bullet for this car because of BMW's distinguished research, then why bother with UOA?

As far as I am concerned, when this car is pushing twice the stock boost levels, BMW's endorsements are borderline insignificant.

[acdHQK713K]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Everything I stated is correct as documented by BMW's own oil testing and warranty requirements.

Until the boutique oils are tested and pass the LL-01 oil sequence testing they are not appropriate for use in a BMW gas engine for use in the U.S.

You can stay in denial as long as you want but it doesn't change the facts.

Show me the BMW documents where they compared a non-LL-01 oil to an LL-01 oil and the detrimental effects that resulted.

It is a fact that the all non-LL-01 boutique oils are inappropriate for warranty purposes, only. Not for protection purposes as you keep stating. That is still up in the air.

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115

Vasilov, for a guy who likes to tune, his car beyond factory boost levels, out of warranty, your showing some ignorance when it comes to the basics like engine oil. Let me point out a few things on your "list" that you might not have noticed is wrong:

1. Several Oils are BMW LL01 approved, that appear no where on their list. Has it ever occured to you that the list might be for companies that payed for their buddy BMW to put them on there? Pentosin is LL01 approved, and so is Total, but you don't see them listed on that list.

I did not say use the list of approved oils that BMW is providing you. I am saying: Pick oil that meets the BMW LL-01 spec. That's all. I think you are confusing the two.

2. Why would you do a used oil analysis, when the BMW LL01 is supposedly a test? Why not continue to get the brain washed information from the stealership, and drain it at 15,000 miles. Also why pay for a separate oil analysis, when your car came equipped with an oil analyzer? Edmunds Insideline, has done extensive tests, and relying on the car's oil analyzer is just fine, since its going by conductivity levels set off by wear metals.

Really? Are you serious? I am actually amazed at myself that I will actually grant you a response on that one:

You want to do an UOA testing because every engine is different, driving habits are different, environment variables are different. Therefore, you cannot be sure how long it will take before a fresh pour of oil becomes ineffective in lubricating your engine. By doing the UOA, you eliminate the guess work that people usually end up doing in their minds( "Should I change at 5K miles or should I change at 10K miles...."

Oh, and concerning the built in oil sensor. That device is so limited in its functionality that I have hard time trusting it to tell me the correct oil level. This sensor so to speak is coupled with ECU programming logic to "ATTEMPT" to guess if it is time to change the oil. Do you think it is capable of doing spectral analysis? No it is not. Also, if your engine develops a problem, say with the piston rings, the sensor won't know anything about it, but a spectral analysis would clue you in.

Furthermore, once you establish your optimal drain interval, you don't have to purchase UOA tests all the time. Perhaps once per year is sufficient and thats only to verify that the the oil company has not changed the formulation and that your engine has not developing a problem that has not fully presented itself.

Vasilov, since you are tuned, why would you expect BMW LL01 oils to hold up in your engine, since you are WAY out of factory specs? Most guys like you who push the envelop and mod their cars, DON'T use factory stuff because they are outside those specifications. They rely on the boutique stuff, which you are so quick to put down.

This has to do with mechanical engineering and material science. Each engine is built from a specific alloys and components and with a specific tolerances. My engine mods leave the internals unchanged, therefore, the components are the same and so are the tolerances. I am not introducing a new material into the system. This should be obvious to you....

[vasillalov]

Stangorang,

I repeat one more time: noone is forcing you to use any specific oil. You can do whatever you want with your car.

What we want you to do is to stop spreading misinformation on this forum for the rest of the people who don't know enough to make an educated decision. That's all.

Fact is: you have absolutely no proof that NON-LL-01 oils provide the same level of protection as LL-01 oils do. You may suspect that is the case, but you have no hard proofs. So arguing this point is silly.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Fact is: you have absolutely no proof that NON-LL-01 oils provide the same level of protection as LL-01 oils do. You may suspect that is the case, but you have no hard proofs. So arguing this point is silly.

Yes your right. We don't have any "proof". All tests can actually be rigged, and disputed endless too, which is why I rely more on real world experiences. The fact is that its a: "you get what you pay for world", and "if somethings cheap, its cheap for a reason." So called boutique oils like redline, royal purple, and amsoil, are synthetic based, and priced well above $10/qt. Yes, you risk it when you use them, but I'd be damned if they can survive punishment in Ford GT's, and GT 500's pushing well over 500 hp, they should be able to handle a tiny little european 3 liter. Also, keep in mind that there are several E46 BMW owners on e46fanatics.com that use these oils religiously. While there is no LL01 test done on them, they haven't seen any type of engine failure issues whatsoever attributable to these oilds. Even the transmission oils from redline and amsoil are doing just fine. In fact there is a poll showing a much higher failure rate in those people who didn't change out their transfluid, or used OEM!! I bring up their cars because these guys are by now averaging 120K+miles.

[jimk]

Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115

Yes your right. We don't have any "proof". All tests can actually be rigged, and disputed endless too, which is why I rely more on real world experiences. The fact is that its a: "you get what you pay for world", and "if somethings cheap, its cheap for a reason." So called boutique oils like redline, royal purple, and amsoil, are synthetic based, and priced well above $10/qt. Yes, you risk it when you use them, but I'd be damned if they can survive punishment in Ford GT's, and GT 500's pushing well over 500 hp, they should be able to handle a tiny little european 3 liter. Also, keep in mind that there are several E46 BMW owners on e46fanatics.com that use these oils religiously. While there is no LL01 test done on them, they haven't seen any type of engine failure issues whatsoever attributable to these oilds. Even the transmission oils from redline and amsoil are doing just fine. In fact there is a poll showing a much higher failure rate in those people who didn't change out their transfluid, or used OEM!! I bring up their cars because these guys are by now averaging 120K+miles.

+1

Proof is real world examples. I have been lurking around the BMW forums for years now and I have never seen an engine failure because of using boutique oils. Are real world examples from actual BMW owners (including myself) more trustworthy as to what a company publishes? You have to decide the answer to that.

It is my opinion that BMW has done all the tests necessary to make sure that their oils with the said oil change intervals will not cause an engine to fail during the warranty period. To me, it all comes down to how long you want to keep your car. I have made my decision and have chosen Redline for longevity of my engine and turbos as I believe it is one of the better oils for the high revving, hot running N54.

[jimk]

TrackRat,

Calm down, you're making a fool of yourself. We get your point but what part of the real world experience didn't you understand? This is not all black and white buddy, there is a high level of marketing and sales motives behind whatever a company publishes and that is true for BMW, Redline and others. I may not be an oil expert and unless you show us your credentials proving otherwise, nor are you in my book. I have years of experience of how companies operate and I am able to read behind the lines so don't insult my intelligence. I have made my choices and you have made yours. Time will tell who's right.

[acdHQK713K]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

This is precisely the problem - you have NO objective, scientific proof what so ever that any of the boutique oils are appropriate for use in a BMW or any other engine - None. It's your baseless "opinion" that these oil purveyors have done enough testing. Well until they have BMW run the LL-01 oil sequence testing they have not done enough testing. You "believe" that Redline is better suited for your "high revving, hot running N54" - but you have absolutely no test data to support your belief. You don't know a damn thing about Redline oil other than ad hype. Do you think BMW has ever tested an N54 engine to see what a high revving, hot running N54 engine requires for oil? Your logic is so flawed as to be laughable.

This is the problem with all oil zealots - you believe advertising hype because you lack the technical expertise to understand that you are being duped by unscrupulous operators who refuse to have their oils tested and certified - because their oils are unlikely to pass the LL-01 or other Euro oil specs.

Just because you don't know of premature engine wear or damage does not mean it doesn't exist. It does exists and the reason car makers specify the required oil is to prevent technically challenged people from self-inflicting damage to their engine.

I can attest to the fact that Euro car makers have declined warranty coverage for engines that have experienced terminal failure from use of non approved engine oils. It's never easy telling an owner that their technical ignorance is going to cost them $15,000+ for a new engine, but it happens.

You have presented no objective information yourself. Because BMW says so is not proof of anything. I have asked you to show me numbers with direct comparisons and you have yet to do so. All you have to do is reproduce the results and you win. Very simple.

I liken this to an argument about proof that God exists. I may think He doesn't but I can't prove that belief. Likewise, you have no way of proving He does. It's faith and a belief.

To spread your belief and faith that the short list of BMW LL-01 oils is superior to all the boutique oil in terms of protection, and that such faith should be regarded as fact is delusional at best. I have faith that there are several oils without an LL-01 stamp that are as good as or better than BMW's list of oils. I do not blindly proclaim that theory as fact.

You have one fact correct. BMW says use those oils to maintain the warranty. However, your belief that they offer superior protection is nothing more than an assumption void of verifiable evidence. Produce numbers and I will agree with you. Until then, stop publicizing your opinions has fact.

[vasillalov]

It seems that talking to Stango and Turkeybaster is like arguing with a radio...

I deem this thread worthless at this point because I see nothing constructive coming out of it.

[acdHQK713K]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

It seems that talking to Stango and Turkeybaster is like arguing with a radio...

I deem this thread worthless at this point because I see nothing constructive coming out of it.

And you and RatTrap should make friends with Mr. Webster and look up the definition of fact. Show me the objective research and I am on your side. Until that point don't confuse the word fact with opinion.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by jimk

TrackRat, Calm down, you're making a fool of yourself. We get your point but what part of the real world experience didn't you understand?.

or don't feed the rat, in our case.

[antonio335]

Originally Posted by Stangorang

You have presented no objective information yourself. Because BMW says so is not proof of anything. I have asked you to show me numbers with direct comparisons and you have yet to do so. All you have to do is reproduce the results and you win. Very simple.

I liken this to an argument about proof that God exists. I may think He doesn't but I can't prove that belief. Likewise, you have no way of proving He does. It's faith and a belief.

To spread your belief and faith that the short list of BMW LL-01 oils is superior to all the boutique oil in terms of protection, and that such faith should be regarded as fact is delusional at best. I have faith that there are several oils without an LL-01 stamp that are as good as or better than BMW's list of oils. I do not blindly proclaim that theory as fact.

You have one fact correct. BMW says use those oils to maintain the warranty. However, your belief that they offer superior protection is nothing more than an assumption void of verifiable evidence. Produce numbers and I will agree with you. Until then, stop publicizing your opinions has fact.

Ok in resumen the pentosin oil is not good for use in my car !!!!!!!!

[ManyMoonsAgo]

Originally Posted by antonio335

Ok in resumen the pentosin oil is not good for use in my car !!!!!!!!

LOL - actually the Pento High Performance 5W30 has the LL-01 accreditation.

We are on the cusp of personal attacks, so this oil debate thread is well on it's way!

[DieselDiner]

From "BMW Operating Fluids" dated October 2010:

For BMW gasoline engines with two valves per cylinder, all reputable multiple grade engine oils* which meet or exceed
the API classification of SH. (Combination with diesel oil specifications CD or CE quality classifications are also permitted,
e.g. SH/CE etc.)

For BMW gasoline engines with four valves per cylinder, only reputable multiple grade engine oils* which meet or exceed
the API classification of SH. (Combination with diesel oil specifications CD or CE quality classifications are also permitted,
e.g. SH/CE etc.)

I agree with the premise of always using an LL01 oil in a gas engine (U.S) to stay in BMW's good graces for warranty purposes.

However, once out of warranty, based on BMW's instructions quoted above, wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that API's SH classification could be substituted for BMW's LL rating for oils that don't carry the BMW rating? This would seem to be a rational way to assess the appropriateness of any oil that doesn't carry the BMW rating.

[NiVeDh]

The way I see it, there are two options:

(1) you can use an LL-01 oil that's certified by BMW to meet standards for an engine that they designed
(2) you can run a non-approved oil that has not been tested and certified by BMW, hoping that it will be good for the engine

At the end of the day, it's your engine. If you want to take a risk and run the non-approved oil, then it's your call. The bottom line is, you just don't know if the non-approved oil is going to be better or worse than an approved oil. You're taking a chance. It could turn out to be awesome or it could turn out to be a disaster - can you live with that uncertainty?