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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Shiv, meth output, not full map, just a single 5v output.



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      01-10-2008, 07:14 PM   #1
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Shiv, meth output, not full map, just a single 5v output.

The affordable boost triggered system just are not optimal for this car, people will likely end up spraying more than optimal at low rpms or less at high rpms. Most of these systems use a 0-5v input though and are adjustable.

I know its possible to use one of the programmable haltech outputs to make a 0-5v varied signal. All I'm asking for is one of the outputs configured to vary 0-5v in line with load/fueling so we can "properly" run a WIS. No tuning, just the single output for cooling/octane and let the ECU do the tuning.

Again not a full map (though eventually one would be nice), just one output, It should be a very simple addition and add further versatility to the procede as the leading tune.
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      01-10-2008, 07:39 PM   #2
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you can purchase the coolingmist or devilsown meth injection systems that have a progressive type controller for a good price.

You setup your base start pressure, and set max end boost pressure. Depending on how you set up your settings, you change the slope of duty cycle for the pump.
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      01-10-2008, 07:45 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malekreza11 View Post
you can purchase the coolingmist or devilsown meth injection systems that have a progressive type controller for a good price.

You setup your base start pressure, and set max end boost pressure. Depending on how you set up your settings, you change the slope of duty cycle for the pump.
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Originally Posted by O-cha View Post
The affordable boost triggered system just are not optimal for this car, people will likely end up spraying more than optimal at low rpms or less at high rpms.

Even with the coolingmist system which lets you use two inputs, one for trigger and one for gain, is not going to work optimally with our car without a 0-5v signal that is inline with engine load and fueling.
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      01-10-2008, 07:53 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-cha View Post
Even with the coolingmist system which lets you use two inputs, one for trigger and one for gain, is not going to work optimally with our car without a 0-5v signal that is inline with engine load and fueling.
the cooling-mist system has a voltage ranged input for MAP.

95% of times through my tuning experiences, the cooling-mist system is a well adequate system for auxiliary injection. If its not, standalone is the next option or a piggyback that can control the pumps duty cycle. Most piggyback's cannot handle the current draw of the pump.
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      01-10-2008, 08:01 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malekreza11 View Post
the cooling-mist system has a voltage ranged input for MAP.

95% of times through my tuning experiences, the cooling-mist system is a well adequate system for auxiliary injection. If its not, standalone is the next option or a piggyback that can control the pumps duty cycle. Most piggyback's cannot handle the current draw of the pump.
Do you not have a 335 yet? You seem intelligent so I'm going to assume not and you don't quite know the details of the 335 yet.

Injection needs to follow in line with fuel/air consumption - hp. All the systems, including coolingmist, aquamist and snowperformance run off either MAP/MAF/ or 0-5v, which are pretty much the same anyway.

You hook one of these up to the 335 it will be impossible to spray in the proper amount because the engine has peak boost early and stays constant or rolls off. So again you will either spray more than optimal at low RPMs or less than optimal at high RPMs because you will pretty much be spraying the same amount the entire time. That's not what you want. You want it to roughly follow the HP curve.


But since all these systems use a 0-5v signal with their controller, if shiv could simply output a 0-5v in this manner, it could be hooked up to the controller (not the pump so no current draw) and we could spray as optimally as possible without a custom map.
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      01-10-2008, 08:23 PM   #6
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your posts are actually very impressive when you are not being an ass.

maybe Shiv can chime in on the possibility of activating that output.
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      01-10-2008, 08:37 PM   #7
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In a speed density application like ours and when progressive control is desired, the Aquamist's and others ability to use an injector DC or RPM signal is just about required. You need to know overall flow or load and a MAP does not provide that.

On a side note, I have had great luck with simple on/off systems. Perhaps not as great as I could have had. But certainly worth what I was looking for. Below are some examples of my B5 S4 with a simple system. The first is my graphs and the second link is a similar car but without H2O injection. In particular, look at the IAT's:

http://www.flwse.com/images/steve/Au...raph_steve.htm

http://www.flwse.com/images/steve/Au...graph_doug.htm
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      01-10-2008, 10:46 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scalbert View Post
In a speed density application like ours and when progressive control is desired, the Aquamist's and others ability to use an injector DC or RPM signal is just about required. You need to know overall flow or load and a MAP does not provide that.
Yea aqaumist has a system that could possibly work, emphasis on possibly, but its $1,000+ and would require a lot more trouble to install.

But the thing is with some really quick work by shiv we should be able to use system that cost from 300-500 dollars depending on what manufacturer you go with by utilizing one of the haltechs outputs in 0-5v.

Again, not talking about tuning, that takes actual work, just a quick activation and parameter input so that the voltage scales with fueling/load.


Also a simple on/off system works fine, but it could be so much better. I wouldn't bet against 30-40hp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scalbert View Post
The first is my graphs and the second link is a similar car but without H2O injection. In particular, look at the IAT's:

http://www.flwse.com/images/steve/Au...raph_steve.htm

http://www.flwse.com/images/steve/Au...graph_doug.htm
I'm sure I've asked you this before but what do you use to log that, compatible with the 335 (guessing no or I would have remembered)?

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Originally Posted by 335iheLLraiseR View Post
your posts are actually very impressive when you are not being an ass.
Yea I proxy posted it all through my proxy poster. (I just want something so I'm being nice, great how that works huh?)
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      01-10-2008, 11:09 PM   #9
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O-cha, my current meth kit uses boost senssing progressive controller. The more boost I built the more meth I get based on the progressive controller boost input, obviously the pump also pumps more flow accordingly.

My system is called SMC. You can see it on my website bellow: www.evoixgrl.blogspot.com
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      01-10-2008, 11:13 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evo8MRto335I View Post
O-cha, my current meth kit uses boost senssing progressive controller. The more boost I built the more meth I get based on the progressive controller boost input, obviously the pump also pumps more flow accordingly.

My system is called SMC. You can see it on my website bellow: www.evoixgrl.blogspot.com



I'm going to cry , spraying that way is NOT optimal. you will spray LESS at high RPMs then low RPMs which is the OPPOSITE of optimal. It will work, but it will work better with a proper signal. Which shiv can provide, if he wanted. Which he won't since everyone seems fine with doing it wrong .





Wait, you're not a girl are you? What's up with that link
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      01-10-2008, 11:29 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-cha View Post


I'm going to cry , spraying that way is NOT optimal. you will spray LESS at high RPMs then low RPMs which is the OPPOSITE of optimal. It will work, but it will work better with a proper signal. Which shiv can provide, if he wanted. Which he won't since everyone seems fine with doing it wrong .





Wait, you're not a girl are you? What's up with that link
Not at all. I am spraying more only depending on boost. My progressive controller can be adjusted via 2 dials (oned dial controls the starting/spraying point) the other dial controls the percentage of flow based on boost.http://photos1.<br /> <br /> blogg...9/IMG_8429.jpg



Basically the more boost I build the more meth I spray. Keep in mind I don't have this system on the BMW though. Keep in mind that the rpm really have not much to do with this whole thing.
I custom tune my cars anyway so I can see the effect of the AFR before and during the meth spray. If I were to have a meth kit on my BMW I will definately get something boost activated.

Let me ask you something. Since you think that the rpm are important for a methanol kit, would you like your system to spray when downshifting approaching a red traffic light? or how about when descending a mountain with lower gears?
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      01-10-2008, 11:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evo8MRto335I View Post
Basically the more boost I build the more meth I spray. Keep in mind I don't have this system on the BMW though.
And if it was on the 335, it would be wrong, that's the point. But it would be SOOO0000oooooo easy to do right.



I'll even make a trunk mount DIY if I can get a signal to run it properly.
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      01-11-2008, 12:05 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-cha View Post
And if it was on the 335, it would be wrong, that's the point. But it would be SOOO0000oooooo easy to do right.



I'll even make a trunk mount DIY if I can get a signal to run it properly.
Look O-cha, I honestly think you are a smart guy. If I ever do a meth kit it will definately be a boost input kit. It is the most simple and less messy way to do it. You will spray on demand(under engine loads) meaning under boost.

Technically you can rev a car from iddle to redline and never build boost or almost no boost. You can also technically build max boost with partiall engine loads.

If you have a boost input then you know your car will spray whenever you want it to spray base on your car configuration.

A Evo 9 boost 20psi from factory but a 3000 GT VR4 boost about 10psi. Would you want a meth kit to spray at 14psi on the 3000 vr4? no because your max boost is 10psi. Well, you can set the dial on the meth controller to start spraying at 5psi(an example) and put the max flow at around 8psi all the way to 10psi.

That was just a generic example with real cars. I think the boost input meth kits are the simplest kits specially when you have a variable controller.

If I want to transfer my meth kit to any of my currect turbo cars I wouldn't have any issues. I will always take the engine's boost input from any boost/vacuum hose and just adjust the dials(the start point and max point) on the controller, it is very simple and very reliable and off course" always variable to your desire..

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger...9/IMG_8429.jpg

Whatever you do I will be eager to see your results and good luck.



my .2c
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      01-11-2008, 12:31 AM   #14
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Wow, thats wonderful.


Now apply that to the 335 . What do you get? you would have to tell it to start spraying max spray at 10ish PSI since thats about what you have from 4-7k.

Then what? You have to dial down your max so you don't choke out the engine at 3k where your boosting 14PSI. You effectively spray the same amount at high RPMs, you would rather do this? Are you joking?

I'm sorry but that's just useless in comparison to what it could be.



Why are you against running a kit properly, you DO know the proper way to run meth right? Seriously I want you to answer me that, why in gods name would you be against getting a variable fuel/load based 5v signal from the procede?

That's ridiculous to run it purely boost based on this engine if you have the option to do it RIGHT. Boost based IS right on SOME engines NOT this one.


I am only seeking this option to do a system the proper way and, this is a shocker, put more power down. Why would you be against that? It would be EASIER to install then a Boost based system.




Bout ready to go into douchy arrogance mode.
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      01-11-2008, 01:01 AM   #15
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Yes, I was aware of the 0-5v inputs as well, I just haven't install a system using that method. There are tons of meth kits out there that are even more simpler that what we talked/covered, some of them just have a toggle swith for on and off and they spray the same amount, others have a boost switch and they do the same, spray at a determined boost level.

I know that this is far from the case but I was just giving you an example so that you can see that what I run is far more sophisticated when compared to other kits in the market.

I don't want to turn this into an argument. I never had any issues with my system and I typically run 3 or 4 gas tanks with one gallon of meth so that tells you right there how eficient is. My AFR runs low 11's at red line, the only thing that I don't have is a fail safe but I am working on that.

I don't really know what you are truing to say about being eficient, I consider my kit plenty of eficient by all means(except the faild safe which I don't have one).

After a retune I picked and extra 21whp/ 64lb-tq to all 4 wheel on a Mustang Dyno on my Eclipse on my previous midsize turbo (16G) set up. If you ask me that is a whole lot of extra torque, it would be equivalent to close to 100lb/tq on a dynojet on a 2 wheel drive car. My kit allowed me to eficiently run 7 more lbs of boost(from 17psi to 24psi)

Again, I don't understand why you wouldn't consider my system eficient, it makes tons of torque, it makes my EGT go down, it significantly allows me to change my AFR for much more power, it is easily adjustable and the meth compsumtion is minimal ands last but not least, it is easy as hell to install. What else can you ask for?


You wrote me this:
Now apply that to the 335 . What do you get? you would have to tell it to start spraying max spray at 10ish PSI since thats about what you have from 4-7k.

Then what? You have to dial down your max so you don't choke out the engine at 3k where your boosting 14PSI. You effectively spray the same amount at high RPMs, you would rather do this? Are you joking?



^^ You are correct on your first sentence. You are not correct on the second sentence. You don't have to touch the dials ever. The controller receives the boost signal and "transfer"/feedback that signal back to the flow pump in the way of electrical signal. The more boost the faster the pumps works and the more flow it puts, the lesser boost then the lesser the pump works which means lesser flow. I never choked the car, nor that will ever happen, that is an exageration.

This means that if the car (BMW 335i) wants to boost 15psi at 3k, then lower the psi to 10psi at 5k then go up in boost again to 16psi guess what? the controller will receive a boost signal which at the same time will send a electrical signal to the pump which at the same time will increase the flow.

Why are you still thinking about the 0-5v input? Don't you believe there are kits that will automatically adjust the flow on demand? The dials on the controller you adjust once and that is it, the controller does its magic.

Here is your book back

Peace
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      01-11-2008, 01:17 AM   #16
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Please read the thread, I already explained why it's not right (Didn't say anythign about effeciency), since you don't already know this .

Again, you want the spray to increase ROUGHLY with horsepower, with a volume somewhere around 15% of fuel. A purely on/off type kit will give you gains, but more can be had through proper configuration.

It's a very simple thing to set up, and more gains could be had over a simple boost based system, that is EFFECTIVELY only an on/off system. Even more could be had from a custom map, but that would take a considerable amount of work for shiv. Where as what I'm asking for is relatively very simple to implement.

Aren't you curious why you picked up so much more torque then HP? My guess without seeing any of your dynos or your exact setup is that you were running the right amount down low, but as your went up the RPM range you started spraying less and less of the optimal amount which lost you HP.

Unless your boost curve is roughly in line with your hp curve a simple boost only based system is jut not capable of delivering the optimum spray. As such you will lose out on potential HP.
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      01-11-2008, 01:20 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evo8MRto335I View Post

You wrote me this:
Now apply that to the 335 . What do you get? you would have to tell it to start spraying max spray at 10ish PSI since thats about what you have from 4-7k.

Then what? You have to dial down your max so you don't choke out the engine at 3k where your boosting 14PSI. You effectively spray the same amount at high RPMs, you would rather do this? Are you joking?



^^ You are correct on your first sentence. You are not correct on the second sentence. You don't have to touch the dials ever. The controller receives the boost signal and "transfer"/feedback that signal back to the flow pump in the way of electrical signal. The more boost the faster the pumps works and the more flow it puts, the lesser boost then the lesser the pump works which means lesser flow. I never choked the car, nor that will ever happen, that is an exageration.

This means that if the car (BMW 335i) wants to boost 15psi at 3k, then lower the psi to 10psi at 5k then go up in boost again to 16psi guess what? the controller will receive a boost signal which at the same time will send a electrical signal to the pump which at the same time will increase the flow.

Why are you still thinking about the 0-5v input? Don't you believe there are kits that will automatically adjust the flow on demand? The dials on the controller you adjust once and that is it, the controller does its magic.

Here is your book back

Peace
Can you not read? I'm going to try full capslock in an effort to emphasize this as much as possible and prevent this from continuing ok. On second thought i will use bold as well.

IN THE 335 THE BOOST CURVE DOES NOT FOLLOW IN LINE WITH FUEL CONSUMPTION, WIS SYSTEMS NEED TO BE SPRAYED ROUGHLY IN LINE WITH FUEL AND AIR CONSUMPTION (HP) IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO SPRAY THE OPTIMUM AMOUNT WITH A BOOST ONLY BASED SYSTEM.





This threads gotten dirty so I'm making another one with a poll, evo, please stay out of it until you understand what the optimal WIS spray is.
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      01-11-2008, 02:06 AM   #18
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I see the point and don't understand why it's so hard to get it. Of course, spraying should be based on boost but it should respect rpm's as well. A controller supporting this or the 0-5 V output from a piggyback is the way to go, IMO. I also want to spray more on 13 psi @ 5500 rpm than on 13 psi @ 3000 rpm ...

It's clear that without boost, regardless which rpm's, nothing should be sprayed.
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      01-11-2008, 02:15 AM   #19
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I see the point and don't understand why it's so hard to get it.
A lot of cars are MAF based in which it's easier to spray the right amount.
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      01-11-2008, 02:34 AM   #20
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You need to spray in line with injector duty cycle. I have an Aquamist kit that does that on my E30. However, on the 335i, it works off the MAP. Seems to work fine as it still sprays a lot at high rpm. Aquamist are in the process of changing their current kit so that you can use the injector duty cycle like their older kits.
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      01-11-2008, 07:42 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-cha View Post
I'm sure I've asked you this before but what do you use to log that, compatible with the 335 (guessing no or I would have remembered)?
Nope, not compatible with the N54. It is APR's ECUx which was fantastic at high speed logging of data in the ECU. From an ECUx log you could import it into an Excel workbook, run a macro and get the charts per the links. The Excel marco was a public creation and not APR's. Nonetheless, it was a valuable tool that I still own and cannot sell.

However, there may be an N54 specific PC based scan tool soon which may provide high speed logging capability. Not to mention access to reset adaptation channels, read and control various tests and even read and clear codes completely (not like the OBDII scanners that just clear it from view but they still reside in the DME).

AutoEnginuity stated they should have it ready by late spring or summer (I suspect the later) for about $500 which will include the special interface.
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      01-11-2008, 07:46 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-cha View Post
A lot of cars are MAF based in which it's easier to spray the right amount.
What I see this coming down to is the intended use of meth/water. If you desire, as was my intention on the B5 S4, to provide repeatability in power but not extract all of the potential, an on/off system works fine.

If you want to get all you can out of it, a progressive is just about required. And yes, if a 0 - 5VDC signal were provided by the PROcede based on perceived load, a progressive controller could be used well and gains would be realized.
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