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      02-25-2008, 04:31 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManMachine View Post
Regarding stopping (seeing a red light ahead), I think it's best just to press on the brake (and alarm the people behind you), and when the engine rpm goes to near 1k, shift to neutral, and come to a stop; if the light changes to green when you are in neutral, you can shift into the proper gear, depends on your speed.

Making a fast turn using the heel toe technique is not easy. I haven't been able to do it well.

here's a write up from a Miata driver:

Beginning Heel-toe downshifting

By Kevin Morrison

I'm not really a Qualified Expert, but I can give you a summary of how I learned the whole heel-toe thing. For those who aren't familiar with the technique, it is a technique used in manual-transmission cars when braking and downshifting to match the speed of the engine to the speed of the transmission. For example, if you are downshifting from 3rd to 2nd when taking a corner, the engine will start at say, 3500 rpm and after the downshift, will end up at say, 4300. If you don't use your right foot to blip the throttle up to 4300 before you let off the clutch, the revs will have dropped to say, 2500 rpm and the clutch/transmission will have to "drag" the engine up to the required 4300 rpm. This is usually a somewhat violent occurrence which is hard on the clutch and more importantly from the performance driving standpoint, upsets the attitude of the car, frequently breaking the rear tires loose. The heel-toe part comes in when you have to be on the brakes at the same time you want to be blipping the throttle and this is where most people get lost.

To start learning to do this, I had to realize that the transmission doesn't care what the brakes are doing. Quite by accident, I learned that I could shift the tranny while also braking for a turn. I used to have to brake until I was slow enough for the turn, get off the brakes, and then do the shift before turning in for the apex. This takes way too long and I would often end up free-wheeling through the turn with my foot on the clutch, having to wait until I could straighten out the wheels before I let off the clutch (or the car would likely spin). This made me exit the turn way too slow and way out of the power-band of the engine. Once I realized the tranny and brakes don't care about each other, I started downshifting and braking for the turn at the same time. Once that was down, all I had to do was add the throttle blip to get the revs up before completing the downshift. The trick to the heel-toe throttle blip is in learning to manipulate the gas pedal while also braking, and maintaining a constant pressure on the brake pedal to avoid upsetting the balance of the car. This part took me a good solid year to perfect.

The term 'heel-toe' is misleading because most drivers don't really use their heel, but rather use the inside and outside part of the foot. To start, sitting still, put your foot on the brake (really just the inside edge of your foot) and then try to hit the gas with the outside edge of your foot. If you can't reach it, you'll need to either move the pedals closer together, get some "racing" pedals, or wear big clown shoes. Once you're able to hit both pedals with one foot, you blip the throttle by sort of rolling your foot over onto the gas while keeping constant pressure on the brake. Once you're confident about the motion required, start practicing while slowing down in a straight line (not in traffic, though!) with your foot on the clutch. Concentrate on blipping the throttle without making the car lurch around due to uneven pressure on the brakes. Once you can do that, start doing the throttle blip on downshifts. The sequence would be like this: brakes, clutch, shift, blip, release clutch, release brakes (when appropriate). When you get good at it, the whole operation becomes like one quick motion and you'll find that you can downshift in a fraction of the time it used to take...
Most racing schools and high performance driving schools advocate "trail braking". Obviously you begin to brake before you enter a turn. You should down shift before you enter the turn (while you are braking utilizing the "heel and toe" technique). As you begin to turn and as you are going through the turn ease off on the brakes but do not release them fully. This keeps weight planted on the front wheels and helps the car turn. This technique can "rotate" the car by forcing mild oversteer (trail brake rotation). As you progress through the turn continue to brake and then make a transition to "maintenance throttle". As you exit the turn and the car is pointed into the straight begin to accellerate. At no point should you be coasting, this can upset the balance of the car.
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      02-26-2008, 11:51 AM   #178
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How about dealing with hills?

I'm new to MT and my car is due in a month and a half. There is a major hill outside of my office that I will be dealing with every day as I pull out of the parking lot.

My concern is the proper form for dealing with this. I've seen discussions where people talk about burning out your clutch on a hill. I noticed a bit of a burning clutch smell after I practiced on this hill with a friend's car (after 2 stalls).

Can someone weigh in on exactly what you should be doing when stopped in the middle of a steep hill and how best to start (e.g., clutch in or out with the car in neutral, etc.)? TIA
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      02-26-2008, 12:17 PM   #179
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there's BMW hill assist that will stop the car for you from rolling for like 2 seconds which should be enough.

What you can do also is:
1. pull e brake
2. clutch in and put in gear
3. start releasing the clutch with giving gas (a bit more than usual)
4. when the car wants to move release the e-brake
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      02-26-2008, 12:21 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantis View Post
there's BMW hill assist that will stop the car for you from rolling for like 2 seconds which should be enough.

What you can do also is:
1. pull e brake
2. clutch in and put in gear
3. start releasing the clutch with giving gas (a bit more than usual)
4. when the car wants to move release the e-brake
What are people referring to when they talk about using the clutch to hold one on a hill (resulting in shorter clutch life)?

I get the concept of stopping on the hill, putting the brake on and getting off the clutch until it looks like cars are about to get moving, then putting the clutch in and moving to first and giving gas, but not sure that I understand what people mean by when they talk about using the clutch to "hold" the car on the hill.
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      02-26-2008, 12:38 PM   #181
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say the car wants to roll back, and you want to take off like you normally do on regular roads. at some point the car is going to stop rolling back, there's that one point where you can just hold it by pushing gas and keeping the clutch semi-engaged. that's bad
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      02-26-2008, 01:52 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantis View Post
say the car wants to roll back, and you want to take off like you normally do on regular roads. at some point the car is going to stop rolling back, there's that one point where you can just hold it by pushing gas and keeping the clutch semi-engaged. that's bad
"Bad" as in you shouldn't do this for 10 seconds or bad as in it is OK to do it for 2 seconds?
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      02-26-2008, 01:53 PM   #183
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dont hold the car just to make it not roll. if you are taking off you'll have to do it for 1+ seconds, that's fine.

theres people who do it for like minutes
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      02-26-2008, 01:58 PM   #184
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haha i learned how to drive a manual on a miata... totaly different from driving a 335 manual. if you tap the clutch on the miata it is basically already on the floor

been working on my heel toe lately on my 335.... hardest part is my usualy foot placement on the gas doesnt allow for a heal toe so ive had to adjust that so i dont have to move my heal when i want to downshift
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      02-26-2008, 02:15 PM   #185
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u actually heel-toe or side-ball of foot?
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      02-26-2008, 02:17 PM   #186
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ball- side sorry but i try to keep my heal in the same place so i dont have to lift it. i find if i have to lift my heal to apply the break then i miss sometimes and then the side of my foot slips off the gas
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      02-26-2008, 02:20 PM   #187
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different cars require different positioning of foot. might be damn awkward. what i do sometimes is go on youtube and find japanese racing vids. and try to learn from them. they know how to drive... for asians anyway

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      02-26-2008, 04:35 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magillagorilla View Post
"Bad" as in you shouldn't do this for 10 seconds or bad as in it is OK to do it for 2 seconds?
2 seconds or 10 seconds, it's not good.

The "hill assist" on BMW is different. Hill assist uses the brakes to hold you still, not the clutch. On the E9x, just start on a hill like you would start off on a flat surface. The brakes continue to hold for up to 2 seconds (as long as the clutch is in), allowing you to get started off without rolling backwards at all.

On a car without hill assist, you either need to use the e-brake or be good at engaging the clutch quickly enough that you don't roll backwards much. Here's the bad thing you can do -- you can hold the clutch at the engagement point and just keep it there. Then you're holding the clutch / gas at the point where it is just engaged enough to keep you from rolling backwards, but not engaged enough to go forward. Your clutch is basically slipping the whole time, and that's what we're saying is bad. This is how you burn out a clutch. You don't have to worry about this on your E9x.
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      02-27-2008, 09:53 PM   #189
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most of you know a thing or 2 about standard shifts so if you dont mind answer me this... the shift into second veryyy rough, stiff, and made me not like to shift. anyway what i do to make this easier is while having the clutch in and shifting from first to second touch the gas then slowly release the clutch to engage in the second gear. is this bad for the tranny???
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      02-28-2008, 11:56 AM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arustik1 View Post
most of you know a thing or 2 about standard shifts so if you dont mind answer me this... the shift into second veryyy rough, stiff, and made me not like to shift. anyway what i do to make this easier is while having the clutch in and shifting from first to second touch the gas then slowly release the clutch to engage in the second gear. is this bad for the tranny???
Don't worry about it. Feathering into 2nd isn't really a bad thing to do. Slamming it into 2nd or grinding it would be worse IMO.
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      02-28-2008, 12:28 PM   #191
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What about just feathering it into the rest of the gears before letting out the clutch just for a smoother shift??
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      02-28-2008, 12:42 PM   #192
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you don need feathering at all after 2nd gear in this car.
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      02-28-2008, 12:48 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arustik1 View Post
What about just feathering it into the rest of the gears before letting out the clutch just for a smoother shift??
You mean into 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th? Feathering is feathering, it wears the clutch some. But unless you mean excessively feathering into gear, it's no big deal. Your clutch isn't meant to be completely on-off binary. To some extent, you feather every time you shift (assuming you aren't racing).

You start dragging out the feathering, and that's when you're wearing your clutch too much. If you're new to MT, it won't take long until you get the hang of doing just what you need for a smooth shift.
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      02-28-2008, 12:55 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantis View Post
you don need feathering at all after 2nd gear in this car.
I generally agree. To reconcile mantis's statement w/ mine above, I just mean unless you're racing and driving your car really hard, your leg doesn't bounce up and down like a pogo stick when you shift.

Newbies might be so afraid of "riding the clutch" they think it's got to be either on or off. While that's good advice to keep them from burning out the clutch, they should know there's always a time where you hit the clutch engagement point and you don't just pop it into gear, you are a bit more gentle with it. This only takes a split second and isn't so much like feathering into 1st gear, but I was referring to it as "feathering" nonetheless.
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      02-28-2008, 01:12 PM   #195
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      02-28-2008, 01:15 PM   #196
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Everyone brings some good points to the table but you have to realize, you can write about proper shifting techniques all day, but driving a stick is all about feel. If your shifts are smooth and your passenger doesn't realize that you have a stick, then you are doing it right. If their head snaps back and forth like a bobble head doll, you're doing something wrong. If you get out of your car and something smells burnt, you're doing it wrong.
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      02-28-2008, 01:23 PM   #197
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yes it's all about balance! when i first started learning i would ditch the clutch too quick, so engine bay can get fucked, but if i used clutch too much clutch would be worn out... all about feel and balance!
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      02-28-2008, 03:32 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BK View Post
You mean into 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th? Feathering is feathering, it wears the clutch some. But unless you mean excessively feathering into gear, it's no big deal. Your clutch isn't meant to be completely on-off binary. To some extent, you feather every time you shift (assuming you aren't racing).

You start dragging out the feathering, and that's when you're wearing your clutch too much. If you're new to MT, it won't take long until you get the hang of doing just what you need for a smooth shift.
I do, do it and I have been driving it for a while so I have it down, but there's always room to learn more. Good looks on the answer, I just wanted to 100% make sure that it won't be harming it because I am learning a lot on this thread!!
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