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      02-20-2008, 10:31 AM   #23
ZBMW
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I drive BMW's because they hold lots of luggage, if needed, go like stink, if needed, are a decent value for the performance given and are very reliable.
My brother drives a Boxter because it is cool and girls look at him when he drives around campus. He doesn't care that it is temperamental, impractical, expensive to fix and overpriced.
Two different markets that really don't overlap except maybe in performance. Let Porsche do their thing and BMW do theirs.
End of arguement.
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      02-20-2008, 11:05 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
FWIW, not an S.
And FWIW the 135i is not an M.

Cayman S is at a different pricepoint. Cayman is already significantly higher than 135i, so that was the comparison.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Porshce, just wanted to show some actual side-by-side test results.
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      02-20-2008, 12:07 PM   #25
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And FWIW the 135i is not an M.

Cayman S is at a different pricepoint. Cayman is already significantly higher than 135i, so that was the comparison.
True!
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      02-20-2008, 02:56 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by TheAcAvenger View Post
If Porsche sold like BMW, it wouldn't be porsche. Most of your upper level BMW shoppers are image shoppers. Your average porsche buyer is likely not. Comparing sales numbers to see who is better is ridiculous, or else TL is better than the 3 series and a yukon is better than an X5.
If Porsche sold like BMW, they wouldn't have had to battle bankruptcy every 5 years, which is what Weideking is working towards. No company can survive selling only sports cars - Ferrari didn't make it, Lamborghini didn't make it, and Porsche damned near didn't make it on numerous occasions. The Cayenne and Panamera are key to keeping the company alive, along with their new manufacturing techniques (just-in-time inventory and major parts-sharing between the 911 and Boxster platforms).

As far as BMW shoppers being image shoppers, while Porsche shoppers are enthusiasts - dream on, ya crazy kid. I've owned 3 Porsches, been in numerous forums, and was a PCA member for years - posers abound in both segments. Most Porsche enthusiasts complain that since the 996 arrived, you've got lots more posers and fewer enthusiasts as the cars are now softer and easier to drive.

Besides that, a lot of Porsche owners have BMWs as their daily drivers. You know why Porsche built the Cayenne? They discovered that the most common 2nd car for a 911 owner was a BMW X5. I bought my first BMW because so many of my Porsche buddies recommended them. The two groups naturally have a lot of overlap - both marques attract driving enthusiasts.

As far as the Cayman/911 debate, it's as simple as this. Most people like to think of Porsche as the ultimate sports car company, a group of great people determined to make the absolute best sports car they can. And the existence of the Cayman makes such dreams turn to ashes, with a cold hard slap in the face. Because the Cayman could obviously outperform the 911, but Porsche holds it back because the latter car is the flagship and they can charge more for it. By doing so, Porsche makes a joke of two of their greatest legacies: their reputation for engineering great cars, and the 911's grand history is compromised by its status as a figurehead kept on top by the marketing department instead of the engineering team.
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      02-20-2008, 03:57 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by epbrown View Post
If Porsche sold like BMW, they wouldn't have had to battle bankruptcy every 5 years, which is what Weideking is working towards. No company can survive selling only sports cars - Ferrari didn't make it, Lamborghini didn't make it, and Porsche damned near didn't make it on numerous occasions. The Cayenne and Panamera are key to keeping the company alive, along with their new manufacturing techniques (just-in-time inventory and major parts-sharing between the 911 and Boxster platforms).

As far as BMW shoppers being image shoppers, while Porsche shoppers are enthusiasts - dream on, ya crazy kid. I've owned 3 Porsches, been in numerous forums, and was a PCA member for years - posers abound in both segments. Most Porsche enthusiasts complain that since the 996 arrived, you've got lots more posers and fewer enthusiasts as the cars are now softer and easier to drive.

Besides that, a lot of Porsche owners have BMWs as their daily drivers. You know why Porsche built the Cayenne? They discovered that the most common 2nd car for a 911 owner was a BMW X5. I bought my first BMW because so many of my Porsche buddies recommended them. The two groups naturally have a lot of overlap - both marques attract driving enthusiasts.

As far as the Cayman/911 debate, it's as simple as this. Most people like to think of Porsche as the ultimate sports car company, a group of great people determined to make the absolute best sports car they can. And the existence of the Cayman makes such dreams turn to ashes, with a cold hard slap in the face. Because the Cayman could obviously outperform the 911, but Porsche holds it back because the latter car is the flagship and they can charge more for it. By doing so, Porsche makes a joke of two of their greatest legacies: their reputation for engineering great cars, and the 911's grand history is compromised by its status as a figurehead kept on top by the marketing department instead of the engineering team.
this forum really needs a reputation system

because I would like to +rep you.
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      02-20-2008, 04:23 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZBMW View Post
I drive BMW's because they hold lots of luggage, if needed, go like stink, if needed, are a decent value for the performance given and are very reliable.
My brother drives a Boxter because it is cool and girls look at him when he drives around campus. He doesn't care that it is temperamental, impractical, expensive to fix and overpriced.
Two different markets that really don't overlap except maybe in performance. Let Porsche do their thing and BMW do theirs.
End of arguement.
Well said!
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      02-20-2008, 04:34 PM   #29
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Porsche Boss Collects Giant Paycheck

Thousands of Porsche workers will receive a 5,200 euros (US$7,350) bonus because of a strong increase in sales worldwide and an expected improvement in profits, the luxury sports car maker said Friday.

The Stuttgart-based company, the world's most profitable carmaker, said some 8,000 workers would receive the special bonus, which is more than the 3,500 euros they received last year.

The company said it sold 97,515 cars in fiscal year 2007, which ended July 31, with sales rising 3.4 per cent to 7.4 billion euros ($10.5 billion).

The company has not yet released its complete year-end report, but the company expects its pretax profit to be significantly more than the 2.1 billion euros it posted for 2006, CEO Wendelin Wiedeking said last month.

For a full report: http://www.autoobserver.com/2007/11/...e-boss-dr.html
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      02-20-2008, 09:47 PM   #30
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I like BMW as a company a hell of a lot more than I like Porsche.

But to say that the BMW brand is considered to be the 'new Porsche' is an absurd statement.


maybe if you only counted the //M division, it would make a bit more sense.
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      02-21-2008, 03:46 PM   #31
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Quote:
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Just curious, why?
The brand is alright, but I don't like them as a company. They only sell a handful of cars, yet each of them suffers from fundamental flaws. Moreover, from their recent moves, it seems that they don't mind disappointing enthusiasts for the sake of low-risk revenue.


On the other hand, BMW seems to always be coming out with something new and interesting. Their cars tend to be the ones I like the most in each segment (3, X5, for example). Plus, I admire how their cars are attainable by most middle class people in decent financial standing. But that's just the way I see things.


By the way, I don't know much about racing. Also, I tend to look at things from a design perspective.
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      02-21-2008, 04:32 PM   #32
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      02-21-2008, 06:36 PM   #33
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If porsche is losing sales it's their marketing and price point, not because it is lesser of a car than bmw now.
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      02-21-2008, 07:14 PM   #34
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I love my car, but I have driven a few 911's and I'm dying to own one myself. I love BMWs, but if I had the cash flow then I would be a porsche guy.
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      02-22-2008, 08:08 PM   #35
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dumb article

Porsche is doing great financially, they own something like 1/5 of the whole VW/Audi/Seat/Skoda/Lamborghini/Bentley group

Perhaps when BMW starts putting better brakes on its M cars, then it can challenge Porsche.
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      02-22-2008, 08:37 PM   #36
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dumb article

Porsche is doing great financially, they own something like 1/5 of the whole VW/Audi/Seat/Skoda/Lamborghini/Bentley group

Perhaps when BMW starts putting better brakes on its M cars, then it can challenge Porsche.
Correction, more than 50%.
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      02-22-2008, 09:24 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by epbrown View Post
If Porsche sold like BMW, they wouldn't have had to battle bankruptcy every 5 years, which is what Weideking is working towards. No company can survive selling only sports cars - Ferrari didn't make it, Lamborghini didn't make it, and Porsche damned near didn't make it on numerous occasions. The Cayenne and Panamera are key to keeping the company alive, along with their new manufacturing techniques (just-in-time inventory and major parts-sharing between the 911 and Boxster platforms).

As far as BMW shoppers being image shoppers, while Porsche shoppers are enthusiasts - dream on, ya crazy kid. I've owned 3 Porsches, been in numerous forums, and was a PCA member for years - posers abound in both segments. Most Porsche enthusiasts complain that since the 996 arrived, you've got lots more posers and fewer enthusiasts as the cars are now softer and easier to drive.

Besides that, a lot of Porsche owners have BMWs as their daily drivers. You know why Porsche built the Cayenne? They discovered that the most common 2nd car for a 911 owner was a BMW X5. I bought my first BMW because so many of my Porsche buddies recommended them. The two groups naturally have a lot of overlap - both marques attract driving enthusiasts.

As far as the Cayman/911 debate, it's as simple as this. Most people like to think of Porsche as the ultimate sports car company, a group of great people determined to make the absolute best sports car they can. And the existence of the Cayman makes such dreams turn to ashes, with a cold hard slap in the face. Because the Cayman could obviously outperform the 911, but Porsche holds it back because the latter car is the flagship and they can charge more for it. By doing so, Porsche makes a joke of two of their greatest legacies: their reputation for engineering great cars, and the 911's grand history is compromised by its status as a figurehead kept on top by the marketing department instead of the engineering team.
You kidding me, right? Porsche and bankruptcy? Do you know that Porsche is doing well enough to be able to consider BUYING OUT VW and AUDI?
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      02-22-2008, 10:40 PM   #38
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You kidding me, right? Porsche and bankruptcy? Do you know that Porsche is doing well enough to be able to consider BUYING OUT VW and AUDI?

You're kidding me, right? Have you not been reading the entire thread? I was talking about Porsche's financial history, and the fact that they're doing so well now because they finally adopt a business model they could have started following in the 1970s.
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