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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > AA Xede Dyno'd, and some questions for AA



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      02-23-2008, 08:25 PM   #23
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Yeah, even with altitude I think its a bit low. Any suggestions anyone?
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      02-23-2008, 09:55 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GAMEOVR View Post
Call, when I call.... They always answer.
OP, guess u have to try calling again, try to get an AA tech on the phone.
what they may tell u is to recheck all your connections and your install.
maybe best to do that first before calling them.

...you know what they say, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
if they do not respond correctly, or fix your problem,
then take it to the next step.

good luck
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      02-23-2008, 10:01 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a/r design View Post
Yeah, even with altitude I think its a bit low. Any suggestions anyone?
surprised u have not gotten more repsonses here.
maybe not to many AA buyers around

it's great that u are so cool about this.
i would be pissed off.
if and when u reach them, don't say your gain seems a "bit low".
they don't look to good from here.

be civil, but definitely press them for answers and a fix.
they need to satisfy you (within reason), you are the customer.
you spent over $1,000 correct?

cheers
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      02-24-2008, 01:36 AM   #26
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See my post for my results and info....

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121064
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      02-24-2008, 11:23 AM   #27
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Ill try calling again monday.
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      02-24-2008, 11:31 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a/r design View Post
Ill try calling again monday.
good luck.

btw, good idea if you read the post above you from myfirstbmw335.
check out his link and also try to read more info regarding your AA tune.
it is always good to know what u r talking about in ANY situation.
this way people cannot bullshit u as easily.

i did not read the link cause i have juicebox and have no problems, ever

my last reminder to you is do your homework........ and then call them.

good luck
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      02-24-2008, 03:52 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midlife View Post
good luck.

btw, good idea if you read the post above you from myfirstbmw335.
check out his link and also try to read more info regarding your AA tune.
it is always good to know what u r talking about in ANY situation.
this way people cannot bullshit u as easily.

i did not read the link cause i have juicebox and have no problems, ever

my last reminder to you is do your homework........ and then call them.

good luck

Great point about not having any problems. I did not put anything in my post regarding that information. Other than having questions about the resulting numbers, I have had no issues, limps, codes and etc. since installing my XEDE. So from that perspective, the product has been great...
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      02-25-2008, 03:06 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myfirstbmw335i View Post
Great point about not having any problems. I did not put anything in my post regarding that information. Other than having questions about the resulting numbers, I have had no issues, limps, codes and etc. since installing my XEDE. So from that perspective, the product has been great...

you have an AA, look at the OP's numbers.
...do you have any comment or opinion on his numbers??
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      02-25-2008, 01:29 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midlife View Post
you have an AA, look at the OP's numbers.
...do you have any comment or opinion on his numbers??

Just that based on my DYNO experience from Saturday, I feel that the computer learning from street use does not necessarily "prepare" the computer from what it's learned for the DYNO.
Since I had the luxury of doing as many runs as I needed, the XEDE and Stock Computer had a chance to "learn" together with each additional run.

If (3) total runs on a DYNO is all that you are allowed/can afford, I suggest that immediately prior to putting your car on the DYNO, find a remote straight road and do a few 3th gear to red-line runs. Or at least some 2nd gear to red-line runs if high speeds are not possible...this should help the computer get some learning time prior to your dyno runs.
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      02-25-2008, 02:24 PM   #32
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Hello,

Sorry for the delay in replying, it has been very busy over here and sometimes it can be difficult to check on all the forums.

As far as the gains they do seem to be abit on the low side. Please give us a call so we can have someone in the engineering department assist you. If you ever need to get in touch with us urgently for any reason please give us a call. We are always available Mon-Fri from 9-7 p.m. EST. Thanks
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      02-25-2008, 05:08 PM   #33
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I called in and talked to someone who thought the numbers were within rannge????
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      02-26-2008, 12:13 AM   #34
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On first glance it seems low. However, as I recall, most posted xede dyno results max around 320 HP and 370tq at the wheels. If you factor in the roughly 10% loss that appears to be incurred with our cars stock (vs ~18-20% losses for normally aspirated) at our altitude, your numbers seem to be right in there.
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      02-26-2008, 12:51 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E30M3Driver View Post
On first glance it seems low. However, as I recall, most posted xede dyno results max around 320 HP and 370tq at the wheels. If you factor in the roughly 10% loss that appears to be incurred with our cars stock (vs ~18-20% losses for normally aspirated) at our altitude, your numbers seem to be right in there.
at 5,700' lets just say 6,000' I agree with you that N/A cars lose 18% (3% for every 1000');
but i am not sure at 6,000' a turbo car loses 10%. Do you have any comment or formula for this one?
I am at 8,000 feet and am very interested in your comments.

thanks
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      02-26-2008, 01:48 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midlife View Post
at 5,700' lets just say 6,000' I agree with you that N/A cars lose 18% (3% for every 1000');
but i am not sure at 6,000' a turbo car loses 10%. Do you have any comment or formula for this one?
I am at 8,000 feet and am very interested in your comments.

thanks
I estimated that number based on the OP's stock numbers vs. the averages of other dynos at sea level backed up by another recent dyno result posted on this forum from some guys in Denver (you can search, I don't have it bookmarked). It appears based on these dyno results that at 5.5-6K feet it works out to between 9-11% loss due to altitude depending on where you think a "typical' stock car at sea level dynos. I chose 10%.

Unfortunately, that loss is more than I have expected to see. I don't have any other data to suggest what/how that curve looks like from sea level to 6K or beyond.

It's becoming pretty clear that there isn't much knowledge of how these cars and how tunes respond and/or work together at higher altitudes.

My big takeaways so far are that there is more loss at my altitude than I expected, and that this loss impacts the tunes that are set to deliver HP increases with a fixed max boost or that use ecu boost control (all except Procede). e.g. they lack a high-altitude map or ability to manipulate boost higher.
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      02-26-2008, 06:59 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E30M3Driver View Post
I estimated that number based on the OP's stock numbers vs. the averages of other dynos at sea level backed up by another recent dyno result posted on this forum from some guys in Denver (you can search, I don't have it bookmarked). It appears based on these dyno results that at 5.5-6K feet it works out to between 9-11% loss due to altitude depending on where you think a "typical' stock car at sea level dynos. I chose 10%.

Unfortunately, that loss is more than I have expected to see. I don't have any other data to suggest what/how that curve looks like from sea level to 6K or beyond.

It's becoming pretty clear that there isn't much knowledge of how these cars and how tunes respond and/or work together at higher altitudes.

My big takeaways so far are that there is more loss at my altitude than I expected, and that this loss impacts the tunes that are set to deliver HP increases with a fixed max boost or that use ecu boost control (all except Procede). e.g. they lack a high-altitude map or ability to manipulate boost higher.

what altitude are u at and what octane do you have?

regarding your comment: [i](my altitude) " impacts the tunes that are set to deliver HP increases with a fixed max boost or that use ecu boost control the (all except Procede). e.g. they lack a high-altitude map or ability to manipulate boost higher."

increasing boost work only up to a point at sea level as well as at altitude. it basically works like below. note that i am no expert by any means and that the following has been read, learned, and interpreted by me over only the last few months:

......1/ stock boost at sea level is approx 8.5 psi. the stock ecu adds up to 3psi of boost for altitude correction.
This correction (8.5 psi + 3psi) maxes out at approx 5,000 feet. so if you are at or below 5,000 feet, you should have stock or near stock whp.
......2/ ecu tunes take the altitude correction psi of 11.5 and adds another 2 to 3 psi (depending on the tune). this total boost of say 14.5 is near the max output of the turbos (regardless of altitude). increasing boost beyond this is no use and will blow the turbos.

so when a guy at sea level uses an aggressive tune, he has a full 14.5 psi of strong power. Me for example at 8,000 feet may have the same 14.5 psi, but maybe 5 or 6 or more psi of that is needed to compensate for the thinner air at very high altitude. therefore my 14.5 psi is probably equivalant to 14.5 psi - 6 = 8.5 psi at sea level. Compounding this loss is the thinner air.

less / thinner air = less gas = less power,
also less air = increased intake air temps = pulled timing.

i have aggressively fought against my high altitude and low (85 S. american) octane with the following mods. note all these mods have already been bought, and are either already installed, or will be installed shorty:

RPI ic, JB2, UR catless dps, forge DV upgrade, UR cai intake, snow performance injection kit (for water, or water & meth injection).

as i said, i am no expert, but have read extensively, and have good, knowledgeable forum friends help guide me through this process. even if a few of my assumptions/ above facts may not be 100% spot on, they should be correct in general, and i am making pretty good progress so far in my alktitude and octane battle.

hope this is informative for you.
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      02-27-2008, 11:19 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midlife View Post
[i] read, learned, and interpreted by me over only the last few months:

......1/ stock boost at sea level is approx 8.5 psi. the stock ecu adds up to 3psi of boost for altitude correction.
This correction (8.5 psi + 3psi) maxes out at approx 5,000 feet. so if you are at or below 5,000 feet, you should have stock or near stock whp.
......2/ ecu tunes take the altitude correction psi of 11.5 and adds another 2 to 3 psi (depending on the tune). this total boost of say 14.5 is near the max output of the turbos (regardless of altitude). increasing boost beyond this is no use and will blow the turbos.

hope this is informative for you.
All sound thinking and is nearly exactly what I thought UNTILL these stock and tuned dynos at altitude started showing up. Hear me out on my latest theory:

To your first point, If the ecu was compensating with an add'l 3 psi of boost at 5K feet-well that is good for nearly ~310WHP at sea level (e.g. equivalent to an SSTT because that is exactly how that works-it boosts max to around 11.5psi). Assuming just efficiency losses for the turbo operating at altitude, etc. of a conservative 5% (-16HP), that would mean a car with that boost added to it at 5000 feet could be producing around ~290WHP-or at the least producing the sea level stock numbers of around ~270WHP-these stock dynos show on ave. 40-50WHP less than the first and 20-30WHP less than stock.

So while I agree that the ecu is clearly adding boost, I don't think the full adjustment is realized until much higher. This is further confirmed beyond the dynos in that driving >6000 feet still delivers a powerful response and doesn't really start to taper off until around 9-10K+ feet. I guess it is also good news for folks that add in a tuner option that either uses the factory ECU control or approximates its max output, in that they will get some benefit at higher altitudes. How much? Hard to say since no one with one has posted dyno results until the OP here and it will vary probably by tune, and of course by actual elevation.

To your second point, this is the critical question. Tunes like SSTT are certainly not additive to the stock system-it can only adjust within the range of what the stock system is capable of to a max of about 11.5psi and it uses the stock ecu to do it. Since the JB2 performs similarly, I would guess it works similarly. Based on my research, I believe the Dinan is fixed to ~13 psi and can't go beyond that nor utilize the altitude adjustment or it would go higher (or perhaps it uses the stock system to adjust but limits the max to 13). I don't know how the Xede works, but based on the output reported I would guess it is either using the ecu to get to 11.5 psi or has maps that only allow it to go approximately that high. Based on the OP's dyno numbers, either of those would make sense. The Procede has the ability to go the highest.

So would be interested in yours and others feedback on the above.

Back to OP-Based on the above, I still think you are on the low side of the ballpark of what the AA Xede is probably able to do at altitude WHP wise, but your torque number seems really strong. I would keep pressing AA for an actual explanation of what you should be able to expect at altitude. IMO, no tuner yet has adequately described how their tunes can be expected to perform at altitude.
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      02-27-2008, 06:52 PM   #39
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Quote:
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......To your second point, this is the critical question. Tunes like SSTT are certainly not additive to the stock system-it can only adjust within the range of what the stock system is capable of to a max of about 11.5psi and it uses the stock ecu to do it. Since the JB2 performs similarly, I would guess it works similarly.
i do not know about procede, or sst, but the Juice box tunes do keep the altitude correction factor intact - i am certain of this fact. as terry (juice box owner) explained it to me, stock psi = 8.5psi, Max altitude correction = 3 psi. total both and you get 11.5psi at high altitude from the stock ecu. the juice box then adds psi on top of that.

if you are at altitude and use a juice box, depending on the juice box tune, it adds another X psi to the 11.5psi the ecu gives u at altitude.

if you are at altitude, and want more info, may i suggest you starting a high altitude thread. i say this because i wish i had alot of info re altitude in one thread when i started my study of this subject a few months ago.

cheers
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      02-27-2008, 11:01 PM   #40
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i do not know about procede, or sst, but the Juice box tunes do keep the altitude correction factor intact - i am certain of this fact. as terry (juice box owner) explained it to me, stock psi = 8.5psi, Max altitude correction = 3 psi. total both and you get 11.5psi at high altitude from the stock ecu. the juice box then adds psi on top of that.
I don't believe it. First question is how? Second, if it was additive, we should see bigger gains than we see. What we see with JB2 is representative of about 11.5 psi. Be curious if someone with a JB2 and a boost gauge can verify.

I am not knocking the JB2 and don't favor one tune over another and have none, just don't believe it based on the independently reported results data. His results are nearly identical to an SSTT and that one I know cannot go above the factory ecu limits.

Good idea on the high altitude thread. I'll think about it.
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