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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Dinan Software Warning...bad tuners.



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      01-13-2008, 03:28 PM   #23
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Dinan is just trying to scare people because if a turbo does blow, Dinan will be responsable as the piggy back can be removed and will be untraceable. Sucks for Dinan.
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      01-13-2008, 03:30 PM   #24
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Dinan is just trying to scare people because if a turbo does blow, Dinan will be responsable as the piggy back can be removed and will be untraceable. Sucks for Dinan.
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      01-13-2008, 06:29 PM   #25
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IMO, there's a reason Dinan is so conservative, they do offer a warranty. I'm not saying anyone else's products are unreliable, but if someone were to try hard enough, they could probably blow up their car. Top speed, uphill, in warm weather would probably cook a cylinder on your average piggybacked car, since Dinan does offer a warranty, they have to make the product as "idiot proof" as they can.

That, at least, has always been my take on it.
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      01-13-2008, 08:12 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Ask me how many engines and turbos that I've seen fail in the last 15 years of tuning instead. Sometimes statistics speak louder than desktop pontifications. I don't think Dinan has done any more research in the area of mechanical limits than many of us. It's no surprise that they are playing it conservative with their tunes. And it has little to do with the structural integrity of the hardware. Think about the typical Dinan customer.

shiv
No point in talking about the past or comparing apples and oranges and your means of statistics is based on I got nothing back so I’m golden which doesn’t fly. It sounds like you have done absolutely no research on the effects of added boost to this car other than monitoring thermal load and to what end is another question. The intent of over spooling high speed rotating equipment can have devastating effects that stay hidden like a cancer only to surface years later in repeatable failures. It is not hard to do testing on turbo like this. The costs are about 20,000 to 30,000. Not in your budget but probably was incorporated into Dinan budget. If you want to get into specific will dive in head first if you like.

The torsion rigidity makes a lot of scenes. It is not like the block is even close to failing but a deflection at a bearing support of 0.001” can cause catastrophic failures. Not hard to put strain gauges over the engine to find deflection or 3D scan the engine and do it by FEA. It is time and resources.

I don’t think you can say a company has done research or not. It is more likely that small vendor like Vishnu has not done any R&D than one that has ability to invest time and resources. A lot items Dinan points out are common sense for a mechanical engineers in this field and most likely mentioned at the very beginning of project scope meeting. If you actually did planning you might point these things out yourself.

You’re misleading everyone if you say that increasing HP with PROcede v2, as with your new upgrade, have been tested and are safe. As an engineer you are required to prove your assumption through testing, supporting facts, and calculations and you can not. Making the software work is only half the problem the other parts can’t be ignored.

Shiv, I have no doubts you are a very good engineer with a lot of diversity but you don’t have all the bases covered. It is just the facts of being a small company and you’re doing the best but it doesn’t mean using your product is without moderate risk. If it means anything i put the JB 100x below your efforts.

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Last edited by Orb; 01-13-2008 at 10:14 PM.
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      01-13-2008, 08:22 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orb View Post
No point in talking about the past or comparing apples and oranges and your means of statistics is based on I got nothing back so I’m golden which doesn’t fly. It sounds like you have done absolutely no research on the effects of added boost to this car other than monitoring thermal load and to what end is another question. The effects over spooling high speed rotating equipment can have devastating effects that stay hidden like a cancer only to surface years later in repeatable failures. It is not hard to test do testing on turbo like this. The costs are about 20,000 to 30,000. Not in your budget but probably was incorporated into Diana budget. If you want to get into specific will dive in head first if you like.

The torsion rigidity makes a lot of scenes. It not like the block is even close to failing but a deflection at a bearing support of 0.001” can cause catastrophic failures. Not hard to put strain gauges over the engine to find deflection or 3D scan the engine and do it by FEA. It is time and resources.

I don’t think you can say a company has done research or not. It is more likely that small vendor like Vishnu has not done any R&D than one that has ability to invest time and resources. A lot stuff Dinan point out common sense for a mechanical engineers in this field and most likely pointed at the very beginning of project scope meeting. If you actually did planning you might point these things out yourself.

You’re misleading everyone if you say that increasing HP with PROcede v2, as with your new upgrade, have been tested and are safe. As an engineer you are required to prove your assumption through testing, supporting facts, and calculations and you can not. Making the software work is only half the problem the other parts can’t be ignored.

Shiv, I have no doubts you are a very good engineer with a lot of diversity but you don’t have all the bases covered. It is just the facts of being a small company and you’re doing the best but it doesn’t mean using your product is without moderate risk.

Orb
You seem to be very convinced that Dinan has done more R&D and testing than "small" tuning shops like us. What makes you think this? Do you think that their delay into the market was due to a rigorous in-house test schedule? Or was it because they didn't even get a car until recently?

And I'm the one deceiving people? I think you should look at what you are doing. It's one thing to be happy with a purchase (as you seem to be). It's other thing to justify your purchase to yourself and others with ad hoc reasoning and supposition. If you think the Dinan flash is the best solution out there, you need to try a little harder to convince some of us. Just because a well-written advertisement/white papers is good enough for you, it's not good enough for others who actually have first hand experience with more than one tuning option.

Regardless, it's okay for us to have different opinions. Because that is just what they are... opinions.

Shiv

PS. And yes, I agree it is a silly idea to put a TMAP voltage divider on top of a flash to raise boost. Again, an opinion. I'm sure there are others will argue otherwise.
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      01-13-2008, 08:53 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
You seem to be very convinced that Dinan has done more R&D and testing than "small" tuning shops like us. What makes you think this? Do you think that their delay into the market was due to a rigorous in-house test schedule? Or was it because they didn't even get a car until recently?

And I'm the one deceiving people? I think you should look at what you are doing. It's one thing to be happy with a purchase (as you seem to be). It's other thing to justify your purchase to yourself and others with ad hoc reasoning and supposition. If you think the Dinan flash is the best solution out there, you need to try a little harder to convince some of us. Just because a well-written advertisement/white papers is good enough for you, it's not good enough for others who actually have first hand experience with more than one tuning option.

Regardless, it's okay for us to have different opinions. Because that is just what they are... opinions.

Shiv

PS. And yes, I agree it is a silly idea to put a TMAP voltage divider on top of a flash to raise boost. Again, an opinion. I'm sure there are others will argue otherwise.
You have gone on a tangent and getting pissed off.

“Do you think that their delay into the market was due to a rigorous in-house test schedule?”

Of course not, it is complete marketing crap and at some point how much recourses you have. A lot of there other statements are marketing crap also which is blindly obvious. The water pump tuning is out right deception due to omission of all the facts.

I’m suggesting you don’t have deep pocket as some of the bigger tuning companies and nothing more. You have yet to prove that you done anything to validate your assumption good or bad. If you’re an engineer you have to do it this period....it is not an option.

I think you got me wrong. I would not hesitate kicking Dinan tune to the curb in hart beat if something better came along just like I did with the PROcede. I publicly backed that with action. I couldn’t care less what other buy at all and I never will…I simply can’t understand why other think I would care. It is important that people make up there own mind with solid facts when possible. Not easy to find that around here.

The field I work in makes me some what divorced to any product or design I do. I will not hesitate dumping a design I’ve worked on for weeks for a better solution…. I am somewhat very ruthless about this that it is a bit scary to people I work with as I made them start from scratch a few times.

So the rest of waht you said is all bla bla to me as doesn’t get to the points I stated.

Orb

Last edited by Orb; 01-13-2008 at 10:09 PM.
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      01-13-2008, 08:54 PM   #29
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Wouldn't it be nice to have the Dinan "braintrust" on this forum. To pick their brain the way everyone picks Shiv's. The fact is that people who buy Dinan's equipment largely don't do it after reading about it on a forum. They talk to an authorized dealer, or see some info at their dealership. They find $2000 between their cushions on their couch, and buy it. They've never looked under the hood once. They just want some power, and they want a warranty. Whether it's truly a better tune with better research doesn't matter. They don't have to install it. No wires. No uninstalling before going to their dealer. No worry about their warranty. At the end of their car ownership they have a more powerful car they can sell, and that value is retained. Have you wondered how you're gonna get squat for your Procede in 2-3 years. Look at the forums, you can't sell V2 Procede for more than $1100. You think you'll get more than that in 2 years? You certainly aren't gonna get someone to buy your car with it installed. Don't get me wrong, I hae a Procede V2. I have been under the hood. Just saying there are other reasons Dinan does well. Mainly their association with some BMW dealerships and warranty. If the Procede was in BMW dealerships and had warranty their wouldn't be any argument to what is the best overall tune. /rant
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      01-13-2008, 08:59 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orb View Post
Y
I think you got me wrong. I would not hesitate kicking Dinan tune to curb in hart beat if something better came along just like I did with the PROcede. I publicly backed that with action.
It's statements like this that confuse me. You stated that you never even installed the PROcede. Yet you claimed something better came along. I just don't quite understand how you can come to this conclusions without actually driving both set-ups. That's all.

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      01-13-2008, 09:05 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
It's statements like this that confuse me. You stated that you never even installed the PROcede. Yet you claimed something better came along. I just don't quite understand how you can come to this conclusions without actually driving both set-ups. That's all.

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      01-13-2008, 09:23 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
It's statements like this that confuse me. You stated that you never even installed the PROcede. Yet you claimed something better came along. I just don't quite understand how you can come to this conclusions without actually driving both set-ups. That's all.

shiv
At the time the PROcede v2 was the only acceptable solution although not acceptable to install. I wasn’t going to tolerate the constant upgrading or problems that were going on for months especially since you publicly stated in the summer that this was going the most tested and reliable product to date! The fact is that your product currently puts the user as an unwilling beta tester but you don’t agree so this is pointless and is why I got out. There are a lot other engineers in this forum who use your product that don’t like your direction and lack of refinement as well but in the end it is your company so you can do what ever you like.

BTW, I consider the SSTT and JB a complete joke. These are not engineered product and there nothing more than hack and to people who disagree it’s just my opinion of the facts which are basically a lot of omissions. There is no proof they have reversed all the relationship in the ECU and there affects. Getting on a dyno just will not tell the whole story in the long run. You pretty well destroyed there creditability anyways so no use pointing out further.

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Last edited by Orb; 01-13-2008 at 10:12 PM.
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      01-13-2008, 09:33 PM   #33
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how much is the middle exhaust and intercooler going to be? or just a rough estimate.. cuz im already down for the middle exhaust!!!! =D which headquaters u work at orb? The one in mountain view or the other one? ive been checking day in day out at the website waiting for the middle exhaust (downpipes) and intercooler since the day i installed my flash and exhaust!

how long will it take for the cold air intake?
The approximate cost is one right arm, and a section of your left leg, just below the knee.
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      01-13-2008, 10:12 PM   #34
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You have gone on a tangent and getting pissed off.

So the rest of waht you said is all bla bla to me as doesn’t get to the points I stated.

Orb
orb, what does one do in order to ensure a turbo won't go ary over time... think about what it would entail. I only have a basic understanding of a turbo's ability/longevity in terms of its design and size but in my experience if a turbo can hold a specific boost to redline using only an internal wastegate, it isn't being pushed very hard (this may be a completely unrelated misconception of two unassociated aspects of a turbo, my apologies if so). Is your proposal to take the turbo out of the car, set it in action and measure its variance from true at a given psi or to just run it till it dies...?

I just feel like you are making claims that are reflective of unrealistic expectations for any tuner. Shiv has tuned many cars. Why don't you ask what he thinks the turbo can support in terms of psi and for how long rather than taking shots and assuming things about him and his company?
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      01-13-2008, 10:22 PM   #35
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Where are they going to put bigger turbos? This has been gone over many times. There isn't room unless you want to redesign the entire intake and exhaust system, cast new exhaust manifolds, etc...

I love the car and all, but at some point it's time to say enough is enough. By adding all those mods you destroy what makes the 335i such a great car.
gt2860RS (dual ) will fit just retrofit on the fmic piping. and dp. .. 1 big Gt35R will also fit. but it will super tight. . you also need to retrofit fmic piping and dp.
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      01-13-2008, 10:41 PM   #36
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I have the PROcede, AA Xede, and Helix piggybacks on my car. Some wires couldn't fit where the manufacturer specified, so I just put them where I felt they should go. Can I also Dinan flash my car?
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      01-13-2008, 10:50 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by stillclaimndp View Post
orb, what does one do in order to ensure a turbo won't go ary over time... think about what it would entail. I only have a basic understanding of a turbo's ability/longevity in terms of its design and size but in my experience if a turbo can hold a specific boost to redline using only an internal wastegate, it isn't being pushed very hard (this may be a completely unrelated misconception of two unassociated aspects of a turbo, my apologies if so). Is your proposal to take the turbo out of the car, set it in action and measure its variance from true at a given psi or to just run it till it dies...?

I just feel like you are making claims that are reflective of unrealistic expectations for any tuner. Shiv has tuned many cars. Why don't you ask what he thinks the turbo can support in terms of psi and for how long rather than taking shots and assuming things about him and his company?
The only way to know the safe operating limits of the turbo is to take it apart and measure tolerance and analyze the design. Then test it under accelerated life conditions. This is what you would do to reverse engineer the operating limits other than just phoning the manufacture who might give this to you…seriously!

The weakest part of the design will be the bearing. Increase speed of the turbo (a function of pressure) can put damaging loads on the bearing. The result is you will shorten it life by a said amount which is unknown. It is unknown what the safe limit is. There are at least 5 other failure modes as well but this is the most likely but they need to be considered.

If you are serious about providing a safe tune then you need to do your engineering homework and it is that simple. This means making a plan and budget the scope of work.

I’m not taking shots…Shiv open that door himself. I actually don’t want shiv’s opinion on the turbo because it not going to mean a lot unless he has specific knowledge about this one device.

Orb
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      01-13-2008, 10:53 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by rideelement247 View Post
I have the PROcede, AA Xede, and Helix piggybacks on my car. Some wires couldn't fit where the manufacturer specified, so I just put them where I felt they should go. Can I also Dinan flash my car?
You first need to add a SSTT and a JB2HR, as well as the Dinan oil cooler before you can qualify for the flash and the dinan badge.
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      01-13-2008, 11:37 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Orb View Post
The only way to know the safe operating limits of the turbo is to take it apart and measure tolerance and analyze the design. Then test it under accelerated life conditions. This is what you would do to reverse engineer the operating limits other than just phoning the manufacture who might give this to you…seriously!

The weakest part of the design will be the bearing. Increase speed of the turbo (a function of pressure) can put damaging loads on the bearing. The result is you will shorten it life by a said amount which is unknown. It is unknown what the safe limit is. There are at least 5 other failure modes as well but this is the most likely but they need to be considered.

If you are serious about providing a safe tune then you need to do your engineering homework and it is that simple. This means making a plan and budget the scope of work.

I’m not taking shots…Shiv open that door himself. I actually don’t want shiv’s opinion on the turbo because it not going to mean a lot unless he has specific knowledge about this one device.

Orb
Ok. So in conclusion are you stating that Dinan's tune will in no way shorten the life of the turbos because they did this sort of testing? I think we can agree both tunes raise boost, both tunes probably shorten the life of the turbo to some degree... That said, historically, turbos haven't been the weak point of many cars since they became water cooled other than maybe the junker KO3's.
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      01-13-2008, 11:39 PM   #40
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This is just Dinan creating an exit door for their flash. As soon as something goes wrong, they are going to accuse you of adding a piggy. And then you have to prove that you did not. And then you realise that the hole point of the piggy is that its undetectable. And then you realise that you just got F'ed in the A...

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      01-14-2008, 12:03 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillclaimndp View Post
Ok. So in conclusion are you stating that Dinan's tune will in no way shorten the life of the turbos because they did this sort of testing? I think we can agree both tunes raise boost, both tunes probably shorten the life of the turbo to some degree... That said, historically, turbos haven't been the weak point of many cars since they became water cooled other than maybe the junker KO3's.
No, Dinan is the one who stated this not me. They stated openly they tested the RPM limitation of the turbos which is dictated by pressure. Any tune below this pressure would be seemed to be safe workings limit which about 13.5 PSI. I think your trivializing the complex nature of turbo. It is very complex in mechanical details you are taking for granted.

What this means to PROcede v2 is unclear but it may be shortening the turbos life. Is life expectancy 5% or 50% less. I wouldn’t know as its non linear.

The fact is as you push for bigger power number you need to be sure your whole system is suitable for the power increase or live with expected shorten life of some components which may not be a big deal form some.
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      01-14-2008, 12:13 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orb View Post
No, Dinan is the one who stated this not me. They stated openly they tested the RPM limitation of the turbos which is dictated by pressure. Any tune below this pressure would be seemed to be safe workings limit which about 13.5 PSI. I think your trivializing the complex nature of turbo. It is very complex in mechanical details you are taking for granted.

What this means to PROcede v2 is unclear but it may be shortening the turbos life. Is life expectancy 5% or 50% less. I wouldn’t know as its non linear.

The fact is as you push for bigger power number you need to be sure your whole system is suitable for the power increase or live with expected shorten life of some components which may not be a big deal form some.
Actually a turbo is really simple. a utilization of the hot, expanding exhaust gases spin the wheel on the exhaust side (heat, pressure, and volume are relative) which in turn rotates the compressor wheel on the intake side and that wheel compresses air which is used to force induction into the intake manifold. It's not as complicated as you propose at all, and if the turbo was good for 200k+ from the factory and now it's only 150k+... well I can live with that.
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      01-14-2008, 03:27 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillclaimndp View Post
Actually a turbo is really simple. a utilization of the hot, expanding exhaust gases spin the wheel on the exhaust side (heat, pressure, and volume are relative) which in turn rotates the compressor wheel on the intake side and that wheel compresses air which is used to force induction into the intake manifold. It's not as complicated as you propose at all, and if the turbo was good for 200k+ from the factory and now it's only 150k+... well I can live with that.
The point is, no one except perhaps Dinan has studied the turbos and the engine to say, with any degree of certainty, that reliability is not greatly compromised. If the turbos are good for 200k miles from the factory, and with a Procede/JB2/Xede/Helix tune, its now only good for 150k miles, I'd be fine with it too. But again, the point is, Shiv cannot say with any degree of certainty whether these particular turbos in the N54 will last 150k miles, or whether they'll be shot after 15k miles with Procede V2 at 15psi.
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      01-14-2008, 04:09 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by sambonator View Post
But again, the point is, Shiv cannot say with any degree of certainty whether these particular turbos in the N54 will last 150k miles, or whether they'll be shot after 15k miles with Procede V2 at 15psi.
Yes I can. Nearly 30k miles and going strong on my own car That said, I don't think anyone has done any serious study on turbo longevity... Dinan included.

The best testament to turbo durability, to this day, has been the 12hr Bathhurst endurance race that 2 PROcede'd cars participated in (and won) last year. Running racing conditions for 12hrs straight will induce more more stress than anyone of us will put on their cars during the entire time of ownership. By comparison, Subaru and Mitsu teams had back-up turbos handy since they have been known to experience turbo failure 7-8hrs into the race. And they aren't known to have fragile turbos. The 335s, on the other hand, were just as fresh finishing the 12hr race as they were when the started. I don't think any of us have anything to worry about as far as turbos go.

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