Injector "Failures" After Carbon Cleaning

gavronm · 10-05-2015, 11:31 AM

I've seen several posts about people getting carbon cleanings and then having injectors allegedly start going south. In the recent 335d Carbon Build-Up thread montr talks about getting 17 new injectors. That is insane. I'm afraid I'm about to be in the same boat. If you're burning through injectors please share your experience - what steps were taken, what worked and what didn't - so others (myself included) can hopefully avoid playing musical injectors.

I got my carbon cleaning a little over a month ago. Since then I've been into the dealer 3 times for a cylinder 5 zero mass adaptation fault. The first time in they reset adaptations, 2nd time they swapped the injector, and the last time they opened a case with BMWNA, reset the injector adaptations and the wheel adaptations as directed by BMWNA, kept the car for a bit to make sure the fault didn't return, and gave me back the car.

About 3 days later the SES light went on for - of course, a cylinder 5 zero mass adaptation fault. With a track day coming up I wasn't about to give them back my car, so I cleared the code and went on my way, checking the faults and resetting the lights as things came up.

This morning there were 2 codes, cylinder 5 mass adaptation and now a cylinder 1 mass adaptation.

I'm not sure what they'll do about cylinder 5 this time around but I assume they'll be giving me a new injector in 1.

My main concern is that they'll just keep throwing injectors at the car until my CPO runs out without ever finding the root cause.

I read another thread recently that included a procedure for replacing injectors that said if you lose the shims that are under the injectors from the factory you basically need an all new head. Wondering if maybe that has something to do with the issues others are having.

I'm just throwing out ideas here. Anyone else care to share experiences / thoughts on the matter?

tc535i · 10-05-2015, 11:32 AM

carbon cleaned a year ago, installed downpipes, intercooler, charge pipe, JB4, MHD, put down 420/440 wheel on a dynojet... no injector problem yet!

NC335d · 10-05-2015, 12:45 PM

Did they recalibrate the injectors after the CBU cleaning was done? This seems like a common issue.

tc535i · 10-05-2015, 12:53 PM

shit, didn't even realize this was on the diesel board, I just clicked "new threads"

I have an 07 335i, but no recalibration after carbon blast

gavronm · 10-05-2015, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NC335d

Did they recalibrate the injectors after the CBU cleaning was done? This seems like a common issue.

Yes - Recalibrated all injectors after carbon cleaning. Got an SES light - replaced injector 5 and recalibrated the replacement. Got another SES light - recalibrated 5 again + "Increment wheel adaptation service function with ISID". And now, another SES light with codes for injector 5 and injector 1 zero mass adaptations.

I don't think I've gone more than 4 days without an SES since the carbon cleaning.

shnaggs · 10-05-2015, 02:08 PM

Ok, so now I have been reading through the PDF's on the adaption systems on the 335D's injection system, cause I'm about to do my own walnut blasting, and am curious about the adaptions. Wondering if I need to perform this before I get her tuned.

please correct me if I'm wrong. Its seems there are 3 parameters that "need" to be altered or changed if you change 1 of 3 things- Injectors, Maf, rail pressure sensor.
And now performing a Carbon Cleaning.

These params are- Injection quantity compensation, Zero-quantity adaptation, and Mean quantity adaptation.

This first one is straight forward. Its there to tell the DDE what little variance is in each injector, so that the DDE can make sure that the injection events are precise per cylinder.

This is were it starts getting weird. The second one is just an adaption (that is continuous) for the 'pilot injection' or pre injection. Pre injection is basically there to make the engine quieter at idle speed, or low operating speed. There is also the ability for a post injection, but that is strictly for regen. As is seems, there should be no drivability issues with the pilot injection being out of calibration. BMW even says in the pdf that there will be no change in fuel economy due to the small amount of fuel that is injected during the pilot injection.

Last one is what makes me think this is either not needed for the modded crowed, or we need to take another look at this.
"Mean quantity adaptation is the adaptation process at which the air/fuel ratio is corrected (partial load range). This correction
is performed by adapting the amount of air by means of the exhaust-gas recirculation valve."
This is telling me that for those of us with EGR blocked, or tuned out, that this adaption is not going to be needed. Or maybe my theory of EGR valve cycle vs butterfly angle is integrated, and maybe crucial. Cause the car is trying to reach a target air/fuel, but only using the EGR to change the mixture. So if egr is blocked, then Air/ fuel will not change. And if the butterfly is integrated into the EGR, than it may cause weak throttle response?

gavronm · 10-05-2015, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shnaggs

Pre injection is basically there to make the engine quieter at idle speed, or low operating speed.

This makes absolute sense to me because in all my driving around with zero mass adaptation faults there is no perceivable performance issues OTHER THAN a slightly rough idle. Car accelerates and holds steady-state perfectly fine.

Thanks for taking the time to look through that documentation.

dixy2k · 10-05-2015, 04:14 PM

It is common for the injectors to go bad around the time of the CBU.
They would need to be replaced (all six of them).

montr · 10-05-2015, 07:45 PM

As you read in another post, I had 17 new injectors so far. The process is usually cylinder 2 or/and cylinder 4 injector zero mass adaptation accompanied with a rough idle.

Here is usually what happen
1) They first try to reset the adaptation, reset the fault code and drive the car.
2) SES turn back ON again. They swap location of the injectors.
3) After few days, problem reappear but it does not follow the injector swap. That is, if problem was on injector #2 and it moved to #6, SES turn ON for #2.
4) Dealer open a PUMA case with BMW NA.
5) BMW NA instruct the dealer to replace all 6 injectors ans instruct to recalibrate. According the SA, at one time (when my car was at the dealer for 2 months) BMW NA installed some special software to do the calibration while doing a driving test.

This usually get the SES OFF for about 6 months. After 6 months, I have to do the same thing over and over. This process has been going on for about 3 years now. The good news is the injectors are warranty for 2 years, I do not have to pay the $50 deductible.

glitdi · 10-05-2015, 07:59 PM

My experience was a little different.
After Cbu cleaning was still getting an engine smoothness code in #1 and #6 and limp mode.
Took it to the dealer told them what to do, Irap session, update software in dde to the most current Version III I believe and to reset adaptations and Irap session the car and to drive it... They advised against my wishes, had to convince the service rep and service manager I knew what I was doing. After the f around I got an apology and the bill waved for all my trouble, also got a kudos for teaching them about their car.
Side note they wont do the software update unless Rhiengold, bmw etc tells them to...
Not saying it will work with all these cars but 1) piezzo injectors are a very reliable they have a ridiculous long shelf life if you think about it... (this is why I was leaning away from injectors.)
2) I had very similar symptoms to what others had and the software update and re calibration worked beautifully! Besides injectors aint cheap, its worth a bit of time and money for the update and the inpa session.

Touch wood haven't had any other issues with injector etc..

ninja_zx11 · 10-18-2015, 12:16 PM

Anyone having injector adaptation faults after carbon build up cleaning,please read this thread.
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=812497

So the remedy is to update DDE software which include new increment wheel adaptation reset function and newer ISTA/P(only newer ISTA/P contains this test plan) to be used to run that test plan.

shnaggs · 10-19-2015, 06:25 AM

Thanks ninja, this sheds some more light.

So I just performed the carbon cleaning this weekend. Should I make an effort to get these adaptions done? Or wait and see if I start getting injector codes before I call bmw?

Also, I take it that for this to be done, a blocked egr valve would have to be unblocked? I.e. Car needs to be in stock trim?

10-05-2015, 11:31 AM	#1
gavronm First Lieutenant 88 Rep 358 Posts Drives: 2011 335D M-Sport Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: United States iTrader: (0)	Injector "Failures" After Carbon Cleaning I've seen several posts about people getting carbon cleanings and then having injectors allegedly start going south. In the recent 335d Carbon Build-Up thread montr talks about getting 17 new injectors. That is insane. I'm afraid I'm about to be in the same boat. If you're burning through injectors please share your experience - what steps were taken, what worked and what didn't - so others (myself included) can hopefully avoid playing musical injectors. I got my carbon cleaning a little over a month ago. Since then I've been into the dealer 3 times for a cylinder 5 zero mass adaptation fault. The first time in they reset adaptations, 2nd time they swapped the injector, and the last time they opened a case with BMWNA, reset the injector adaptations and the wheel adaptations as directed by BMWNA, kept the car for a bit to make sure the fault didn't return, and gave me back the car. About 3 days later the SES light went on for - of course, a cylinder 5 zero mass adaptation fault. With a track day coming up I wasn't about to give them back my car, so I cleared the code and went on my way, checking the faults and resetting the lights as things came up. This morning there were 2 codes, cylinder 5 mass adaptation and now a cylinder 1 mass adaptation. I'm not sure what they'll do about cylinder 5 this time around but I assume they'll be giving me a new injector in 1. My main concern is that they'll just keep throwing injectors at the car until my CPO runs out without ever finding the root cause. I read another thread recently that included a procedure for replacing injectors that said if you lose the shims that are under the injectors from the factory you basically need an all new head. Wondering if maybe that has something to do with the issues others are having. I'm just throwing out ideas here. Anyone else care to share experiences / thoughts on the matter?
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10-05-2015, 12:45 PM	#3
NC335d Second Lieutenant 106 Rep 292 Posts Drives: 2011 335d Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Raleigh, NC iTrader: (0) Garage List 2017 Audi Q7 [0.00] 2011 BMW 335d [0.00] 2006 Nissan Titan SE [0.00] 2008 MB CLS550 [0.00] 2012 BMW X5 SAV [0.00]	Did they recalibrate the injectors after the CBU cleaning was done? This seems like a common issue.
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10-05-2015, 12:53 PM	#4
tc535i Lieutenant Colonel 215 Rep 1,818 Posts Drives: 2007 335i, 2001 330i, 1995 M3 Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: West Los Angeles iTrader: (1)	shit, didn't even realize this was on the diesel board, I just clicked "new threads" I have an 07 335i, but no recalibration after carbon blast
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10-05-2015, 04:14 PM	#8
dixy2k Major 88 Rep 1,152 Posts Drives: 335d Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: CA iTrader: (0)	It is common for the injectors to go bad around the time of the CBU. They would need to be replaced (all six of them).
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10-05-2015, 07:45 PM	#9
montr Captain 157 Rep 716 Posts Drives: 2010 335d, 2018 430i G-Coupe Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Atlanta, GA iTrader: (0)	As you read in another post, I had 17 new injectors so far. The process is usually cylinder 2 or/and cylinder 4 injector zero mass adaptation accompanied with a rough idle. Here is usually what happen 1) They first try to reset the adaptation, reset the fault code and drive the car. 2) SES turn back ON again. They swap location of the injectors. 3) After few days, problem reappear but it does not follow the injector swap. That is, if problem was on injector #2 and it moved to #6, SES turn ON for #2. 4) Dealer open a PUMA case with BMW NA. 5) BMW NA instruct the dealer to replace all 6 injectors ans instruct to recalibrate. According the SA, at one time (when my car was at the dealer for 2 months) BMW NA installed some special software to do the calibration while doing a driving test. This usually get the SES OFF for about 6 months. After 6 months, I have to do the same thing over and over. This process has been going on for about 3 years now. The good news is the injectors are warranty for 2 years, I do not have to pay the $50 deductible.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-05-2015, 11:32 AM	#2
tc535i Lieutenant Colonel 215 Rep 1,818 Posts Drives: 2007 335i, 2001 330i, 1995 M3 Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: West Los Angeles iTrader: (1)	carbon cleaned a year ago, installed downpipes, intercooler, charge pipe, JB4, MHD, put down 420/440 wheel on a dynojet... no injector problem yet!
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10-05-2015, 02:08 PM	#6
shnaggs Lieutenant 73 Rep 462 Posts Drives: TDi Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: NE, Pa iTrader: (1)	Ok, so now I have been reading through the PDF's on the adaption systems on the 335D's injection system, cause I'm about to do my own walnut blasting, and am curious about the adaptions. Wondering if I need to perform this before I get her tuned. please correct me if I'm wrong. Its seems there are 3 parameters that "need" to be altered or changed if you change 1 of 3 things- Injectors, Maf, rail pressure sensor. And now performing a Carbon Cleaning. These params are- Injection quantity compensation, Zero-quantity adaptation, and Mean quantity adaptation. This first one is straight forward. Its there to tell the DDE what little variance is in each injector, so that the DDE can make sure that the injection events are precise per cylinder. This is were it starts getting weird. The second one is just an adaption (that is continuous) for the 'pilot injection' or pre injection. Pre injection is basically there to make the engine quieter at idle speed, or low operating speed. There is also the ability for a post injection, but that is strictly for regen. As is seems, there should be no drivability issues with the pilot injection being out of calibration. BMW even says in the pdf that there will be no change in fuel economy due to the small amount of fuel that is injected during the pilot injection. Last one is what makes me think this is either not needed for the modded crowed, or we need to take another look at this. "Mean quantity adaptation is the adaptation process at which the air/fuel ratio is corrected (partial load range). This correction is performed by adapting the amount of air by means of the exhaust-gas recirculation valve." This is telling me that for those of us with EGR blocked, or tuned out, that this adaption is not going to be needed. Or maybe my theory of EGR valve cycle vs butterfly angle is integrated, and maybe crucial. Cause the car is trying to reach a target air/fuel, but only using the EGR to change the mixture. So if egr is blocked, then Air/ fuel will not change. And if the butterfly is integrated into the EGR, than it may cause weak throttle response?
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10-05-2015, 07:59 PM	#10
glitdi Rudolf/German/Compression Ignition Specialist. 53 Rep 168 Posts Drives: 2009 335d Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: West Coast Canada iTrader: (0)	My experience was a little different. After Cbu cleaning was still getting an engine smoothness code in #1 and #6 and limp mode. Took it to the dealer told them what to do, Irap session, update software in dde to the most current Version III I believe and to reset adaptations and Irap session the car and to drive it... They advised against my wishes, had to convince the service rep and service manager I knew what I was doing. After the f around I got an apology and the bill waved for all my trouble, also got a kudos for teaching them about their car. Side note they wont do the software update unless Rhiengold, bmw etc tells them to... Not saying it will work with all these cars but 1) piezzo injectors are a very reliable they have a ridiculous long shelf life if you think about it... (this is why I was leaning away from injectors.) 2) I had very similar symptoms to what others had and the software update and re calibration worked beautifully! Besides injectors aint cheap, its worth a bit of time and money for the update and the inpa session. Touch wood haven't had any other issues with injector etc..
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10-18-2015, 12:16 PM	#11
ninja_zx11 Private First Class 89 Rep 183 Posts Drives: X5 diesel 2009 Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Langley BC,Canada iTrader: (0)	Anyone having injector adaptation faults after carbon build up cleaning,please read this thread. http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=812497 So the remedy is to update DDE software which include new increment wheel adaptation reset function and newer ISTA/P(only newer ISTA/P contains this test plan) to be used to run that test plan. Last edited by ninja_zx11; 10-18-2015 at 12:24 PM..
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10-19-2015, 06:25 AM	#12
shnaggs Lieutenant 73 Rep 462 Posts Drives: TDi Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: NE, Pa iTrader: (1)	Thanks ninja, this sheds some more light. So I just performed the carbon cleaning this weekend. Should I make an effort to get these adaptions done? Or wait and see if I start getting injector codes before I call bmw? Also, I take it that for this to be done, a blocked egr valve would have to be unblocked? I.e. Car needs to be in stock trim?
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