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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Dinan Software Warning...bad tuners.



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      01-14-2008, 04:36 AM   #45
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Hi Shiv,

I know Orb as a very competent and helpful contributor. He just speaks out very clearly what he has learned due to his profession and personality.

What you can do ( beside proper testing ) is to provide for your customers

1) Very well designed and constructed hardware ( I doubt this for the PROcede harness ).
2) Give your customers the possibility to run a 350whp / 350wtq map with the PROcede V2 or greater on an otherwise stock car. This can be done with your user adjustable torque map or a dedicated map for owners who like such numbers and the appropriate quality. Not everybody likes to squeeze out the max. possible from the engine. Assuming this would be immature.

A lot of your customers have excellent technical background and are as successful in their business as you are in yours.

The world changes a lot for you with the BMW market segment. Most of the customers have the money to switch to a different product as soon they feel they should, honestly. It's your responsibility to serve them well or they will change, as Orb already did. Others may follow.

BTW, the turbos in the 12h Bathurst race withstanded 11 psi, not 14-15 psi.

Cheers
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      01-14-2008, 04:59 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
You seem to be very convinced that Dinan has done more R&D and testing than "small" tuning shops like us. What makes you think this? Do you think that their delay into the market was due to a rigorous in-house test schedule? Or was it because they didn't even get a car until recently?

And I'm the one deceiving people? I think you should look at what you are doing. It's one thing to be happy with a purchase (as you seem to be). It's other thing to justify your purchase to yourself and others with ad hoc reasoning and supposition. If you think the Dinan flash is the best solution out there, you need to try a little harder to convince some of us. Just because a well-written advertisement/white papers is good enough for you, it's not good enough for others who actually have first hand experience with more than one tuning option.

Regardless, it's okay for us to have different opinions. Because that is just what they are... opinions.

Shiv

PS. And yes, I agree it is a silly idea to put a TMAP voltage divider on top of a flash to raise boost. Again, an opinion. I'm sure there are others will argue otherwise.
bro it "seems: that you are never wrong. You have a rebutle for EVERYTHING everyone tells you. Its becoming more and more annoying reading posts on how your smarter, better, and more knowledgeable than every other tuner. You arrogance is REALLY getting in the way of your true tuning knowledge and a product that is out-performing everyone else. loose the ego.
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      01-14-2008, 05:20 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e.n335 View Post
Hi Shiv,

I know Orb as a very competent and helpful contributor. He just speaks out very clearly what he has learned due to his profession and personality.

What you can do ( beside proper testing ) is to provide for your customers

1) Very well designed and constructed hardware ( I doubt this for the PROcede harness ).
2) Give your customers the possibility to run a 350whp / 350wtq map with the PROcede V2 or greater on an otherwise stock car. This can be done with your user adjustable torque map or a dedicated map for owners who like such numbers and the appropriate quality. Not everybody likes to squeeze out the max. possible from the engine. Assuming this would be immature.

A lot of your customers have excellent technical background and are as successful in their business as you are in yours.

The world changes a lot for you with the BMW market segment. Most of the customers have the money to switch to a different product as soon they feel they should, honestly. It's your responsibility to serve them well or they will change, as Orb already did. Others may follow.

BTW, the turbos in the 12h Bathurst race withstanded 11 psi, not 14-15 psi.

Cheers
Eugen
Are you saying that the PROcede harness isn't well-designed or constructed? Short of a few hand-made harness that I put together early during development, both the PROcede harness and v2 harness can withstand quite a bit of abuse in most respects. The terminals themselves, however, do have their limitations and need to be handled with car. The usual caveats apply.

As for providing users with the ability to make as much or as little power as they want, I think we already provide that with the User Torque table. Are you saying that we don't?

As for the Bathhurts cars, they ran 12psi. Under sustained race conditions, for 12 hours straight, during a hot summer. This is more stress than any of us will put on our turbos, at 15psi, during even the most aggressive street driving. Until one actually races a car and do a post race tear-down, one doesn't understand just how abusive it is. Things that simply never fail on the road, end up breaking, melting, cracking, smoking, etc,. after just a few hours of sustained racing. 12hrs is an order of magnitude more painful than that.

To tell the truth, none of us were expecting the cars to finish the 12hr race. We were fully prepared for the transmission, turbos, engine, wheel bearings, differential, etc,. to fail before the end of the race. With no prior racing history, we had no optimistic expectation for the car. To see it last the entire race, and then some, made a point that was hard to ignore.

By comparison, an Mitsu Evo that we ran with Car and Driver magazine a couple years ago at the 25hr of Thurnderhill Race went through 4 power steering pumps, 1 turbo (the wastegate actuator rod broke!), and a wheel bearing or two. In just 5hrs of racing in the middle of winter.

To say that the 335i is a robust car is a understatement.

Shiv
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      01-14-2008, 05:34 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
Actually, their R&D capabilities ARE impressive. If you truly believe the same amount of testing went into the JuiceBox, for example, you're smoking the plastic your crackpipe is made of. How many other tunes increase the duty cycle on the water pump to help cooling, by the way?



What's stopping these other companies from providing a warranty and putting Dinan out of business, then?



Dinan is rarely the first to market with anything, yet they continue to thrive. That fact speaks much louder than your ignorance.
Dinan is financing their warranty with their insanely high prices. There is a warranty because YOU are paying for it.

Is there any proof yet that remapping the water pump is helping anything? Until we see data to prove it is keeping the oil temps lower, then who is to say how efficient it is.
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      01-14-2008, 05:36 AM   #49
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It sounds to me like Orb needed to vent.... nothing more.
He talks about dinans probabilities and then he asks for supporting facts from Vishnu..
He then calls Vishnu a "Small Vendor" (joke)...
Im willing to bet (and i dont gamble) Vishnu's 335i has gone through more hard testing than all Dinan reflashes combined...

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      01-14-2008, 06:36 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
You seem to be very convinced that Dinan has done more R&D and testing than "small" tuning shops like us. What makes you think this? Do you think that their delay into the market was due to a rigorous in-house test schedule? Or was it because they didn't even get a car until recently?

And I'm the one deceiving people? I think you should look at what you are doing. It's one thing to be happy with a purchase (as you seem to be). It's other thing to justify your purchase to yourself and others with ad hoc reasoning and supposition. If you think the Dinan flash is the best solution out there, you need to try a little harder to convince some of us. Just because a well-written advertisement/white papers is good enough for you, it's not good enough for others who actually have first hand experience with more than one tuning option.

Regardless, it's okay for us to have different opinions. Because that is just what they are... opinions.

Shiv

PS. And yes, I agree it is a silly idea to put a TMAP voltage divider on top of a flash to raise boost. Again, an opinion. I'm sure there are others will argue otherwise.


Shiv, c'mon You havn't taken the engine out of the car and even dynoed it at the crank or even isolated the engine from the car and developed your tune using all the mechanics available. (IE control the the ECU.) You don't have a working relation with BMW and in fact many of your cutomers hide your software from BMW.

I highly respect your ability to tune a car... but 90% of your customers are leasing their cars and don't car about residual dmg done using your tune... because it's not their problem.

We are all aware of your testing and what you've done to insure the upmost in safety... but there is only so much a piggyback can do. You do not benchtest your engine nore run 24 hour stress tests, acquiring real time data. You simply do not have the resources nor the funds for such a complete analysis of what your tune does to the engine.

Please don't suggest that your "on par" with DINAN when it comes to R&D. It's laughable!





-Garrett

Last edited by Garrett; 01-14-2008 at 06:54 AM.
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      01-14-2008, 07:20 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
Please don't suggest that your "on par" with DINAN when it comes to R&D. It's laughable!
Please provide specifics, and their source, of what Dinan did insofar as R&D on the 335i is concerned. Depending upon what you can verify, I might start laughing.
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      01-14-2008, 07:56 AM   #52
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for me I don't care who did more r&d.. The point here is that dinan offers warranty and the fact they are well known for bmws.. Even if the flash is pricey.. Like Many said its because of the warranty.. I'm sure for v2 if u increase the price 400-600 bucks and offer warranty for ur product most buyers will fork up the extra money... Shiv if u strongly believe ur product is reliable ... Y not offer the warranty for ur product? I mean if u made me pay 2000 for v2 with warranty or 2000 for dinan I would probably would have got v2 ... But since u are new to many in bmw terms and no warrranty package with ur product that is y I went with dinan.
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      01-14-2008, 08:24 AM   #53
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for me I don't care who did more r&d.. The point here is that dinan offers warranty and the fact they are well known for bmws.. Even if the flash is pricey.. Like Many said its because of the warranty.. I'm sure for v2 if u increase the price 400-600 bucks and offer warranty for ur product most buyers will fork up the extra money... Shiv if u strongly believe ur product is reliable ... Y not offer the warranty for ur product? I mean if u made me pay 2000 for v2 with warranty or 2000 for dinan I would probably would have got v2 ... But since u are new to many in bmw terms and no warrranty package with ur product that is y I went with dinan.
My guess is he doesn't want that market. Many don't want to spend an extra $600 for a warranty. If dinan is willing to warrant 13 psi, then my guess is they think this car can handle that without problem for 50k miles or 4 years.
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      01-14-2008, 08:37 AM   #54
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he should offer warranty as a option to those who want to fork over extra money to have a peace of mind... I mean this whole debate is that his product v2 is very reliable and by offering warranty as a option will prove the r&d shiv done was a good job.. If not people who buy warranty will be covered under shiv's misstake

Orb is right that people tend to lean to v2 with a lease .. People who actually buys the car aim for dinan.. It comes down to the life span of the car
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      01-14-2008, 08:46 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by 335iBaller View Post
he should offer warranty as a option to those who want to fork over extra money to have a peace of mind... I mean this whole debate is that his product v2 is very reliable and by offering warranty as a option will prove the r&d shiv done was a good job.. If not people who buy warranty will be covered under shiv's misstake

Orb is right that people tend to lean to v2 with a lease .. People who actually buys the car aim for dinan.. It comes down to the life span of the car
You have to understand that Dinan is not going to pay out on most warranties. I would love to see figures of the number of claims versus the number of owners. The point is that if every Dinan customer pays for the warranty (which they do) it will more than fund the warranty claims. If only 30% bought the warranty, due to the expensive nature of this engine, my guess is that it would not fund warranty claims.
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      01-14-2008, 09:52 AM   #56
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From a mechanical standpoint, at 14psi+ (even with these little turbos) on the a stock 335i, I would worry about the long term effects of the torque on the engine block and the drivetrain before I worry about possible Turbo failures.
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      01-14-2008, 11:24 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillclaimndp View Post
Actually a turbo is really simple. a utilization of the hot, expanding exhaust gases spin the wheel on the exhaust side (heat, pressure, and volume are relative) which in turn rotates the compressor wheel on the intake side and that wheel compresses air which is used to force induction into the intake manifold. It's not as complicated as you propose at all, and if the turbo was good for 200k+ from the factory and now it's only 150k+... well I can live with that.
Did you just wiki turbo or something? Most of the people in this discussion seem to have engineering knowledge. How a turbo works agreed isnít that complex.

But, throw it on a computer controlled engine with a piggy back doing lord knows what to the signal and you have created thermal, pressure, and stress loads that are very complex!!
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      01-14-2008, 11:29 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillclaimndp View Post
Actually a turbo is really simple. a utilization of the hot, expanding exhaust gases spin the wheel on the exhaust side (heat, pressure, and volume are relative) which in turn rotates the compressor wheel on the intake side and that wheel compresses air which is used to force induction into the intake manifold. It's not as complicated as you propose at all, and if the turbo was good for 200k+ from the factory and now it's only 150k+... well I can live with that.
Lets see whether you are still singing that tune when your turbo blows, and warranty doesn't cover it.

My best friend is an engineer, and I discussed this with him just a few minutes ago. He is a 350z owner and could care else about our stupid tuner war or arguments, and he pretty much repeated everything Orb said
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      01-14-2008, 11:33 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e.n335 View Post
Hi Shiv,

I know Orb as a very competent and helpful contributor. He just speaks out very clearly what he has learned due to his profession and personality.

What you can do ( beside proper testing ) is to provide for your customers

1) Very well designed and constructed hardware ( I doubt this for the PROcede harness ).
2) Give your customers the possibility to run a 350whp / 350wtq map with the PROcede V2 or greater on an otherwise stock car. This can be done with your user adjustable torque map or a dedicated map for owners who like such numbers and the appropriate quality. Not everybody likes to squeeze out the max. possible from the engine. Assuming this would be immature.

A lot of your customers have excellent technical background and are as successful in their business as you are in yours.

The world changes a lot for you with the BMW market segment. Most of the customers have the money to switch to a different product as soon they feel they should, honestly. It's your responsibility to serve them well or they will change, as Orb already did. Others may follow.

BTW, the turbos in the 12h Bathurst race withstanded 11 psi, not 14-15 psi.

Cheers
Eugen
Wait are you suggesting Shiv may have "omitted" facts in order to benefit is argument........no, say it ain't so
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      01-14-2008, 11:39 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
Lets see whether you are still singing that tune when your turbo blows, and warranty doesn't cover it.

My best friend is an engineer, and I discussed this with him just a few minutes ago. He is a 350z owner and could care else about our stupid tuner war or arguments, and he pretty much repeated everything Orb said
Has your engineer friend looked at the internals of the engine? Rods, bolts, rings, pistons? Has he looked over the intake temps, cylinder temps, A/F ratios, effective compression ratio? Has he looked over the compressor maps to determine what boost is our of their efficiency range?

I mean come on guys, if you want to argue a point you need facts. This "my friend says" does nothing to forward the argument or the understanding of the N54.
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      01-14-2008, 11:55 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orb View Post
No, Dinan is the one who stated this not me. They stated openly they tested the RPM limitation of the turbos which is dictated by pressure. Any tune below this pressure would be seemed to be safe workings limit which about 13.5 PSI. I think your trivializing the complex nature of turbo. It is very complex in mechanical details you are taking for granted.

What this means to PROcede v2 is unclear but it may be shortening the turbos life. Is life expectancy 5% or 50% less. I wouldn’t know as its non linear.

The fact is as you push for bigger power number you need to be sure your whole system is suitable for the power increase or live with expected shorten life of some components which may not be a big deal form some.

Did Dinan actually go through benching the head to test for VE and comparing it against the relative compressor maps of the turbo to make claims that 13.5 psi is the operational limit of the turbo and whether its beyond the efficiency island and approaching the choke line?

I am assuming this N54 motor has VE in the range of at least 98%+ due to the fact that BMW knows how to design a decent head.

So if Dinan did indeed take into consideration all of the factors from brake specific fuel consumption, VE, ambient air temp, displacement and HP target, whats the verdict? Where is Dinan's tune based on the compressor map? This is a DEFINITE way to determine if the turbo "will fail".

Are you an ME yourself?
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      01-14-2008, 12:08 PM   #62
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Did Dinan actually go through benching the head to test for VE and comparing it against the relative compressor maps of the turbo to make claims that 13.5 psi is the operational limit of the turbo and whether its beyond the efficiency island and approaching the choke line?

I am assuming this N54 motor has VE in the range of at least 98%+ due to the fact that BMW knows how to design a decent head.

So if Dinan did indeed take into consideration all of the factors from brake specific fuel consumption, VE, ambient air temp, displacement and HP target, whats the verdict? Where is Dinan's tune based on the compressor map? This is a DEFINITE way to determine if the turbo "will fail".

Are you an ME yourself?
Malek, what you will find is a lack of answers on this forum sometimes. I cannot tell you how many times I have asked what duty cycle these injectors are running with many of these tunes. The compressor maps have been searched for many times with no results. IATs on the 15 psi setups are are 125 or so, which is not bad at all considering things. I think the 135i will changed things and bring over many more companies and DIY'ers, to change things for the better. Unfortunately, right now the tuners seem to keep far too much info private and they do not have a desire to make this information available to us.
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      01-14-2008, 12:09 PM   #63
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^ would they have to?

They have a working relationship with BMW. They could have gotten all that info from BMW directly without having to do all testing themselves.
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      01-14-2008, 12:11 PM   #64
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Malek, what you will find is a lack of answers on this forum sometimes. I cannot tell you how many times I have asked what duty cycle these injectors are running with many of these tunes. The compressor maps have been searched for many times with no results. IATs on the 15 psi setups are are 125 or so, which is not bad at all considering things. I think the 135i will changed things and bring over many more companies and DIY'ers, to change things for the better. Unfortunately, right now the tuners seem to keep far too much info private and they do not have a desire to make this information available to us.
Funny enough, I was looking for info on IDC. Haven't found any info. I know with my STi, the stock injectors run very high IDCs from the factory. In some cases as high as 98%... Stock.

Sure, it is fun to raise the boost. Fun to raise the fueling. But at what cost? Nothing worse than an injector failing and having a cylinder run lean.
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      01-14-2008, 12:21 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
Has your engineer friend looked at the internals of the engine? Rods, bolts, rings, pistons? Has he looked over the intake temps, cylinder temps, A/F ratios, effective compression ratio? Has he looked over the compressor maps to determine what boost is our of their efficiency range?

I mean come on guys, if you want to argue a point you need facts. This "my friend says" does nothing to forward the argument or the understanding of the N54.
He wouldn't need to know any of that to agree with Orb.

Orb simply asked for some sort of scientific study when making all of this power.

In truth, both Orb and Shiv have points in their discussion. For a true study one would perform Orb’s modeling and stress calculations. Then, back your study up with real life working examples, which is where Shiv’s data resides.

You really need both of these to be complete. Usually, one is ignored due to time constraints (Shiv’s) or resources limits (Orb’s).
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      01-14-2008, 12:27 PM   #66
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often times, its the real life data that is more important. I cant explain how many times well thought out idea's and engineered goals have failed in real time.

Yes its good to be thorough on both ends (R&D and real time testing) but its the real time information that will yield the results and information we are truly looking for and will allow us to move forward.
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