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      02-13-2008, 04:37 PM   #1
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A Tribute to the Group B rallying ere.. Fantastic

all this talk of cars and rallying, i wanted you guys (who are interested) wo watch this, fantastic.. Shame they banned them, it was far to dangerous so no wonder they did... Awesome, Awesme machines with ''REAL'' rally drivers.






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      02-13-2008, 04:47 PM   #2
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Here's a question... Are rally drivers better drivers than F1 drivers?

Rally drivers drive an unknown track, they don't know what's coming up ahead apart from their navigator giving some indication. F1 drivers drive the same track over and over again and know exactly what's coming up with no risk of hitting a tree or falling down a ravine

Of course they are both very different motorsports with different skills and driving techniques...
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      02-13-2008, 05:25 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beauforty View Post
Here's a question... Are rally drivers better drivers than F1 drivers?

Rally drivers drive an unknown track, they don't know what's coming up ahead apart from their navigator giving some indication. F1 drivers drive the same track over and over again and know exactly what's coming up with no risk of hitting a tree or falling down a ravine

Of course they are both very different motorsports with different skills and driving techniques...

Over the years many f1 drivers had a go at rallying, and were quicker....

but had more accidents due to their nature of being far more agressive.




Rallying is very different. Not racing drivers at all..

An F1 driver is going so much quicker and had to re-act much quicker, A f driver is used to WHEEL TO WHEEL battle and knows how to overtake.


Rally drivers just have good feel for surfaces

you must also remember rally cars barely go above 125mph.




For me a Circuit racing driver needs more talent to succeed. Needs to be in the genes aswell as lots of experiance karting etc.


A rally driver needs good feel and half a set of bollocks.

jim Clark was a good rally driver. Always quicker than rally drivers of that time

Just look at the race of champions

always won by a racing driver, even in a rally drivers machinery.
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      02-13-2008, 05:26 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dxb335d View Post
all this talk of cars and rallying, i wanted you guys (who are interested) wo watch this, fantastic.. Shame they banned them, it was far to dangerous so no wonder they did... Awesome, Awesme machines with ''REAL'' rally drivers.

Group B was really a step too far. yes the cars were technologically superior, but the costs had spiralled and they were just too damned fast for the roads and tyres under them. It was a great shame that competitors and spectators lost their lives before the rules were changed.

Group A served well for many years to provide a safer and more level playing field, and ultimately produced cars that were just as spectacular, but became too stale and restrictive for anyone who didn't produce a turbocharged four wheel drive car.

WRC cars are great, and the format that allows any manufacturer to produce a car to the regs (eg: Suzuki), but the format is getting old. The cars are too technical and don't need the best driver, the driver however, must have the best car to win.

Rallying has lost the connection to the road cars which is fine, but it is also loosing the spectacle that it was through the 70s, 80s and 90s. The cars are neat and tidy through the stages unless they make a mistake. I'd rather watch a club rally with a few Mk2 escorts and the like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beauforty View Post
Here's a question... Are rally drivers better drivers than F1 drivers?

Rally drivers drive an unknown track, they don't know what's coming up ahead apart from their navigator giving some indication. F1 drivers drive the same track over and over again and know exactly what's coming up with no risk of hitting a tree or falling down a ravine

Of course they are both very different motorsports with different skills and driving techniques...
In todays era of electronically controlled infinitenly tunable cars (both F1 and rally) I'd say it's difficult to tell. The technological advances have tamed the beasts so that any reasonably talented driver can perform to a pretty high level. The pendulum has swung and it's now more about the car than the driver, which is a real shame.

Occasionally a driver or two will stand out from the crowd, but only when they have the right kit. The days of a driver in a lesser car driving the wheels off it to put it amongst the big boys are long gone.

I reckon you could say that rally drivers are either the braver, or the more stupid (depending on your take on it) considering the roads and tracks that they drive on vs the complaints that F1 drivers make if they don't have enough gravel in case they run out of talent.
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      02-13-2008, 05:27 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dxb335d View Post
...

Kim Clark was a good rally driver. Always quicker than rally drivers of that time

...
Slight typo Carlos.
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      02-13-2008, 05:29 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjh93sa View Post
Group B was really a step too far. yes the cars were technologically superior, but the costs had spiralled and they were just too damned fast for the roads and tyres under them. It was a great shame that competitors and spectators lost their lives before the rules were changed.

Group A served well for many years to provide a safer and more level playing field, and ultimately produced cars that were just as spectacular, but became too stale and restrictive for anyone who didn't produce a turbocharged four wheel drive car.

WRC cars are great, and the format that allows any manufacturer to produce a car to the regs (eg: Suzuki), but the format is getting old. The cars are too technical and don't need the best driver, the driver however, must have the best car to win.

Rallying has lost the connection to the road cars which is fine, but it is also loosing the spectacle that it was through the 70s, 80s and 90s. The cars are neat and tidy through the stages unless they make a mistake. I'd rather watch a club rally with a few Mk2 escorts and the like.



In todays era of electronically controlled infinitenly tunable cars (both F1 and rally) I'd say it's difficult to tell. The technological advances have tamed the beasts so that any reasonably talented driver can perform to a pretty high level. The pendulum has swung and it's now more about the car than the driver, which is a real shame.

Occasionally a driver or two will stand out from the crowd, but only when they have the right kit. The days of a driver in a lesser car driving the wheels off it to put it amongst the big boys are long gone.

I reckon you could say that rally drivers are either the braver, or the more stupid (depending on your take on it) considering the roads and tracks that they drive on vs the complaints that F1 drivers make if they don't have enough gravel in case they run out of talent.

but there driftint 75mph round a bend, not heading towards a tyre barrier at over 200mph.


Rally drivers have NEVER faired well in racing competition. Racing drivers do fair well in rally competition.
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      02-13-2008, 05:51 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by dxb335d View Post
Just look at the race of champions

always won by a racing driver, even in a rally drivers machinery.
Only since the move from Gran Canaria and from dirt to tarmac, until then it was a rally drivers whitewash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dxb335d View Post
but there driftint 75mph round a bend, not heading towards a tyre barrier at over 200mph.


Rally drivers have NEVER faired well in racing competition. Racing drivers do fair well in rally competition.
Louise Aitken Walker? 5th in the BTCC in '89 beating Frank Sytner and Tim Harvey?

Colin McRae at LeMans in 2004? 3rd in class and 11th overall.

I can't think of an F1 driver who tried a WRC event, except Martin Brundle, who ran steadily until crashing out of the RAC.

At the end of the day the disciplines are so different that it is difficult to say which category is best. They each attract their own sort of driver who are immensely fast and talented in their own sport. Long gone are the days of drivers competing in Grand Prix and Rally as each is too specialised for someone to train to be the best at both.
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      02-13-2008, 06:02 PM   #8
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Some one who is a rally driver aint ever going to be a racing driver. They have not grown up the cut throat world of close competative overtaking competition.
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      02-13-2008, 06:41 PM   #9
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Rubbish!

They won't make it because it isn't their passion, just like a racing driver will dabble in rallying for some fun, but will never make the switch because it isn't what drives them and they know that they aren't cut out to be in the top 1% of that sport.

Different things drive different people. In the world of motorcycle racing there are those who will go to the Northwest 200, the TT and Macau, just as there are those who won't, either because they don't like the risks, or because they know that they won't be in that top 1%. The road racing riders are brilliant on the roads, but most can't make the switch to succesfull circuit racing, each is just too specialised.

All motorsport is so specialised these days that the very top drivers are pigeonholed at a very early stage in their career and can't switch to another sport and be a world beater.
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      02-13-2008, 06:46 PM   #10
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A rally driver has not grown up in the competative close world of circuit racing matt. think about it... he aint overtakensomeone for years..

A kid who has circuit competition in his blood since 8 years old now in f1, he knows how to ous skyche a guy along side him at 200mph, knows how to outbrake someone when and where and how, a rally driver has no clue..

but for sure he can set a car up to drift well round a gravel covered bend at 70mph.

WHICH im very sure MSC could do very easily.
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      02-13-2008, 06:49 PM   #11
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So legends can take the form of cars and people alike.
Nice vid.

I see what you mean Carlos by saying that circuit racing is the more talent-orientated motorsport. The fact that the drivers are accustomed to the track hides the reality of the sheer fatigue imposed on them from the numerous laps (F1 and more noticeably, LeMans)!

Its tough to call when deciding which is more tiring, Rallying or F1?
Although the cars in F1 are capable of massive speed, they are purpose built for tracks and started life with one use in mind. They can be tested to their top speed, their handling all in easy to replicate environments (all tarmac-based).

Rally cars do start out as ordinary cars, but the level of modification does put into question how much of the original car is actually left! The stages themselves may be shorter than F1 races, but surely the concentration needed in that short time is HUGE-MUNGOUS!!

Perhaps in F1, drivers need much more finesse in their skill, as you guys have mentioned. It probably goes with the theory that the longer n faster the sport, its the smaller, little things you do that make a big difference!

Rally will always be the more fun to watch sport to me! But Hamilton did stir it up last season!

Quote:
Originally Posted by beauforty View Post
Of course they are both very different motorsports with different skills and driving techniques...


My 2 pence...


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      02-13-2008, 06:56 PM   #12
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Racing is Racing, Rallying is not that.... There is no man against man as such, no wheel to wheel combat.. Just a race against the clock..

A guy to produce the same lap time lap after lap is a talented man.. A guy who can fight his way thru a field of racing drivers is a racing driver and derserves much applaud.


A rally driver is talented in a different way. But is not a racing driver.

as much as you think there all out ballistic there not, if they were they would stack much more. There is a 5% reserve there, for incase when it goes wrong in the bend. they set up the car very well for the next bend first on instinct secondly on the co drivers notes. Its more of dancing/balancing act than out and out raw ballistic pace.
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      02-13-2008, 07:21 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dxb335d View Post
A rally driver is talented in a different way. But is not a racing driver.

as much as you think there all out ballistic there not, if they were they would stack much more. There is a 5% reserve there, for incase when it goes wrong in the bend. they set up the car very well for the next bend first on instinct secondly on the co drivers notes. Its more of dancing/balancing act than out and out raw ballistic pace.

Maybe by being allowed to race lap-after-lap-after-lap, they get the 'chance' to drive that little bit quicker on every lap...
Its all about practice, the practice that an F1 driver gets pre-race and during the race could be seen as the reason why they can exploit the "raw ballistic pace".
From what i understand of rallying, the driver and co-driver get a pre-rally 'walkthrough' of the stage, driving slowly through the stage. IF this is the only familiarisation the driver and co-driver get of the course, then I must give equal props to them as I do to F1 drivers!
There is risk in both motorsports, just different types of risk!

Being the large, more commercialised, multi-billion dollar sport that is F1, I always get the impression that its more difficult to be introduced into the sport. Hence the impression that only a select few can become aspiring F1 drivers... but times have changed.

I see it as being more difficult these days to distinguish a natural born champion in both the sports, as the skill n effort in producing cars is THAT much more critical to success as teams continually try to stretch boundaries, beyond the abilities of the one behind the wheel.


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      02-13-2008, 07:29 PM   #14
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You bemuse me.

Why do Rally drivers keep 5% in reserve but "racers" don't ?

And about consistency of lapping ? you are away with the fairies. In the WRC these guys, in different cars, can race across 10 miles or more of broken surface in varying weather conditions and emerge with the same time. Raw ballistic pace ?? ... tell that to Colin [RIP], you muppet. Where do you think the term "Maximum attack" originates ?

I was there in Kielder, in the freezing dark, when the Group B cars came by. Banks of lights punching the icy, foggy air. Exhausts bellowing, banging and popping. Standing literally a few feet from a fire breathing angry monster as it rockets through the night, stones flying like bullets, slipstream tugging at your jacket - leaving a heady aroma of expensive fuels and hot metal lingering in the air. A true experience.

I know quite a few people who go rallying - and know the dedication, commitment and talent they have. They do a lot more multi-tasking than any circuit racer.

Your insular experience of racing makes your ramblings only expose your utter myopic ignorance of the flip side.

D.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dxb335d View Post
Racing is Racing, Rallying is not that.... There is no man against man as such, no wheel to wheel combat.. Just a race against the clock..

A guy to produce the same lap time lap after lap is a talented man.. A guy who can fight his way thru a field of racing drivers is a racing driver and derserves much applaud.


A rally driver is talented in a different way. But is not a racing driver.

as much as you think there all out ballistic there not, if they were they would stack much more. There is a 5% reserve there, for incase when it goes wrong in the bend. they set up the car very well for the next bend first on instinct secondly on the co drivers notes. Its more of dancing/balancing act than out and out raw ballistic pace.
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      02-13-2008, 08:15 PM   #15
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Exactly, they are two completely diferent arts which I have been saying all along. What I disagree with is your assertion (Carlos) that circuit drivers are better or more focussed. The raw talent in car control of any driver at the top in either discipline means that they could be above average in the other discipline. On raw talent they could be 90% there, but that last 10% takes traning commitment and a passion for that form of sport.

To compare the two is like comparing baseball and golf.. they both use a bat to hit a ball so who's best?

How much do you think he had in hand here?

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      02-14-2008, 02:20 AM   #16
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Carlos

Nice find.

Group B cars weren't dangerous as such and were banned as a knee jerk reaction to unfortunate incidents. The control and behaviour of spectators on some world championship rallies was totally unacceptable and accidents were bound to happen irrespective of the cars if it continued. In fact the Group B cars were slower than todays WRC cars.

There is no doubt that they were very spectacular though and a fantastic experience to drive. Their production in small numbers allowed inovative design and engineering and had the amount of automotive electronics used today been available then who knows how much better they would have been.

Regards

Chris
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      02-14-2008, 04:04 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_3 View Post
You bemuse me.

Why do Rally drivers keep 5% in reserve but "racers" don't ?

And about consistency of lapping ? you are away with the fairies. In the WRC these guys, in different cars, can race across 10 miles or more of broken surface in varying weather conditions and emerge with the same time. Raw ballistic pace ?? ... tell that to Colin [RIP], you muppet. Where do you think the term "Maximum attack" originates ?

I was there in Kielder, in the freezing dark, when the Group B cars came by. Banks of lights punching the icy, foggy air. Exhausts bellowing, banging and popping. Standing literally a few feet from a fire breathing angry monster as it rockets through the night, stones flying like bullets, slipstream tugging at your jacket - leaving a heady aroma of expensive fuels and hot metal lingering in the air. A true experience.

I know quite a few people who go rallying - and know the dedication, commitment and talent they have. They do a lot more multi-tasking than any circuit racer.

Your insular experience of racing makes your ramblings only expose your utter myopic ignorance of the flip side.

D.

+1!

F1 is driving on tarmac with massive amounts of grip, and the car doing half of the driving for them!

A rally driver can go over several diffenent surfaces including tarmac, ice snow and gravel, all during one stage! Now that takes a driver to be at the top of his game to be quick.
He may also have to get out and change his own tyre half way through the stage!
Could you see Alonso and co doing that?
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      02-14-2008, 06:27 AM   #18
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Never get tired of watching these videos, these show how good the rally drivers are!

Check out the reaction times, foot work and car control.


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TKgeCQGu_ug

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HjXXUyQhPE

(not sure how to get the actual vid in the post)

Look how close they drive to the edge of cliffs, trees, buildings and the spectators!!
If they would of made proper viewing areas I don't belive they would of banned Group B cars but then if wouldn't be rallying as we all know it. Nothing like walking down the actual track they race on then watching these cars fly past while you are stood on the bank 2-3ft away from the car!!

200mph in an F1 car maybe quick but with the exception of Monaco they have run off areas and tyre walls.

Now try saying rally drivers don't drive to 100%!
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      02-14-2008, 06:57 AM   #19
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Video embedded:





To embed put the youtube video code (the bit after the v=) into the following form [u 2b]videocode[/u 2b] but miss out the spaces after the u's.
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      02-14-2008, 08:12 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjh93sa View Post
Video embedded:





To embed put the youtube video code (the bit after the v=) into the following form [u 2b]videocode[/u 2b] but miss out the spaces after the u's.
Thanks mjh
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      02-14-2008, 01:07 PM   #21
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I use to do rallying when Group B were around and boy were they f*ckin fast! You would be banging along as fast as you could go and these things were just sail pass you like you were standing still.
You got to remember that when these things were around, there were no pace notes in the UK (it was different in Europe) so you approached each stage blind. All you use to get were course notes telling you how to get from the end of one stage to the beginning of the next and thatís it. So either the navigator sat and watched as you went around the stage or you tried to second guess the possible route(s) of a stage and draw it out on the OS maps.
But what killed Group B was the spectators in Europe, they just got too close. It wasnít too bad in the UK, but the forest commission was getting very concerned on how these cars were ripping up the forest tracks.
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      02-14-2008, 01:42 PM   #22
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I forgot that it all used to be done from an OS sheet and a magnifying glass in the UK. True grit and determination!
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