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      06-01-2014, 10:21 PM   #1
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Long Cranks but HPFP is New?

I've noticed the car is really taking its time starting recently. I've included a log of a cold start below, I don't see anything odd but frankly i've never logged a cold start so i'm not sure what "good" looks like.

The HPFP has about 3K miles on it so it's close to brand new, the LPFP has about 4K miles on it so it's new as well.

In terms of symptoms it closely mimics a failing HPFP. Only happens on cold starts, takes a full second or two to turn over, cranks right away, once it starts it stumbles for a half second then all is well. The car has never failed to start, has never thrown a code over the matter, and it's not ambient temperature dependent.

E50 no meth right now. Log is below..thoughts?

http://www.datazap.me/u/135pats/long...-20&mark=27-57
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      06-01-2014, 10:31 PM   #2
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Just Bc it's new, doesn't mean it's not bad
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      06-01-2014, 10:36 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmertech113 View Post
Just Bc it's new, doesn't mean it's not bad
Fair point but under load it behaves as I would expect from a healthy stock HPFP with the inlet filter still in place. It's never thrown a rail or HPFP PSI code ever under WOT.

So if it is handling that, I'm confused as to why it would be struggling on a cold start?

But for sure, the symptoms mirror a failing HPFP on the hoof.
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      06-01-2014, 10:41 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 135Pats View Post
Fair point but under load it behaves as I would expect from a healthy stock HPFP with the inlet filter still in place. It's never thrown a rail or HPFP PSI code ever under WOT.

So if it is handling that, I'm confused as to why it would be struggling on a cold start?

But for sure, the symptoms mirror a failing HPFP on the hoof.
I thought high ethanol percentages generally result in a longer cold start. Once the motor is warm there are no issues. Maybe a few folks running hi E%s can chime in.
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      06-01-2014, 10:44 PM   #5
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I thought high ethanol percentages generally result in a longer cold start. Once the motor is warm there are no issues. Maybe a few folks running hi E%s can chime in.
Ya that is certainly true. I honestly can't remember the last time I ran a tank of pump gas maybe I should try the next fillup.

When the motor is warm, the car starts right away. HPFPs fail all the time but they usually throw codes when they're on the way out. I've never had a HPFP code ever in this car (knocks on wood).
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      06-01-2014, 11:00 PM   #6
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I'm not so sure. Here is a comparison for ya...your cold start and my cold start on 100% E85 (E80).

Yours



Mine



On cold starts my car fires right up like this virtually every time. On hot starts...then I'll get a long crank sometimes. I believe it may be the ethanol boiling in the lines but don't know for sure. But it only does it if I let it sit for a little while when hot and then start it up. If I turn it off and start it within a few minutes...no long crank. If I let it sit over night...no long crank...seems to support my theory but isn't an issue.

I wish I knew the difference for those that have long cranks. Something preventing the HPFP from getting to pressure quick enough I need to log a hot start and see if it shows a similar profile to yours.

For reference i made both those graphs 5 seconds long so that the comparison was correct.
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      06-01-2014, 11:02 PM   #7
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Watch for white mist out the pipes when it catches. Bad injector might be leaking.
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      06-01-2014, 11:11 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
Watch for white mist out the pipes when it catches. Bad injector might be leaking.
When I did plugs I did notice cyl 1 was a bit fouled from gas and I was generally running a bit rich. I may just replace both banks anyways as they've been on the car for some time.


steveaz outside of the long cranks it seems to do "well". Of course that's all relative, it nosedives like all HPFPs do. But it seems healthy under load. Do you think it's dying?

Thanks for the advice everyone
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      06-01-2014, 11:20 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ View Post
On cold starts my car fires right up like this virtually every time. On hot starts...then I'll get a long crank sometimes. I believe it may be the ethanol boiling in the lines but don't know for sure. But it only does it if I let it sit for a little while when hot and then start it up. If I turn it off and start it within a few minutes...no long crank. If I let it sit over night...no long crank...seems to support my theory but isn't an issue.

I wish I knew the difference for those that have long cranks. Something preventing the HPFP from getting to pressure quick enough I need to log a hot start and see if it shows a similar profile to yours.
What you're experiencing is a fault in BMWs fuel prime scheme. If let set for a extended amount of time the car will prime itself when the doors are unlocked or if you restart the car quickly after shutting it down it will still be holding prime. There is a window(a couple hours after shut off) where the fuel system loses prime but it does prime itself automatically. It happens on ethanol blends or 100% pump gas.
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      06-01-2014, 11:28 PM   #10
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I would check the injectors, I haven't had a problem with 100% e85 for 2 yrs. Started getting long cranks the other day, trims in bank one were a little weird. Changed all injectors and all is fine.
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      06-02-2014, 12:12 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen@PTF View Post
What you're experiencing is a fault in BMWs fuel prime scheme. If let set for a extended amount of time the car will prime itself when the doors are unlocked or if you restart the car quickly after shutting it down it will still be holding prime. There is a window(a couple hours after shut off) where the fuel system loses prime but it does prime itself automatically. It happens on ethanol blends or 100% pump gas.
Hey Allen,

I know what you're referring to but that's not the case here. As a habit I always have my Cobb on, and I see what the fuel pressures are. You are correct in that our fuel system doesn't always prime when the car has only been off for a short period of time. However, I always see those values before I start the car and if they aren't >60psi, I cycle the ignition with my foot off the brake to prime it. Contrary to what a lot of people think, the rail does NOT hold high pressures after turning off the car. If it does, you'll get code for excessive rail pressures after shutdown.

It's something else...I need to look in to it further but since it hasn't been a big deal...I haven't really bothered. I should find an answer though.

I do agree that it could be injectors for 135pats...heck maybe it is for me as well and they may be reacting differently to the heat and gas that is created from the ethanol boiling is creating an issue. I really need to log it.
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      06-02-2014, 03:22 AM   #12
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I have this exact same problem immediately after I replaced the latest HPFP many months ago. This is also definitely not a priming issue for the pumps are left to prime well long enough before I even attempt to start it. The funny thing was, the starts were great all the time even with the old failing HPFP ( the failure came from a 29DC code thrown on WOT all the time ) but never had a long crank issue.

I run full E85 all the time ( E60 to E70 ) but have also tried full pump gas but still had this problem only on the new pump. ON some cases it would also cause an intermittent die off after a succesful start. Have been puzzled with this for a few months now until recently when I suddenly found a relation to the level of the fuel in the tank. If the tank was filled full, I would be able to crank immediately at any time even if the car was left not running for a week. I begin to slowly take notice that when the level drops below half, the long crank problem comes again and continues to remain until the tank goes low where I have to refill again.

Just yesterday I filled up the tank all the way to full again, ( E85) and the crank is strong again. I will once again monitor the level in which the problem reoccurs which I suspect only happens at half tank.

Would the new HPFP fitment require a new factory software update altogether?

Am beginning to suspect some relation with the new HPFP
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      06-02-2014, 04:54 AM   #13
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The new HPFP would not require any software update. Not to say that if you had the new HPFP installed by the dealer that they didn't update your software.
I've swapped my HPFP's around numerous times (I have 3) for various testing and have a new one in there at this time because I needed to return it to stock for testing. I also have a couple variations of HPFPs. The symptoms on hot starts were exactly the same between the newest rev of HPFP, my modified old rev HPFP, and my stock old rev HPFP.

As far as the relationship having to do with there being more than a 1/2 tank of fuel. That'd be interesting, because if you have a half tank of fuel, the passenger side where the low pressure fuel pump is located, should be pretty full unless the venturi on the driver's side isn't working properly. A properly working bucket shouldn't drain the fuel back out of it while the car sits, and even if it did, it would only be to the level of the fuel in the tank.

As for priming the pump and letting it sit long enough, the prime isn't very long...if you need more priming, you have to cycle the power (without your foot on the pedal) and those prime cycles are pretty short, nothing like if the car has been sitting for a while as those will last a few seconds but happen when you unlock the doors, open the trunk....basically when you wake the car up.

What LPFP setup are you running?
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      06-02-2014, 07:06 AM   #14
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Sorry Andrew but I just had to
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      06-02-2014, 07:37 AM   #15
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It's an injector or injectors, I have a new HPFP and had the same symptoms. #2 cyl plug was black and smelled like gas, the injector was leaking and causing longer cranks when the fuel had to reach it again.
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      06-02-2014, 08:50 AM   #16
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Quote:
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The new HPFP would not require any software update. Not to say that if you had the new HPFP installed by the dealer that they didn't update your software.
I've swapped my HPFP's around numerous times (I have 3) for various testing and have a new one in there at this time because I needed to return it to stock for testing. I also have a couple variations of HPFPs. The symptoms on hot starts were exactly the same between the newest rev of HPFP, my modified old rev HPFP, and my stock old rev HPFP.

As far as the relationship having to do with there being more than a 1/2 tank of fuel. That'd be interesting, because if you have a half tank of fuel, the passenger side where the low pressure fuel pump is located, should be pretty full unless the venturi on the driver's side isn't working properly. A properly working bucket shouldn't drain the fuel back out of it while the car sits, and even if it did, it would only be to the level of the fuel in the tank.

As for priming the pump and letting it sit long enough, the prime isn't very long...if you need more priming, you have to cycle the power (without your foot on the pedal) and those prime cycles are pretty short, nothing like if the car has been sitting for a while as those will last a few seconds but happen when you unlock the doors, open the trunk....basically when you wake the car up.

What LPFP setup are you running?
The hpfp wasn't installed by a dealer here. I bought the pump off a bmw parts distributor as I was getting sick as hell with the 29DC fault on the old pump earlier. Nothing i replaced would fix it. LPFP upgrade, lpfp switch etc... Finally nailed it to the hpfp itself.

Interesting you mentioned the Venturi on the driver's side , is there one there as well? We never took that section out earlier when replacing the lpfp. Am running a made for GM E85 pump that flows 480l/hr .

The reason why I said hpfp was that I remembered clearly on the moment I collected the car the , car just immediately started weak compared to just before the change. This was also on a low fuel condition.
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      06-02-2014, 09:05 AM   #17
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Quote:
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It's an injector or injectors, I have a new HPFP and had the same symptoms. #2 cyl plug was black and smelled like gas, the injector was leaking and causing longer cranks when the fuel had to reach it again.
+1 strongly believe it's an injector, good luck!
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      06-02-2014, 11:05 AM   #18
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Sorry Andrew but I just had to
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+1 strongly believe it's an injector, good luck!
I'm leaning towards that. Just wish I had a better hunch before throwing another K at it. We'll see.
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      06-02-2014, 12:04 PM   #19
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It's an injector or injectors, I have a new HPFP and had the same symptoms. #2 cyl plug was black and smelled like gas, the injector was leaking and causing longer cranks when the fuel had to reach it again.
Well am now inclined to suspect so now for I am still running with the factory fitted injectors. Just wondering if recoding of the new injectors can be done outside of factory.
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      06-02-2014, 12:11 PM   #20
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Ya that is certainly true. I honestly can't remember the last time I ran a tank of pump gas maybe I should try the next fillup.

When the motor is warm, the car starts right away. HPFPs fail all the time but they usually throw codes when they're on the way out. I've never had a HPFP code ever in this car (knocks on wood).
I run 60% and never have long starts.
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      06-02-2014, 06:40 PM   #21
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i have the same problem . my car always starts like crap sometimes long crank other very stumbling start. seems to start fine when cold (first start of the day)
i thought also at one point and time it had to due with fuel level but that theory has since been debunked . no fuel related codes just went to the track friday and no codes .car runs great otherwise and logs seem good . i will say i dont have that problem if running on pump gas only love to find the solution people look at me like it a piece of shit or something
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      06-02-2014, 07:37 PM   #22
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I vote injector.
Had similar problem. Long crank, rough for 30-60 seconds.
No codes.

Eventually one morning all hell broke loose and it started running like a truck and threw multiple codes. Injector.
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