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      02-19-2008, 11:53 PM   #1
SP335i
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BMW the New Porsche!

I saw this on Autospies.com They're known to be more biased...but whadya guys think??? lol

http://www.autospies.com/news/Is-BMW...Porsche-26703/


"In the old days, there was everyone else and then there was Porsche.

Their brand had a mystique and they lived up to their slogan, 'There IS no substitute'.

But the more I see what they're doing today, I see them missing the boat in the sweet spot that they compete in and I'm not so sure I see a bright future for the brand.

Today's announcement of Peter Schwarzenbauer heading over to Audi only reinforced my theory.

I've had the chance to spend some time with him at Porsche and I can tell you he is a smart dude.

You don't leave the position he had for Audi unless what he saw coming over the next few years was less than impressive in his eyes.

The Boxster/Cayenne sales are weak, the Cayenne isn't exactly flying off the shelves and people I've talked to who have seen the upcoming Panamera say its nice but not mind-blowing compared to cars like the M5, E63, S6, etc.

Sure they have some great rides like the GT2 but I'm referring to the everyday cars in the volume segments like the Boxster/Cayman/Cayenne/911's.

I don't see the future for them looking so rosy there.

What's happening there is the antithesis of what's going on at BMW.

In every segment where the two are competing against each other BMW is simply kicking their asses.

In products and in consumer mind share.

If you ask me, BMW is the NEW Porsche.

Right now, BMW could carry the moniker 'There is no substitute' better than Porsche in my opinion.

M5, 650, 135i, 335, M Coupe, X6...and the list keeps growing.

Across the board and sales and street cred will back me up.

Do you agree?

Is the Porsche magic diminishing?

Is it more impressive to own a BMW today than a Porsche?

What recommendations would you make to the next Exec that takes over for Schwarzenbauer?"
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      02-19-2008, 11:56 PM   #2
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      02-20-2008, 12:00 AM   #3
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Right on!

The day they crippled the Cayman in favor of evolving the dead-old 911 is the day that I gave up on Porsche.

Panamera is a joke. Cayenne is a joke. The 911s are old and have the engine in the wrong place and have been getting their heads handed to them in the place that Porsche should care about most, racing.

The only place where Porsche still does well in racing is the LMP2 class and the GT3 class (where they field most of the cars on the track given their customer racing program).

Writing is on the wall, change or die.

On the other hand, BMW needs to take racing much more seriously. F1 is nice and all but they need to have a customer program like Porsche's. Imagine buying a M3 GTR from BMW directly??? This will kill the 911 quicker than anything else.
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      02-20-2008, 12:01 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by SP335i View Post
...but whadya guys think???
When Porsche introduced the Cayenne I thought they had lost their marbles. Not so.

Press release: "Porsche tops its record-breaking sales figures for North America in 2007"

http://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutpors...&id=2008-01-03
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      02-20-2008, 12:56 AM   #5
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dumb article.. it has no idea what they are talking about. Porche is achieving record high in sales and profits year after year since the Caynne is introduced. it's not just in the US, but all over the world. like it or not, the Porche SUV is actually what's making Porche a player in the car market. I forgot where i read it but Porche has the highest profit margin per car (yes, higher than Ferrari, lambo, merc, etc..).. BMW is a distance second.

Nobody is replacing Porche. in fact, due to the success of the SUV (hate this word for associating with Porche??), they have more $$ to actually make additional models like Caymen and Panamera, as well as improve on the current models and it's evolutions (notice better interior and technologies used on new 911s??).. i think they are even coming out with a smaller size SUV pretty soon.

Another fact is Porche is making so much profit, they are actually the highest share holder of VW Group (consist of Audi, Lambo, Bently, Bugatti, etc..).
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      02-20-2008, 01:54 AM   #6
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The fact that they're selling so many more cars per year because of their diversified model lineup and their ridiculously high profit margin without losing their customer base means they'll be here for a while, and it'll probably stay that way.

Hopefully I can get a Cayman S next after the 335i lease is up
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      02-20-2008, 02:41 AM   #7
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come on guys...we are all car lovers....we are talkin Porsche here....not Ford....i love my 335...but gang....gotta still love the caymen S, 911.....gt2.....gt3....and the crazy carrara GT...they make a wicked cars!!
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      02-20-2008, 02:53 AM   #8
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err ill take cayman S over 335 anyday
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      02-20-2008, 02:55 AM   #9
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There is no Substitute....

nuff said
no BMW is a Porsche...
I've driven the Ms, Zs, 7s, 5s, 3s.. whatever BMW has made..
none come close to the feeling u get in a porsche
none are timeless like a Porsche
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      02-20-2008, 02:55 AM   #10
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I don't get how higher BMW sales makes it more impressive to own a BMW than a Porsche? Shouldn't it actually make BMW like every other car on the street? I would think Porsche is a new BMW as BMW is no longer the luxury brand it was 15 years ago, and Porsches are getting way more common..
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      02-20-2008, 03:45 AM   #11
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Actually, the article has it backwards. Wendelin Weideking's plan to diversify the Porsche line-up was inspired by BMW, and he used BMW as his business model for Porsche's current success.

Ironically, BMW's M3 is the car that fits Porsche's original design brief for the 911. Originally, the 911 was intended to be a practical daily driver that a middle-management exec with a young family could take to the track on weekend; it was intended to be affordable, reliable, and be able to carry two adults and two children under 10. Over time, the 911 has evolved into an expensive toy that few middle-management types could afford, while the M3 fills the original niche perfectly.
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      02-20-2008, 04:56 AM   #12
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Stupid poorly written article.

"Peter Schwarzenbauer is a cool dude"

Nuff said, guys an idiot.
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      02-20-2008, 05:00 AM   #13
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this has as much credibility as anything I would write

blogs are just that... blogs...

when did they become sources for reliable news
I'd hate to see the day when my kid (assuming I have any) will quote blogs in his school research papers
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      02-20-2008, 05:11 AM   #14
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It's from Autospies. Enough said.
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      02-20-2008, 07:26 AM   #15
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Over time, the 911 has evolved into an expensive toy that few middle-management types could afford, while the M3 fills the original niche perfectly.
The difference in MSRP between the M3 and the 911 is $15,275. That middle management type could sacrifice an extra Starbucks latte and slice of coffee cake daily and drive the 911.
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      02-20-2008, 08:23 AM   #16
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I love our BMWs, but they're simply not porsches. The 911 is a spectacular car that I doubt BMW will ever have a true competitor against. Keep in mind though, that competing directly against the 911 is not one of BMW's primary objectives. My guess is that if BMW wanted to build a true competitor, they could do very well. That's simply not their bread & butter though.

BTW, did that article happen to mention that Porsche has the highest profit margin of any car manufacturer several times over?
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      02-20-2008, 08:34 AM   #17
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The day they crippled the Cayman in favor of evolving the dead-old 911 is the day that I gave up on Porsche.
This is a major miss on Porsche's part.

Fortunately I've discovered the aftermarket addresses the biggest weakness of the Cayman S relatively cheaply, LSD with the very reliable Quaife @ $1700 installed. Power of the S can pretty easily be bumped into the 345 range with softronic flash + plenum. And with that you have a car faster around a track then almost anything short of the GT range. I hear you that Porsche should have done it themselves.

And thus I jumped ship into a Cayman S

As for business models, Porsche just bought VW/Audi/Lamborghini/etc... I think Porsche knows what they are doing to have so much extra cash to be able to buy such a major manufacturing group.

Last edited by sdiver68; 02-20-2008 at 12:09 PM.
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      02-20-2008, 09:10 AM   #18
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This is a major miss on Porsche's part.

Fortunately I've discovered the aftermarket addresses the biggest weakness of the Cayman S relatively cheaply, LSD with the very reliable Quaife @ $1700 installed. Power of the S can pretty easily be bumped into the 345 range with softronic flash + plenum. And with that you have a car faster around a track then almost anything short of the GT range. I hear you that Porsche should have done it themselves.

And thus I jumped ship into a Cayman S

As for business models, Porsche just bought VW/Audi/Lambnorghini/etc... I think Porsche knows what they are doing.

My good friend, Ernie from Mantis Racing, races one of the few Cayman S in the PCA events....he regularly kills every 911 up to a well driven GT3.

Just imagine if they put the GT3 powerplant in the Cayman with LSD?? Good bye 911


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      02-20-2008, 09:43 AM   #19
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If Porsche sold like BMW, it wouldn't be porsche. Most of your upper level BMW shoppers are image shoppers. Your average porsche buyer is likely not. Comparing sales numbers to see who is better is ridiculous, or else TL is better than the 3 series and a yukon is better than an X5.

On another note, the cayman s is a really nice car, but those of you who think its THAT much superior to a 911 C2S are nuts. It's not like the 911 has gone to pot like a lot of you make it out to be. Yes, the base 911 is kinda weak, but the 997 C2S is one of the best porsche's ever made. Granted, the engine in the back configuration might not be "right," but it's distinctively Porsche, and it provides a driving dynamic that you cannot get anywhere else. If Porsche can build track monsters like the GT3 and the GT2 off a RR platform that has been proven time and time again, and have done so for decades, it's kind of outlandish to call the whole thing "wrong" and proclaim the Cayman S the best porsche.

Yes, a cayman s with all the performance trimmings that the 911 gets would be superior to the 911, but to say porsche made a MISTAKE by not doing it is kind of outlandish.

I'm not really sure how BMW even competes? With the exception of the M Coupe and M Roadster, all of BMW's cars are based off luxury coupes and sedans.

Compare a similary priced M6 to a 997 C2S at the track and this is what happens:
http://fastestlaps.com/index.php?pag...=458be6dc37c65
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      02-20-2008, 10:15 AM   #20
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Just to add some track test numbers to the discussion, 135i vs. Cayman from Fifth Gear this week:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4483
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      02-20-2008, 10:18 AM   #21
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Quote:
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On another note, the cayman s is a really nice car, but those of you who think its THAT much superior to a 911 C2S are nuts. It's not like the 911 has gone to pot like a lot of you make it out to be. Yes, the base 911 is kinda weak, but the 997 C2S is one of the best porsche's ever made. Granted, the engine in the back configuration might not be "right," but it's distinctively Porsche, and it provides a driving dynamic that you cannot get anywhere else. If Porsche can build track monsters like the GT3 and the GT2 off a RR platform that has been proven time and time again, and have done so for decades, it's kind of outlandish to call the whole thing "wrong" and proclaim the Cayman S the best porsche.

Yes, a cayman s with all the performance trimmings that the 911 gets would be superior to the 911, but to say porsche made a MISTAKE by not doing it is kind of outlandish.
I hear what you are saying, and the 997 GT's are great track cars and still the benchmark.

However, cannot dismiss the inherent advantages of lighter weight and mid-engine dynamics on the same chassis for pure track work. When even Porsche admits that the Cayman S with an LSD is faster than the 997S on most tracks, and the same reports come rolling in from track days and motorjournalist comparos all across the world, it makes you go hmmmm.....
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      02-20-2008, 10:22 AM   #22
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Just to add some track test numbers to the discussion, 135i vs. Cayman from Fifth Gear this week:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4483
FWIW, not an S.
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