[fluidkaos]

Originally Posted by The Ghost

So much hate;I don't get it. Buy a product or don't buy it. Why yap so damned much?

Originally Posted by turb0mike

Gone are the days where people beef about being a 'better/quicker driver.'

Who gives a fuck about numbers, let's just have a friendly BBQ and tech session so all the people who are "WTF"ing about tuning details can get a better understanding. Perhaps a track day?!?!?! hehe.

I'd love to jump in on that if I were in the country for more than two weeks at a time.

(Most)Everyone else in this thread....
Haters gonna hate, taters gonna tate.
The more options we have the better, hardware, software, or otherwise.
Everyone has a different idea of what 'better' is regarding performance. Competition is good for a variety of 'better', so long as it's not followed by vitriolic hate.

[guru_method]

It's like the Real Housewives of E90post. I should tell my girlfriend to get an account here, she loves this kind of crap.

[Laguna Seca Blue]

It really is a crying shame that this thread degenerated the way it did. I honestly feel terrible for Shiv. He has been tuning professionally for 20 years and has dedicated the last 6 years of his career to the N54 platform. Here he is trying to educate someone whose biased ignorance is quite frankly reprehensible and the swarm of bees from the other forum descend on him. Give the guy a break. You guys are polluting e90post with all your hate.

[MM Performance]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Not understanding much in the way of engine tuning/theory does help when it comes to being confident about engine tuning. Please re-read my previous post with regards to the relationship between thermal efficiency and EGT. In layman's terns: If an engine is running high boost and making relatively low power, it isn't running efficiently. Which means that it's generating a lot of heat. This is fact. I cannot change that.

What shiv is saying in his first few posts about EGTs are simple thermodynamic principals any mechanical engineer should understand. Good engineering judgement would bring us to the conclusion that the EGTs should be higher because boost for the bigger turbos is so high and power is relatively low for that boost level. Like shiv said, Its all a thermal balance equation, so where does the heat go? If it isnt used to produce work (or power) than it has to balance somewhere, and that is in the exhaust - wasted work energy that is bad for the engine. It is technically speculation, but speculation founded on empirical data and sound engineering principals so at a minimum VTT should post data (that they probably have) to dispel the concern or at least address it.

I try to stay silent on these type of thread but when it comes to sound engineering principals, we need to all be on the same page.

[Laguna Seca Blue]

Originally Posted by SlickSilver

What shiv is saying in his first few posts about EGTs are simple thermodynamic principals any mechanical engineer should understand. Good engineering judgement would bring us to the conclusion that the EGTs should be higher because boost for the bigger turbos is so high and power is relatively low for that boost level. Like shiv said, Its all a thermal balance equation, so where does the heat go? If it isnt used to produce work (or power) than it has to balance somewhere, and that is in the exhaust - wasted work energy that is bad for the engine. It is technically speculation, but speculation founded on empirical data and sound engineering principals so at a minimum VTT should post data (that they probably have) to dispel the concern or at least address it.

I try to stay silent on these type of thread but when it comes to sound engineering principals, we need to all be on the same page.

Now this is an intelligent post, thank you.

[pwr hungry]

Let me break it down for you all:

Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted.

Gasoline has an amount of energy that is released when it is burned.

This amount is a constant, it does NOT change.

That energy MUST be fully present on both sides of the equation.

Work in MUST equal work out.

The turbo's efficiency means nothing when speaking about energy.

Turbo efficiency deals with airflow capabilities.

So, let's go over this. If i put 1 gallon of gasoline through a combustion engine, i MUST hget one gallon of energy out. The more efficient the motor, the more energy gets converted to work. All remaining energy is left in the form of heat.

So....if a turbo SHOULD be making x amount of power(converting more energy to work), but is making a good bit less power, then guess where all that unused energy is going? HEAT!!!! And since the only place it can go is through the exhaust, in the coolant, oil and metals in the engine., i woul say it is EMPIRICAL evidence that Tony's EGT's were unfavorably high for that/those runs.

Can we all please get along now, and if not, start banning the people that drag this site down?

Please and thank you.

[TerpEvo]

Originally Posted by pwr hungry

Let me break it down for you all:

Please and thank you.

Needs more Q, W, E, Deltas and some entropy inequalities.

Oh and you might want to rethink that whole thing with the this consideration;

You are considering fuel to be the limiting agent. What about available oxygen(air)? Remember you aren't actually burning gasoline, you're burning oxygen. Gasoline just makes that easier(possible). Just because we have a limited source of gasoline on board relative to the source of oxygen doesn't automatically mean it is the gasoline that is the limiting factor.

This is where I admit I have no idea which one is which. I just like mashing the right most pedal.

[pwr hungry]

Originally Posted by TerpEvo

Needs more Q, W, E, Deltas and some entropy inequalities.

Oh and you might want to rethink that whole thing with the this consideration;

You are considering fuel to be the limiting agent. What about available oxygen(air)? Remember you aren't actually burning gasoline, you're burning oxygen. Gasoline just makes that easier(possible). Just because we have a limited source of gasoline on board relative to the source of oxygen doesn't automatically mean it is the gasoline that is the limiting factor.

This is where I admit I have no idea which one is which. I just like mashing the right most pedal.

I do agree with you, but given who that post was mainly aimed at, I'd be surprised if he can comprehend what I wrote, much less your more in depth version! haha

[litz4244]

This forum is all flap nobody will run. Just keep going off dyno numbers and bench racing.

[NY135ivishnu]

Shiv is stating info on the standard of running high boost low octane gas.

More boost + 91oct = hotter engine

If you run something like e85 you can run more boost because the gas burns at a lower temp.

My OPINION Vargas gave dyno info two weeks or so ago on he's twins. But what since I think he's experiencing things that shiv has overcome thus taking so long to dish out numbers and data logs.

[na foo]

Originally Posted by NY135ivishnu

Shiv is stating info on the standard of running high boost low octane gas.

More boost + 91oct = hotter engine

If you run something like e85 you can run more boost because the gas burns at a lower temp.

My OPINION Vargas gave dyno info two weeks or so ago on he's twins. But what since I think he's experiencing things that shiv has overcome thus taking so long to dish out numbers and data logs.

Actually, they're waiting for the tuners to fly in and giving the car owner an opportunity to enjoy his car since it's been down for the past few months.

Take your offensive and knowledge lacking thoughts elsewhere.

[jlcf22]

cant we all just get along..its Easter Sunday...dammit lol

[shaginwagon13]

Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue

It really is a crying shame that this thread degenerated the way it did. I honestly feel terrible for Shiv. He has been tuning professionally for 20 years and has dedicated the last 6 years of his career to the N54 platform. Here he is trying to educate someone whose biased ignorance is quite frankly reprehensible and the swarm of bees from the other forum descend on him. Give the guy a break. You guys are polluting e90post with all your hate.

Here is my rant:

Do you notice how Vargas or RB haven't poked their heads in this thread? People are always on Shiv because he ALWAYS feels the need to pop in to rip his competitors apart, and try and force-feed his stuff on everyone. I don't think anyone has ever argued that he is not very good at what he does.... but people get pissed off because according to Shiv his tunes and mods are the only ones that are perfect in every single way and they are well suited for everyone (mothers and children included), and his competitors all run on race gas yet claim they are on 91, and Vargas dyno'd in 5'th gear and not 4'th....it goes on and on. Shiv should be focused on improving his business/tunes and mods, not trying to degrade his competitors in every thread.

Shiv also claims his single turbo upgrade is a daily driver.... yet he has drag radials, no front seat, and a lightweight flywheel among every other possible upgrade in the engine bay. Gimme a break. I am sorry but his kit is NOT for everyone and there is nothing wrong with that. His single turbo kit IS STILL BAD AS HELL. He was the first guy to really give amazing HP figures. Saying that however some people don't want to drop 10k on a turbo upgrade. So you have Rob Beck who has some pretty nicely tried and tested turbo upgrade options for people who want a little more power but not the whole car redone like stage 3 Vargas or the Shiv single. Same goes for Vargas, some people don't want to spend that money or do those mods to the car. Shiv, Tony and Beck are all accomplished and have accomplished tunes and mods.... and all three have bad-ass HP numbers. The difference is Vargas and Beck at least have the respect for each other as competitors not to chime in EVERY SINGLE TIME a member posts a thread and continually bash each other. The same goes for COBB and JB4. They don't even bother responding to Shiv because there is just no winning with him. He is always right, and what he says should be considered Bible. It took Shiv 6 posts to come into this thread and start a war (his early posts have since been deleted).

Again, Shiv is accomplished and I am sure in person a great guy. Some people browse this forum because they want to hear about the different upgrade options, they want to see figures from different competitors, they want to get a taste of different mods/tunes and kits at different price points. Every thread that is titled 'Vargas 3 Vs. Vishnu Single' will always turn into a war because Shiv won't let the thread progress into an informative thread that can benefit everyone.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by shaginwagon13

Here is my rant:

Do you notice how Vargas or RB haven't poked their heads in this thread? People are always on Shiv because he ALWAYS feels the need to pop in to rip his competitors apart, and try and force-feed his stuff on everyone. I don't think anyone has ever argued that he is not very good at what he does.... but people get pissed off because according to Shiv his tunes and mods are the only ones that are perfect in every single way and they are well suited for everyone (mothers and children included), and his competitors all run on race gas yet claim they are on 91, and Vargas dyno'd in 5'th gear and not 4'th....it goes on and on. Shiv should be focused on improving his business/tunes and mods, not trying to degrade his competitors in every thread.

Shiv also claims his single turbo upgrade is a daily driver.... yet he has drag radials, no front seat, and a lightweight flywheel among every other possible upgrade in the engine bay. Gimme a break. I am sorry but his kit is NOT for everyone and there is nothing wrong with that. His single turbo kit IS STILL BAD AS HELL. He was the first guy to really give amazing HP figures. Saying that however some people don't want to drop 10k on a turbo upgrade. So you have Rob Beck who has some pretty nicely tried and tested turbo upgrade options for people who want a little more power but not the whole car redone like stage 3 Vargas or the Shiv single. Same goes for Vargas, some people don't want to spend that money or do those mods to the car. Shiv, Tony and Beck are all accomplished and have accomplished tunes and mods.... and all three have bad-ass HP numbers. The difference is Vargas and Beck at least have the respect for each other as competitors not to chime in EVERY SINGLE TIME a member posts a thread and continually bash each other. The same goes for COBB and JB4. They don't even bother responding to Shiv because there is just no winning with him. He is always right, and what he says should be considered Bible. It took Shiv 6 posts to come into this thread and start a war (his early posts have since been deleted).

Again, Shiv is accomplished and I am sure in person a great guy. Some people browse this forum because they want to hear about the different upgrade options, they want to see figures from different competitors, they want to get a taste of different mods/tunes and kits at different price points. Every thread that is titled 'Vargas 3 Vs. Vishnu Single' will always turn into a war because Shiv won't let the thread progress into an informative thread that can benefit everyone.

Rip my competitors apart? Force-fed my stuff on people? Where exactly am I doing this? Quotes? Links? Screenshots?

If you cannot distinguish attacks from factual and informative statements, perhaps a technical forum isn't for you.

Lastly, you stated that my early posts in this thread have been deleted? Who is telling you this? Nothing of mine has been deleted.

Shiv

[shaginwagon13]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Rip my competitors apart? Force-fed my stuff on people? Where exactly am I doing this? Quotes? Links? Screenshots?

If you cannot distinguish attacks from factual and informative statements, perhaps a technical forum isn't for you.

Shiv

Don't think that because Vargas and Beck choose to engage you from time to time I am going to.

But to prove my point I did try to go back to Page 1 of this thread for some Shiv quotes.... its too bad your beginning posts were all deleted they would have proved my point.

EDIT: Wait you actually don't believe you rip your competitors? Is that a joke? COBB-JB4-Beck-Vargas all seem to get along just fine. Yes they each want to be the best, but you take it to the next level with your tactics. I wonder why your the odd one out of the group.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue

Now this is an intelligent post, thank you.

Was that intelligent post based on Shiv having operational EGT sensors during his ST testing?

[Ænema]

There's a lot of (semi-sound)theory and assumptions being tossed around.

Shiv, do you you have any EGT sensor data you provide on what the ST kits see? I am not asking for engine theory, i'm talking actual sensor data.

My understanding of the VTT kit is that the next step in the process is EGT data gathering and reporting(hopefully full disclosure... but we'll see.)

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by shaginwagon13

Don't think that because Vargas and Beck choose to engage you from time to time I am going to.

But to prove my point I did try to go back to Page 1 of this thread for some Shiv quotes.... its too bad your beginning posts were all deleted they would have proved my point.

EDIT: Wait you actually don't believe you rip your competitors? Is that a joke? COBB-JB4-Beck-Vargas all seem to get along just fine. Yes they each want to be the best, but you take it to the next level with your tactics. I wonder why your the odd one out of the group.

I'm not sure where Rob Beck and I disagree. We tend to be fine with each other's comments/statements. The only thing I have publicly disagreed with Vargas on is some misleading comments he made with regard to turbo spool up. Again, if you have ANY evidence of anything different, please let us know.

Same goes for your claim that my "beginning posts were all deleted." They were not. Which leads me to believe that you may be a liar. You accuse me of tactics, yet you are one of the few people that are so hell bent in deceiving others. Surely someone has a screen shot proving the existence of my attacking posts. Maybe they are cached somewhere? If you cannot provide any of this, perhaps you are excuse yourself from this discussion and enjoy your Easter Sunday.

[VR46]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I'd say they also broke the record for high EGT. And if that car was run hard for any extended period of time, it would also likely break the record for shortest distanced traveled before turbo/engine failure. Unless I'm mistaken, the tuner also broke the record for how many turbos his personal car has gone through. Think about it.

Shiv

Actually the car was on the dyno from 9:00am till 1:20pm, We did over 20 pulls.
Ive been driving the car all over the bay area since getting it back and it has been running flawlessly. (Took it to Napa Friday, Saturday to Walnut Creek and ran it hard a bunch of times going up and down hwy 24, Today i'm going over to Half Moon Bay)
And still driving with no meth and on our Cali 91 gas.

I just want to say that when Tony asked me about doing this project I wanted to use Shiv as our tuner and Tony even reached out to him and got his cell phone number.
Me and Tony have used Shiv back in the day when I had a turbo Integra and Tony a turbo Passat.
I meet Shiv again recently at his house when he helped me with a missing issue. (Remember Shiv it was the day you brought back your Ferret and we went by your moms house in my car)

I mean I just bought and updated my Procede to a Rev 3 with two step and NLS just before handing my car to Tony.

When Tony told me he was tuning my car with a Cobb I was like "Oh" "OK"
I would have been happy with anyone tuning the car (I just liked Shiv cause he was local to me and I've had a past with him)

But the nice thing about this kit is it can be tuned by whoever you want.
Its just getting that tuner to help you tune it.

My point of this message is daily driving this car has been fine, Is it perfect probably not, But I am turning the car over to Tony Tuesday and the rest should be dialed in soon when the Cobb boys fly in.

I'm hoping to come spectate at the airport event next week (But I think I read all spectator pass were sold)

Happy Easter everyone.

[shaginwagon13]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I'm not sure where Rob Beck and I disagree. We tend to be fine with each other's comments/statements. The only thing I have publicly disagreed with Vargas on is some misleading comments he made with regard to turbo spool up. Again, if you have ANY evidence of anything different, please let us know.

Same goes for your claim that my "beginning posts were all deleted." They were not. Which leads me to believe that you may be a liar. You accuse me of tactics, yet you are one of the few people that are so hell bent in deceiving others. Surely someone has a screen shot proving the existence of my attacking posts. Maybe they are cached somewhere? If you cannot provide any of this, perhaps you are excuse yourself from this discussion and enjoy your Easter Sunday.

Well since your so innocent to anything I have been saying... why don't we take a poll to see who agrees with me and who agrees with you.

I'm not going to argue with you, people here know what you do and how you do it. I'm not going to pour back over all the previous threads were you and Cobb, You and Terry, You and Tony, You and Rob got into arguments. You seem to have lots of time on your hands, you should do some investigating on your own posts. It won't take you long.

[litz4244]

Originally Posted by shaginwagon13

Well since your so innocent to anything I have been saying... why don't we take a poll to see who agrees with me and who agrees with you.

I'm not going to argue with you, people here know what you do and how you do it. I'm not going to pour back over all the previous threads were you and Cobb, You and Terry, You and Tony, You and Rob got into arguments. You seem to have lots of time on your hands, you should do some investigating on your own posts. It won't take you long.

I deff agree with u if he doesn't post in that persons thread he makes a seperate thread that in a round about way bashes them.

[uniter]

Originally Posted by Ænema

There's a lot of (semi-sound)theory and assumptions being tossed around.

Shiv, do you you have any EGT sensor data you provide on what the ST kits see? I am not asking for engine theory, i'm talking actual sensor data.

My understanding of the VTT kit is that the next step in the process is EGT data gathering and reporting(hopefully full disclosure... but we'll see.)

I'd like to see the EGT data you collected during tuning as well. This will be important once VTT and other tuners release their data. Single, Stock twin and RB.