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      09-16-2010, 02:32 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by mohammadz View Post
QUick question guys....

At the track, when im coming from a straight going 180-200+, how do I tackle a turn thats pretty much 90 degrees?

I mean in terms of shifting, since theres quite a bit of hard braking, should I be going 5-4-3-2 or just slow down, double clutch and pop into 2nd? I find that when i go through all the gears, I end up having to slow down well before i really need to.

Any opinions?
First, for our US friends, you're talking km/h not mph. Second, to answer your question, not that I do this a lot, but my vote is brake hard and go directly to second. You never need to row gears sequentially.
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      09-16-2010, 02:45 PM   #376
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Any opinions?
Find an instructor.

You will NEVER be able to grasp the concept by trying to learn it from the intarweb. This stuff is something that can only be shown to you by an experienced driver.
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      10-16-2010, 01:36 AM   #377
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long time manual driver advice to beginners

The first time I stole my parents car I was 15, a Saab 900 with a manual trans. I figured I'd seen it done a thousand times, how hard could it be?
I tried to quietly back out of the driveway but I lit up the tires in the process. I froze for a second, knowing they must have heard me, but decided I was in trouble anyway so I might as well finish my joyride. I dropped it into first and hit the gas, squealing the tires again. I struggled with launches and 1-2 shifts at first, but in about 10 minutes I was driving reasonably smooth. My parents never noticed, and I "borrowed" their car regularly after that.
My first car was also to be a manual and my dad insisted that I take my drivers test with it, even though I wanted to borrow an automatic because I thought it would be easier. I wound up passing the test, the only comments from the instructor being that I needed to downshift to second when coming to a stop instead of coasting. He said it was safer, and it is.
Since then, I have driven many manual cars, and never had to replace a clutch. I even bought a honda accord with a slipping clutch that I drove for a year before I ditched it, and the clutch was still as good as when I got it.

So here are my tips for normal driving from years of experience and hundreds of thousands of miles rowing my own gears-

Don't ride the clutch. Make a habit of putting your left foot on the floor after every shift. Feathering it in reverse is fine.

For smoothness and safety in normal driving, keep it between 2000 and 3000. Rev-match your down shifts if you're over 2500 rpm or driving spiritedly, but otherwise it's not a big deal. I regularly use the engine for braking, I just allow the rpms to hit 2000 before I downshift. I hear that it's "bad", but I've replaced many, many brake pads and 0 clutches. My general pattern for day to day driving is upshift around 3000 and downshift around 2000. Launch smoothly from 1000.

Don't worry about your clutch! My belief is that once you learn to drive smoothly, your clutch is a non issue. It's the clutch's job to "slip" between gear changes, and most people that fry a clutch do so because they drive aggressively, and that driving style will fry an automatic as well. Also remember, replacing a clutch in these cars is about $1000, and I'm guessing a new automatic is $4000+. I've seen and driven many cars with over 100k miles on the original clutch.

And driving a manual is manly.

Last edited by casemagic; 10-16-2010 at 01:50 AM.
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      06-06-2011, 08:24 PM   #378
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Good info! I've been driving for 10 years and just learning how to drive a manual. Friends have always said they'll teach me, just not on their car. My friend let me practice on his E92 335i and I did really well! Didn't stall once.
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      07-11-2011, 12:19 PM   #379
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There seems to be quite a bit of misinformation in this thread. Forgive the length of this post but I wanted to reiterate the proper method of rev matching during a downshift as it was taught to me.

Some general tips about downshifting and rev matching. This has been stated before in previous posts buried in the thread.

The entire point of downshifting to a lower gear (in day to day driving) when slowing down is to keep the car constantly in a gear and under power. Or going into a lower gear in order to exert more power from your vehicle (passing a car on the highway etc, impromptu stop light granprix's).

You want to do this for the simple fact of being able to apply throttle to avoid any emergencies that may happen. That 1 second it takes to shift from neutral into a gear can be the difference between an accident and being able to apply throttle and avoid something behind or in front of you. Of course this is only when applying the brakes isn't the most logical thing to do in an emergency situation.

Also, there is absolutely Zero reason to double clutch a manual transmission that uses syncro's (i.e. any modern trans).

The logic behind rev matching is to sync your flywheel (by bliping the throttle) to your tranny speed, in order to downshift into a lower gear and stay under throttle through a turn or to use the engine to brake.

Simply put you want to match the flywheel RPM to what the RPM of the transmission would be in the gear you select. So for example:

You are in 4th gear going 40mph at 2500 rpm (hypothetical numbers)

Hypothetically 3rd gear at 40mph would cause the RPM's to sit at 3500rpm. So logically when you shift into 3rd gear you'll want the flywheel to be spinning at 3500rpm so that when you let go of the clutch pedal your engine speed will be spinning at the same rpm as the transmission in 3rd gear.

So it's as simple as

1, depress clutch
2, blip throttle so RPM's are a tad above targeted RPM (3500rpm in this case) while shifting into 3rd gear
3, engage clutch
4, feel like a boss

Putting the RPM's above slightly what you intend is done to compensate for the drop in RPM's while you shift/engage the clutch.

It's really as simple as that, but it's a learned technique. No one can tell you the correct RPM's for every gear at every speed. It's something that varies drastically from car to car, mods, wheel sizes etc. It can only be learned with practice.

This leads into a more advanced technique that I'm sure many have heard about called heel/toe. The purpose of the heel/toe technique is simply to be able to apply the brake while performing a proper rev matched downshift.

It just involves all the steps mentioned above but using your right foot to apply the brake and blip the throttle at the same time. This one however can be dangerous when practiced in traffic for the first time. But can make driving very fun even in ho hum every day traffic.

For fun, here's a you tube video of Walter Rohrl an amazing group B rally driver from way back in the day. You can see his pedal work using heel/toe, left foot/trail braking and some amazing speed.

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      07-19-2011, 09:47 AM   #380
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Good summary - thanks foxcolt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxcolt View Post
There seems to be quite a bit of misinformation in this thread. Forgive the length of this post but I wanted to reiterate the proper method of rev matching during a downshift as it was taught to me.

Some general tips about downshifting and rev matching. This has been stated before in previous posts buried in the thread.

The entire point of downshifting to a lower gear (in day to day driving) when slowing down is to keep the car constantly in a gear and under power. Or going into a lower gear in order to exert more power from your vehicle (passing a car on the highway etc, impromptu stop light granprix's).

You want to do this for the simple fact of being able to apply throttle to avoid any emergencies that may happen. That 1 second it takes to shift from neutral into a gear can be the difference between an accident and being able to apply throttle and avoid something behind or in front of you. Of course this is only when applying the brakes isn't the most logical thing to do in an emergency situation.

Also, there is absolutely Zero reason to double clutch a manual transmission that uses syncro's (i.e. any modern trans).

The logic behind rev matching is to sync your flywheel (by bliping the throttle) to your tranny speed, in order to downshift into a lower gear and stay under throttle through a turn or to use the engine to brake.

Simply put you want to match the flywheel RPM to what the RPM of the transmission would be in the gear you select. So for example:

You are in 4th gear going 40mph at 2500 rpm (hypothetical numbers)

Hypothetically 3rd gear at 40mph would cause the RPM's to sit at 3500rpm. So logically when you shift into 3rd gear you'll want the flywheel to be spinning at 3500rpm so that when you let go of the clutch pedal your engine speed will be spinning at the same rpm as the transmission in 3rd gear.

So it's as simple as

1, depress clutch
2, blip throttle so RPM's are a tad above targeted RPM (3500rpm in this case) while shifting into 3rd gear
3, engage clutch
4, feel like a boss

Putting the RPM's above slightly what you intend is done to compensate for the drop in RPM's while you shift/engage the clutch.

It's really as simple as that, but it's a learned technique. No one can tell you the correct RPM's for every gear at every speed. It's something that varies drastically from car to car, mods, wheel sizes etc. It can only be learned with practice.

This leads into a more advanced technique that I'm sure many have heard about called heel/toe. The purpose of the heel/toe technique is simply to be able to apply the brake while performing a proper rev matched downshift.

It just involves all the steps mentioned above but using your right foot to apply the brake and blip the throttle at the same time. This one however can be dangerous when practiced in traffic for the first time. But can make driving very fun even in ho hum every day traffic.

For fun, here's a you tube video of Walter Rohrl an amazing group B rally driver from way back in the day. You can see his pedal work using heel/toe, left foot/trail braking and some amazing speed.

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      08-08-2011, 02:23 AM   #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxcolt View Post
There seems to be quite a bit of misinformation in this thread. Forgive the length of this post but I wanted to reiterate the proper method of rev matching during a downshift as it was taught to me.

Some general tips about downshifting and rev matching. This has been stated before in previous posts buried in the thread.

The entire point of downshifting to a lower gear (in day to day driving) when slowing down is to keep the car constantly in a gear and under power. Or going into a lower gear in order to exert more power from your vehicle (passing a car on the highway etc, impromptu stop light granprix's).

You want to do this for the simple fact of being able to apply throttle to avoid any emergencies that may happen. That 1 second it takes to shift from neutral into a gear can be the difference between an accident and being able to apply throttle and avoid something behind or in front of you. Of course this is only when applying the brakes isn't the most logical thing to do in an emergency situation.

Also, there is absolutely Zero reason to double clutch a manual transmission that uses syncro's (i.e. any modern trans).

The logic behind rev matching is to sync your flywheel (by bliping the throttle) to your tranny speed, in order to downshift into a lower gear and stay under throttle through a turn or to use the engine to brake.

Simply put you want to match the flywheel RPM to what the RPM of the transmission would be in the gear you select. So for example:

You are in 4th gear going 40mph at 2500 rpm (hypothetical numbers)

Hypothetically 3rd gear at 40mph would cause the RPM's to sit at 3500rpm. So logically when you shift into 3rd gear you'll want the flywheel to be spinning at 3500rpm so that when you let go of the clutch pedal your engine speed will be spinning at the same rpm as the transmission in 3rd gear.

So it's as simple as

1, depress clutch
2, blip throttle so RPM's are a tad above targeted RPM (3500rpm in this case) while shifting into 3rd gear
3, engage clutch
4, feel like a boss

Putting the RPM's above slightly what you intend is done to compensate for the drop in RPM's while you shift/engage the clutch.

It's really as simple as that, but it's a learned technique. No one can tell you the correct RPM's for every gear at every speed. It's something that varies drastically from car to car, mods, wheel sizes etc. It can only be learned with practice.

This leads into a more advanced technique that I'm sure many have heard about called heel/toe. The purpose of the heel/toe technique is simply to be able to apply the brake while performing a proper rev matched downshift.

It just involves all the steps mentioned above but using your right foot to apply the brake and blip the throttle at the same time. This one however can be dangerous when practiced in traffic for the first time. But can make driving very fun even in ho hum every day traffic.

For fun, here's a you tube video of Walter Rohrl an amazing group B rally driver from way back in the day. You can see his pedal work using heel/toe, left foot/trail braking and some amazing speed.

Very well put; everything was spot on! I was about explain all this since i read some misinformation on the first page about rev matching. Love the video by the way!

I find it hilarious when people are in neutral around a turn because that is the ONE thing i stress not to do when I'm teaching someone how to drive MT.
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      08-08-2011, 03:29 AM   #382
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I’d like to leave my 2 cents in this thread from my experience. I’m assuming everyone here is driving a MT e90. If not, you can disregard a few of the things I am going to mention. I drive a 06’ e90 325i.

1. No reason to be clutch happy. If you’re coming from a MT Honda, you will notice that going over speed bumps (unless obnoxiously huge) does not need you to be pressing on the clutch. The car’s electronics gives the vehicle the appropriate amount of gas to keep it going forward in first gear, and there is enough power to the wheels that allows you gently go over speed bumps without pressing the clutch. With this in mind, I’d like to share that while in traffic, I like to make use to the car’s given torque that keeps the car moving at a very slow pace. Give yourself some room between you and the car in front of you so that you don’t find yourself stopping and going constantly. Yes we don’t want people to try to cut in front of us so we tail the other person or something (that’s reckless btw!), but you will catch yourself pressing on your clutch and stopping for no reason and that’s no way to conserve gas… So give yourself some room and let the car cruise. I live in LA and traffic here is horrible, but I only see myself stepping on my clutch only when I KNOW I’m coming to a complete stop. The e90 can reach ridiculously slow speeds before I need to step on the clutch to avoid stalling.

2. DON’T throw your car in neutral before coming to a stop at a red light from 500ft away or while turning. I was fortunate enough to never build this bad habit because my brother would yell at me while I was learning and if I did this he would get mad haha. It’s a poor driving habit that really can put you in danger if an emergency were to occur (this is something I tell EVERYONE when I teach them how to drive MT). If you are coming towards a red light/stop sign, you can practice your rev matching and engine break, practice your heal-toe, or just break as you would in an automatic vehicle till you’re about to come to a complete stop, then press the clutch and throw the car into neutral before stopping.

3. The best way to practice Rev-matching is on the freeway! Every car is different and for myself I find myself with the e90 (n52 engine fyi) at 75mph at around 3000rpm (a bit less but you get my drift) in 6th gear. 6th-5th at this speed brings my revs to a bit less than 3500rpm and 5-4th, brings me to around 4000rpm. I make it a habit to not just skip from 6 to 4th while breaking, but if I need to pass someone (in a speedy way =P) I’ll skip around in my gearbox. I’m not fond of it but I do catch myself going from 6th straight to 4th sometimes. I try not to do this due to proper racing technique. I love heel/toe’ing (though its not necessary for daily use) but the mere action of being able to do this flawlessly is rewarding and you don’t skip gears while you heal-toe. I tell new drivers to not skip around in the gear box even while revmatching to speed up because going through the gears allows you to better know your car how it reacts at different speeds at different gears. Get to know your car

4. From stop to a rolling start, some people will notice a rumbling from their car. This is cause by the clutch delay valve that is in your BMW and you are releasing your clutch without giving it enough gas to get power to your wheels. In order to smoothen out your driving you are gonna be on your clutch a bit longer than you’d ideally like to be while giving it the appropriate amount of gas. You can buy a modified CDV (thinking about getting one at bavauto.com) for about 30 bucks. This technically is “riding” your clutch, but is normal wear and tear on a BMW. You don’t need to ride your clutch for a LONG time, but more than what you would like to. Practice in your car and work out the kinks. I notice I am doing from a stop in first and also when I’m switching from 1st to 2nd, I am on the clutch a tad bit longer than I’d like to be. All the other up shifts are smooth as long as you don’t just drop your clutch as soon as you’re in gear.

5. Lastly, just practice, and don’t pick up bad habits  I can’t really advice you how to smoothen out your driving while switching gears unless we are in a car haha =P

PM if you have any questions love to be a source for people 
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      08-20-2011, 11:59 PM   #383
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Hey guys,

Is it bad not to put the clutch all the way in (to the floor) when I am shifting gears? Is barely going past the engagement point to change gears sufficient? I'm trying to drive smoother and my thinking is that changing gears closer to the engagement point will keep the rpms from dropping too much.

In addition, I tend to sort of let the clutch out slowly without gas at all on some of my shifts. For instance, I would rev to about 3500 in third and then switch into fourth without any gas at all to coast and save some gas.

Is this bad for the transmission? I figure its sort of like engine braking.

Thanks a lot!
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      08-21-2011, 01:52 PM   #384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cekim View Post
Hey guys,

Is it bad not to put the clutch all the way in (to the floor) when I am shifting gears? Is barely going past the engagement point to change gears sufficient? I'm trying to drive smoother and my thinking is that changing gears closer to the engagement point will keep the rpms from dropping too much.

In addition, I tend to sort of let the clutch out slowly without gas at all on some of my shifts. For instance, I would rev to about 3500 in third and then switch into fourth without any gas at all to coast and save some gas.

Is this bad for the transmission? I figure its sort of like engine braking.

Thanks a lot!
It's fine as long as you pass the engagement point of the clutch where it will disengage.
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      09-21-2011, 02:16 PM   #385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mohammadz View Post
QUick question guys....

At the track, when im coming from a straight going 180-200+, how do I tackle a turn thats pretty much 90 degrees?

I mean in terms of shifting, since theres quite a bit of hard braking, should I be going 5-4-3-2 or just slow down, double clutch and pop into 2nd? I find that when i go through all the gears, I end up having to slow down well before i really need to.

Any opinions?
Why are you asking this question, is this really at the "track"? If have questions like this, I'd imagine your instructor would cover this.

You should be doing threshold braking combined with proper heel/toe.
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      09-21-2011, 07:36 PM   #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mohammadz View Post
QUick question guys....

At the track, when im coming from a straight going 180-200+, how do I tackle a turn thats pretty much 90 degrees?

I mean in terms of shifting, since theres quite a bit of hard braking, should I be going 5-4-3-2 or just slow down, double clutch and pop into 2nd? I find that when i go through all the gears, I end up having to slow down well before i really need to.

Any opinions?
Many race cars including the racing version ofthe M3 have sequential gearboxes that do not allow you to skip gears.

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      09-29-2011, 11:33 AM   #387
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When I accelerate under full throttle and switch gears from 1 to 2 or 2 to 3, I always either jerk hard or skid the tires. What's the proper way to shift quickly near redline? When I shift at ~6800, second gear would land around say 6000... but when I shift fast, I release the clutch around 6500, so naturally the car jerks. How do I fix this? Does a modified CDV help? Thanks.
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      10-19-2012, 09:16 AM   #388
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Just posted this somewhere else, but thought I would put it here for future reference, in case anybody needs it:

It is possible to drive the E90 335i LCI MT transmission smoothly (dunno about the others, just referring to what I have)

You do not need a CDV delete or clutch stop or anything to drive it smooth, granted, getting the aforementioned might make things easier.

My number 1 tip for driving the 6MT we have in our cars smoothly is staying on the throttle when upshifting, i.e. revmatching while upshifting. Let me illustrate: say you're revving 2000 rpm in 1st and want to go to 2nd. Clutch in, but do NOT LIFT YOUR FOOT OFF THE ACCELERATOR COMPLETELY. Instead, go to like 1400 RPM, or whatever the correct engine speed is for your actual speed. Now, as you release the clutch, smoothly apply gas to keep the revs at the appropriate level. When the clutch is out, stomp on it, and then do the same for all proceeding shifts.

Like this, I can go from 1->2->3->4 at city speeds and you can't feel a thing, only smooth acceleration.

I don't even think about the RPMs now or look at the tach, I can just feel how much I have to move my foot. Learning the process becomes easier if you shift at like 3000 rpm or so, the engine has more inertia and you have longer to adjust your revs = easier to be smooth.

Other cars that I have driven (NA or turbodiesel) haven't required staying on the throttle as much as this car likes it.

ANY amount you stay on the gas (even like 0.00001mm depressed pedal) is better than having your foot off the gas while upshifting.

Of course, with your foot on the gas, you do not want the RPMs to climb while upshifting.

Downshifting, there is no need to move your foot off the accelerator at all, just revmatch.
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      03-10-2013, 12:12 PM   #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxcolt View Post

1, depress clutch
2, blip throttle so RPM's are a tad above targeted RPM (3500rpm in this case) while shifting into 3rd gear
3, engage clutch
4, feel like a boss

For fun, here's a you tube video of Walter Rohrl an amazing group B rally driver from way back in the day. You can see his pedal work using heel/toe, left foot/trail braking and some amazing speed.


Good post and great video, I doubt my feet will ever move like that though lol
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      04-05-2013, 01:18 PM   #390
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Agreed

Im guessing youre someone who hasnt had much time driving a stick day to day. Frankly, I think if you dont drive stick shift day to day theres no point in trying to get better because you will never reach perfection. Start with the basics (no downshifting, letting the clutch out slow) and get a feel for your car. I drove stick for a year before I actually was driving my own stick shift car. I was so confident that I was literally a professional since I had been practicing and consistently making an effort.. I now realize all of that was a waste of time.. Day to day stick driving through a city will make you a REAL pro in a year.
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      07-16-2013, 12:26 PM   #391
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My question relates to upshifting: I am having issues shifting smoothly from 1st to 2nd and sometimes 2nd to 3rd when I don't stretch out the gears. With my mom in the car, I don't want to drive too assertively, but shifting to a higher gear when driving somewhat modestly results in jerky transitions. Any advice?
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      08-06-2013, 10:17 AM   #392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joelk01
My question relates to upshifting: I am having issues shifting smoothly from 1st to 2nd and sometimes 2nd to 3rd when I don't stretch out the gears. With my mom in the car, I don't want to drive too assertively, but shifting to a higher gear when driving somewhat modestly results in jerky transitions. Any advice?
When I just got the car I also had a lot of trouble shifting smoothly from 1st to 2nd. What I've found is that there's a large RPM drop to match up going from 1st to 2nd. On my 330i it's about 1.5k. So if shifting around 3k, let the RPM needle drop to around 1.5k before you let the clutch back out. The timing has to be perfect to get a smooth shift from 1st to 2nd. So you just gotta have patience. Slow shifting I don't know why it takes so long for the RPM to drop in 1st gear.
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