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      02-08-2008, 12:10 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantis View Post
no one is doubting your driving skills in particular. his comment was general for all of us.

I think you double-clutch to do what synchros are supposed to do, i.e. to save them since they wear out quick
I understand that the synchros are there to pick up the slack since most people, including myself, cannot revmatch 100% perfectly on every downshift, but if you are revmatching within 100rpm or so of a downshift by putting the clutch in, selecting the lower gear as you blip the throttle, and release the clutch, there is no extra wear on your synchros opposed to putting the car in neutral and then hitting the clutch in once again.
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      02-08-2008, 12:12 PM   #134
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true.. u wanna kill ur clutch vs. u wanna kill ur synchros... iono.. im not convinced either way still. i dont find either answers convincing to be honest.

i guess i need to see these vid's i have been posting and read up more on that to understand what each component is doing exactly...
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      02-08-2008, 12:13 PM   #135
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btw, my synchro's in the car im driving right now are pretty much out... and the clutch is slipping too! so i have to double-clutch up and down
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      02-08-2008, 12:41 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by BK View Post
I haven't looked at the photos linked above, but most synchros I've seen in photos are pretty unsophisticated. They look like brass rings. One side is fixed to the collar and the other is open and grabs the end of the spinning gear to synch up the speed of the collar to the gear, so the teeth of the collar will plug into the gear without grinding. Basically, it is grabbing the gear without teeth to allow it to slip a bit and speed up, before it inserts the teeth into the gear.

Those with more knowledge can correct me if I've described it wrong, but it seems like a brilliant but uncomplicated solution. I'd imagine synchros get hot quickly and will get worn if you do a lot of downshifting without rev-matching.
Wow, you are correct about the simplicity of the synchro rings. They looked very fragile compare to the gears themselves. Now this makes me think about my synchros. How do I know if your synchro is worn out? (and no mantis I will not let you drive my car to see if my synchros are worn out).


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Originally Posted by mantis View Post
I dont have sound, but i think this guy is discussing the synchro's at some point in his video

http://videos.howstuffworks.com/hows...work-video.htm
I found this video by looking at one of your link above. I was going to post the video but you beat me to the punch Finally some actual image of synchros.
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      02-08-2008, 12:46 PM   #137
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Very nice explanation. I'm not sure why it was directed at me since I revmatch everyday and heel/toe pretty often despite this gas pedal setup that I hate in this car, but that's a rant for another thread.

Ok, I guess I worded my other post wrong. I have always known why you need to revmatch. All you need to do is drive 100ft and downshift without doing so to realize this. What I don't get is why you need release the clutch when revmatching/downshifting. To me, this seems like a waste of time when you can just keep your foot down on the clutch, which is the same as being in neutral, and blip the throttle right before letting it back out. I just do it in a fluid motion. To have to release the clutch out to blip the throttle and then put it back in, just to release it once again seems like its redundant for no reason. Maybe I just have a different driving style, but when I downshift its smooth and quick so I guess I have to be doing something right. BTW, I'm not talking in theory here about a friend who told me how to drive a MT. I drive one everyday for the past several years so I understand what's going on between the engine and the drivetrain, but I just don't get the practice of actually hitting the clutch twice when you can get the same results in only doing so once. Does this make sense to anyone else?

*edit*... I just re-read your response about synchros versus a dogbox and I now realize what you are trying to say, which is exactly what I was thinking in that its not necessary to doubleclutch a street car. I thought I was going crazy for a minute.
My post was not directed at anyone in particular.

I just read your edit. That is exactly what I was saying - it is not necessary to doubleclutch a street car. You can hold the clutch in and blip to match revs and then let the clutch out. I got in the habit of double clutching and did it in my (previous) street car. It was not really necessary but it kept me in practice and I got to play race car driver. .
On a car with synchros you can shift smoothly without using the clutch at all. You can let off the accelerator and shift into neutral without the clutch. If you gently push the shifter towared the next geat when the revs match the tranny will pop into gear. This is easier on an upshift than a downshit because you don't have to blip while in neutral, I don't necessarily recommend trying this because if you don't get it right you will get a horrible grinding of gears.

I have the OEM aluminum pedals. It seems that they would make heel and toe easier to do - but since my 335 is a Steptronic I am speculating.


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Last edited by captainaudio; 02-08-2008 at 01:14 PM.
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      02-08-2008, 12:51 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txusa03 View Post
(and no mantis I will not let you drive my car to see if my synchros are worn out).




I found this video by looking at one of your link above. I was going to post the video but you beat me to the punch Finally some actual image of synchros.
FINE!!!!!! fine someone else to drive your car and wash your dishes

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jk... how you can tell? when you wont be able to down shift without bliping anymore, i think!

they're not THAT fragile. in any case, the way i think about it is, the cost of changing clutch plate < cost of changing any other component in the tranny (the cost is mostly in labor)
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      02-08-2008, 12:59 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by mantis View Post

yah that's bad for your clutch... that's like those who sit at traffic lights and keep going back and forth using the clutch (aka Mantis )
So what is the best method for slow inclined freeway ramp traffic?
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      02-08-2008, 01:05 PM   #140
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So what is the best method for slow inclined freeway ramp traffic?
if it's always stop-and-go without really having a second or 2 in between then im not sure there's much you can do man. change the ramp

you can go, fully stop, putting in neutral, applying brakes or e-brake, then go when you need to. it kinda sucks, coz ramps are not slow enough to be kind to your clutch, and not fast enough to keep it in gear either.
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      02-08-2008, 01:05 PM   #141
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The reason why they looked fragile to me is because I am picturing myself standing next to the governor of california or Brock Lesner

Note to self-need to revisit BK's thread and read more about his description of how the synchros work.
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      02-08-2008, 01:20 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
My post was not directed at anyone in particular.

I just read your edit. That is exactly what I was saying - it is not necessary to doubleclutch a street car. You can hold the clutch in and blip to match revs and then let the clutch out. I got in the habit of double clutching and did it in my (previous) street car. It was not really necessary but it kept me in practice and I got to play race car driver. .
On a car with synchros you can shift smoothly without using the clutch at all. You can let off the accelerator and shift into neutral without the clutch. If you gently push the shifter towared the next geat when the revs match the tranny will pop into gear. This is easier on an upshift than a downshit because you don't have to blip while in neutral, I don't necessarily recommend trying this because if you don't get it right you will get a horrible grinding of gears.

I have the OEM aluminum pedals. It seems that they would make heel and toe easier to do - but since my 335 is a Steptronic I am speculating.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantis View Post
true.. u wanna kill ur clutch vs. u wanna kill ur synchros... iono.. im not convinced either way still. i dont find either answers convincing to be honest.

i guess i need to see these vid's i have been posting and read up more on that to understand what each component is doing exactly...
Mantis, keep in mind that the clutch IS a wear item. Under normal driving it still wears, just at a much slower rate than if you didn't know how to drive properly. So, don't sweat it, and just drive. After a few weeks you will be able to just feel what's going on and know when you didn't match your revvs correctly. It takes a lot of bad driving to melt out your clutch or destroy your transmission.
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      02-08-2008, 01:22 PM   #143
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So what is the best method for slow inclined freeway ramp traffic?
reading your previous post, you are talking about highway entrance ramp in the morning during rush hours where there is a light that only allow 2 cars at most to get throught the ramp. We have that too in texas. Here is what I do when i am in the lane of the entrance ramp and maybe you can try it out at your own risk .

Because only 2 cars exit the ramp per green light, you will move a very short distance and have to stop again. Well, when the car in front of you move, you don't necessarily have to move forward right away, wait a bit for another session of green light and 2 more additional cars will exit and you have more distance now to move forward (this might piss off folks behind you-but how cares).

Second (this is what I do), when I am in the entrance ramp in the rush hours of the morning, I time myself by driving slow and keeping an eye on the distance of the car in front of me. This is done in 1st gear. As soon as the car in front of me brake, I let out the gas and just let the car coast in first gear and just let the car craw up slowly. You will see your RPM needle drop very fast and just keep an eye on the needle and feel a sudden slow movement in the car and the car behind you might not realized that your car is slowing down (no red brake light since you have not pressed on the brake). But in bumper to bumper traffic, this is not really that dangerous but someone who is not paying attention can rear end you. Most of the entrance ramps in my area has a slop but it does not slope enough to stall the car. The trick is to keep the RPM needle below 1K mark and above the .5K mark, if the needle falls below .5k mark, either give some gas or press the clutch and brake.
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      02-08-2008, 01:36 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by BoostedBMW View Post




Mantis, keep in mind that the clutch IS a wear item. Under normal driving it still wears, just at a much slower rate than if you didn't know how to drive properly. So, don't sweat it, and just drive. After a few weeks you will be able to just feel what's going on and know when you didn't match your revvs correctly. It takes a lot of bad driving to melt out your clutch or destroy your transmission.
yah that was exactly my point. Wear out your clutch is better than wearing out your other tranny components for sure. Cost of labor, cost of parts, time, etc is not comparable.

but check this out man... my coworker did 125k miles on ORIGINAL clutch in his nissan, and 130k on his toyota!! original factory clutch that came with the car. that'd be nice if i can do that
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      02-08-2008, 01:38 PM   #145
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but check this out man... my coworker did 125k miles on ORIGINAL clutch in his nissan, and 130k on his toyota!! original factory clutch that came with the car. that'd be nice if i can do that
That is my goal too
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      02-08-2008, 01:40 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by txusa03 View Post
reading your previous post, you are talking about highway entrance ramp in the morning during rush hours where there is a light that only allow 2 cars at most to get throught the ramp. We have that too in texas. Here is what I do when i am in the lane of the entrance ramp and maybe you can try it out at your own risk .

Because only 2 cars exit the ramp per green light, you will move a very short distance and have to stop again. Well, when the car in front of you move, you don't necessarily have to move forward right away, wait a bit for another session of green light and 2 more additional cars will exit and you have more distance now to move forward (this might piss off folks behind you-but how cares).

Second (this is what I do), when I am in the entrance ramp in the rush hours of the morning, I time myself by driving slow and keeping an eye on the distance of the car in front of me. This is done in 1st gear. As soon as the car in front of me brake, I let out the gas and just let the car coast in first gear and just let the car craw up slowly. You will see your RPM needle drop very fast and just keep an eye on the needle and feel a sudden slow movement in the car and the car behind you might not realized that your car is slowing down (no red brake light since you have not pressed on the brake). But in bumper to bumper traffic, this is not really that dangerous but someone who is not paying attention can rear end you. Most of the entrance ramps in my area has a slop but it does not slope enough to stall the car. The trick is to keep the RPM needle below 1K mark and above the .5K mark, if the needle falls below .5k mark, either give some gas or press the clutch and brake.
so im not the only one that does that
i keep enough distance to stay in 1st gear and keep throttle open lightly so car doesnt jerk. but sometimes people get imaptient behind you. so what i do is take another ramp
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      02-08-2008, 01:52 PM   #147
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so im not the only one that does that
i keep enough distance to stay in 1st gear and keep throttle open lightly so car doesnt jerk. but sometimes people get imaptient behind you. so what i do is take another ramp
impatient ppl are everywhere.

Another thing, when driving a manual in rush hour bumper to bumper traffic, don't move up just because the car in front of you move up, use your common sense and see if cars further up ahead is really moving or the person in front of you got itchy foot. It is so annoying being behind someone that inches up at a stop light or in bumper to bumper traffic. I normally just stay in place until there are any real movement ahead.
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      02-08-2008, 01:53 PM   #148
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impatient ppl are everywhere.

Another thing, when driving a manual in rush hour bumper to bumper traffic, don't move up just because the car in front of you move up, use your common sense and see if cars further up ahead is really moving or the person in front of you got itchy foot. It is so annoying being behind someone that inches up at a stop light or in bumper to bumper traffic. I normally just stay in place until there are any real movement ahead.
regardless. in LA you get like 4 cars filling the gap right away for some reason!!!

oh shit, GAPPP cant have gap on freeway... FILL IT
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      02-08-2008, 01:54 PM   #149
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regardless. in LA you get like 4 cars filling the gap right away for some reason!!!

oh shit, GAPPP cant have gap on freeway... FILL IT
crazy impatient folks
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      02-08-2008, 02:50 PM   #150
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Your car will get better mileage rolling downhill in 6th, than it gets rolling downhill in neutral.

This is why we need this thread.
And this is why we need more explanation... why is this so? In neutral, is gas still being fed into the engine? More so than in 6th gear with the engine braking?
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      02-08-2008, 02:54 PM   #151
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And this is why we need more explanation... why is this so? In neutral, is gas still being fed into the engine? More so than in 6th gear with the engine braking?
i think ur fuel injectors shut off or something. someone was talking about it a couple pages back. search for injectors
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      02-08-2008, 03:17 PM   #152
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just liked to add that heel-toe for me is hard in this car...still learning it....it was cake in my Z
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      02-08-2008, 03:20 PM   #153
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just liked to add that heel-toe for me is hard in this car...still learning it....it was cake in my Z
do you actually heel-toe or ball of foot-side of foot?
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      02-08-2008, 03:39 PM   #154
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do you actually heel-toe or ball of foot-side of foot?
Ball/right side....i kinda seem to balance it quite right yet...still learning to dot it.....can we heel toe on this car?
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