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      01-22-2006, 09:15 AM   #1
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Horsepower Question for a relative newb.

With all this talk of the 335 coming to meet the challenge of the IS and G cars, I was wondering if some more 'tenured' BMW owners could fill me in.

The E46 M3 engine has somewhere in the region of 330HP. I believe the non US version has 345HP out of 3.2 litres.

Apart from the 250cc displacement, what are the key differences between that motor and that in the E90. Seems to me BMW could squeeze at least 300 out of the new motor. Cams? Redline? Compression Ratio?

Please educate me.
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      01-22-2006, 10:39 AM   #2
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E46 M3 here in the states got 333HP out of a 3.2 L at like 8,000 RPM.


Euro M3 got 343Hp out of the same 3.2L also at 8k.

differences are redlines, block and cams. It is a different engine to say the least.

its not a engine that one would want to put in a mass produced sedan.
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      01-22-2006, 11:56 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_330i
E46 M3 here in the states got 333HP out of a 3.2 L at like 8,000 RPM.


Euro M3 got 343Hp out of the same 3.2L also at 8k.

differences are redlines, block and cams. It is a different engine to say the least.

its not a engine that one would want to put in a mass produced sedan.
I'm confused. Why not? The e46 M3 is mass produced. If the e90 M3 will have an entirely new engine with more HP, why not use the previous M3 motor in an e90 sedan?
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      01-22-2006, 12:10 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksfrogman
I'm confused. Why not? The e46 M3 is mass produced. If the e90 M3 will have an entirely new engine with more HP, why not use the previous M3 motor in an e90 sedan?

not mass produced as the E90 is.

it would be a grave insult to M car owners if their engine suddenly appears in a regular BMW car.

besides the engine is not suited for just starting and going as well. Also i would assume the motor is more expensive to produce than the regular N52.
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      01-22-2006, 12:56 PM   #5
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Hmm.. I hear you and agree but I find it hard to believe that a mild cam/compression tweak on the new motor couldn't produce a reliable 280-290HP.

Tuners will find this hard because of the valvetronic/VANOS/ECM but BMW engineers could probably do it during their lunchtime game of Minesweeper.

A set of cams and an ECM reflash for say $1000? Who's in?
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      01-22-2006, 09:40 PM   #6
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if you haven't noticed BMWs inline 6s are already tweaked like hell.

i doubt cams alone would be 1k or less.

id expect them to be like 2k+
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      01-22-2006, 10:28 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_330i
it would be a grave insult to M car owners if their engine suddenly appears in a regular BMW car.
That's an interesting thought I hadn't pondered. Then again, it's all relative. If the M3 gets a V8, it will still be quicker than an e90 with the e46 M3 engine. Today's e90 is quicker than the M3s a few generations ago.

The old saying, "there's no replacement for displacement" holds generally true as the Infiniti G35 and Lexus IS350 both have 3.5L engines. Mazda will be introducing a crossover SUV (shown at the Detroit Auto Show) that will produce 244 HP. The Audi RS4 produces 420 HP. The last thing BMW needs to concern itself with is competing with it's own existing models. The real competition lies elsewhere.
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      01-23-2006, 09:05 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_330i
if you haven't noticed BMWs inline 6s are already tweaked like hell.

i doubt cams alone would be 1k or less.

id expect them to be like 2k+
Yes, a pair of cams would be more I'm sure. I paid $149 for a small block Chevy cam nwith crazy duration/lift. So $2149 for a pair of BMW cams seems reasonable. After all, they come in a box with the roundel on it
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      01-23-2006, 09:29 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveMD
Hmm.. I hear you and agree but I find it hard to believe that a mild cam/compression tweak on the new motor couldn't produce a reliable 280-290HP.

Tuners will find this hard because of the valvetronic/VANOS/ECM but BMW engineers could probably do it during their lunchtime game of Minesweeper.

A set of cams and an ECM reflash for say $1000? Who's in?

Without wanting to sound too condescending, but you donīt know much about the latest technology found in modern cars such as a BMW E90 do you? The days of hot cams are long over. Most modern performance engines have some sort of variable valve timing. Have had such for years.

On an N52 engine you have double Vanos. So both the intake and the output camshaft get more or less fully variable timing by rotating the camshaft relative to the crank hydraulically. Thus the ECU can give the combustion chamber a soft cam profile for low revs thus producing higher troque and sharp cam timing for higher revs.

Plus the N52 also has Valvetronic meaning the lift of the valves is fully variable (there comes the bigger lift your hot cam used to provide).

Thus a different cam could not really improve much on a double vanos valvetronic engine. It basically allready has the hottest cam thats possible while compensating the ill efects a hot cam used to have (erratic idle, little torque at low revs) through lots of hydraulics and electronic gadgetery.

As for a compression tweak: Well the N52, again like most modern performance engines, allready runs at the maximim compression it possibly can without uncontrolled (early) combustions. in fact it wouldnīt last a thousand miles if it were to run with its maximum settings without the aid of a knock sensor (which detects early combustions) that is used to allign the ignition along the maximum ignition retard the current fuel allows. Raise the compression on such an engine and youīll simply get the knock sensor calling for help and the ignition turning back

Again, your talking old school. In the early days, you could raise the hp of an engine by rasing the compresion and advancing the igintion if you made sure ythe upgraded engine was run on high quality (high octane) fuel.

I really donīt want to step on your shoes here, but I think your idea of an engine improvement is stuck a bit in the past. Hot cams are fine for more hp from a 64 Chevy small block.
On an N52 engine things get a little more complicated...
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      01-23-2006, 09:32 AM   #10
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[quote=ksfrogman]

The old saying, "there's no replacement for displacement" holds generally true as the Infiniti G35 and Lexus IS350 both have 3.5L engines. QUOTE]


Isn't that the truth.

The E46M3 engine has had bearing issues throughout it's history. Infact BMW issued various recalls to address this issue as well as extended the warranty on the engines.

On that note, there are many more E46M3's that haven't had a problem and some of those are tracked regularly.

I've heard all sorts of things about the S54 engine: Weak rev limiter, valve impressions on the cylinder heads on SMG cars, repeated spun bearings on some engines, BMW initially not wanting to honor blown engines that HAD the recall bearing work done. The S54 engine isn't one I'd want in my BMW, if I was planning to own it past warranty.

Another thing. BMW goes to great lengths to keep a previous model from becoming obsolete. IMO they do this because #1 they don't want to piss off current model owners (Imagine buying a '05 E46M3 only to find out in 1 yr a E90 Coupe will arrive on shores sporting the same HP as your $50K+ automobile). #2 BMW has considerable exposure on the leasing side. They still want to be able to sell all those M3's coming off lease without having to resort to steep discounts.

The E46ZHP is a perfect example. The ZHP has almost the same HP as the E36M3. BMW offerred the ZHP in Spring of 2003, and that was 4yrs into the life cycle of the E46. Perfect timing to keep E36M3's owners from feeling slighted, and all those E36M3's had probably washed out of the lease program by then.

Just my $.02
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      01-23-2006, 09:37 AM   #11
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socom

good points. esp. the leasing part. BMW has a lot of value in their leased cars. Theyīll certainyl take that into account in their model planing.
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      01-23-2006, 10:51 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tierfreund
Without wanting to sound too condescending, but you donīt know much about the latest technology found in modern cars such as a BMW E90 do you?
Well you do. Go back and read my previous post. Maybe I should check my sense of humor in at the door.
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      01-23-2006, 10:53 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveMD
Well you do. Go back and read my previous post. Maybe I should check my sense of humor in at the door.
Iīm sorry. I really thought you were serious.
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