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      03-18-2008, 03:09 AM   #23
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Carlos, your language does you no credit at all. Regardless of what has been said, I think you should go back and edit out some of the 'choice' words. Or at least have the decency to use a few *****. Thanks.
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      03-18-2008, 03:21 AM   #24
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I would not say he was arrogant at all, but in order to be the best you need to show a bit of 'attitude', just like Senna, Schumacher, Alonso etc...its quite refreshing actually to see a Brit like this for a change...

And Carlos, don't you think that a little bit of natural ability might be invoived in order to become an F1 driver ?
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      03-18-2008, 03:24 AM   #25
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Whatever money he's had to get where he is, you can't deny he's up there with the best of them. Look at his performance last year - or if you think it's all the car, look at his Top Gear lap. I'm sure there are resentful people who didn't get the sponsorship who could also have been good (and I think we all know at least one of them), but it happens in every single sport.

Some people get the breaks, some don't. Nobody but the most bitter resent those that did.
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      03-18-2008, 05:34 AM   #26
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Sorry for the swearing.


I aint bitter, i do know people who are tho.

Its more of knowing whose capable of what. Then knowing someone who was good but not superb compared to some thers now leading the f1 world championsip, FOR ME makes it a mockery and cheapened.

Makes me question the whole thing.

The car has had his whole career programmed. Programmed and paid for. Its worked, **** me has it worked. He has used the opportunity to maximum effect for sure. But its taken more than enough time.

He first drove an f1 car in 2004, but then didnt get a full drive with the team who have paid for everything for him for another years. He just wasnt ready..

Alot of talented drivers dont need copious amount of time to get there. I can only compare it sort of to a manufactured pop star but for the racing world.

His whole career has been about him being high profile. They created a karting class in britain called ''maclaren mercedes champions of the furure'' yes maclaren paid for this series to be started so there lewis who they were paying for could win this televised series to boost his profile. All the while the ''top boys'' in karting didnt even compete in this class and it was seen as ''mickey mouse'' and they continued to pursue success in the ''British championship''

but it got lewis pulbicity, fake publicity as the frickin class was created for him and he had a budget bigger than anyone else.

Give him his due, he did win te Formula A european karting championship (the gp2 of karting as it were) When he moved to Formula Super A, he got his ass cained.. annihilated.

So instead of regrouping and coming back for another assault the next year they decided to go into a ''lesser'' sinle seater catagory to kick arse and look good again. They 6 years later he is finally ready for f1.. Man thats an age. Many drivers who take that long never get there... Lewis was always going to as they spent to much money on him for him to fail... whatever it took, however long he wouldbe there finally.

You must see why i am annoyed it taken ALL THAT time and resource for him to get there. He needed so much time,effort,money,supprt to get there its beyond a joke But the boy is doing good now

Look back to last year, he was always there, thats why he was so close at the end.. Not because he was ballistic. He won less races, had less fastest laps and relied on Kimi being ''off'' throughout the year to be in with a chance.

As soon as Kimi sorted his head out, he made mincemeat of the kid..

Going from last weekend, seems this year will be the same. Kimi needs to find himself again..

Good luck to the lad. But ill never have respect for him and i know where he came from and who put him there.....

Carlos
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      03-18-2008, 06:41 AM   #27
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9 times out of 10 the fastest car always wins regardless of the driver and it has been like that for years.

I would say imo once a driver gets to a certain standard in a modern formula 1 race.

The car = 75% team race tactics = 15% driver = 10%.

Exceptions are rare. e.g. bad weather with Stewart winning at Nurnigberg about 7 yrs ago. Damon in the Arrows on the right tyres if I remember right in Hungary coming 2nd and nearly winning.

Senna, Michael and Prost could get more out of an 'average mid grid' car than most and would not settle for just going through the motions.

To much money for being very average has ruined most of professional sport.
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      03-18-2008, 01:53 PM   #28
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I don't think there is anything wrong with being trained up to be the best at something. Most of the world's professional population work on this assumption. When you get advice from a lawyer or a doctor you expect that level of training and this is'nt so different. Why is it unacceptable that Lewis Hamilton is a trained professional?

Also, you need some talent to drive at that speed and win. Yes the best car helps a lot but you still need a level head. Hamilton is in a priviliged postion but then again he is delivering what he's paid for. And yes, Kimi Raikkonnen is a brilliant driver but at that level to make 4 screw ups in one race is'nt that brilliant. To make excuses like 'he needs time to find himself' is bollocks at the height of a profession. If I killed a patient at work through negligence but was otherwise a brilliant doctor I'd be thrown out or jailed not have a bunch of excuses made up on my behalf and a pat on the back.

Its also worth noting that all the F1 teams had to get used to no traction control this year, so they all had the same amount of time to adapt. Who adapted the best - Hamilton. Massa could'nt even turn the friggin car round the first corner and Raikkonnen slipped up countless times.
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      03-18-2008, 02:02 PM   #29
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Carlos .. whilst I understand that you were in the karting scene at the same time as Lewis Hamilton your summary on this seems way to simplistic.

I would be very interested to talk about some of the things you may have seen first hand, but I suspect that much of this is about perception rather than hard facts.

Some things which you have said that I struggle with ...

1. I was there and saw it all ..

Well you might have been there for some of LH's early races, but there is no way that you 'saw it all'.

2. This kid aint creme da le creme, but has had millions plowed into him. THATS why he is good.

It stands to reason that Maclaren would ONLY spend millions of pounds funding LH's early career IF they were absolutely convinced of his ability and potential. I doubt very much that they are in the habit of wasting money. I also doubt that they would have given him a drive in F1 if we had not proved himself to be a winner.

3. Lewis Hamilton took 6 years to move from karting to F1 ....

Actually he took longer than that. His first F1 testing was when he was around 20 and he started karting aged around 10. He was hardly going to get an F1 position after 18 months aged 11 1/2 was he?

4. Seeing someone, who was not the best in his game, now at the top of international motosport and doing well DILUTES WHO WHOLE ASPECT OF IT

He was the best at his game. He was a strong consistent winner in karting and in single seaters. Yes he had sponsorship for much of that time, but not all of it. In fact he actually left Maclaren for a year and then came back to them. They would not have taken him back unless they felt he was the "best at his game".

5. He first drove an f1 car in 2004, but then didnt get a full drive with the team who have paid for everything for him for another years. He just wasnt ready

Of course he wasn't ready in 2004 he was around 18 years old, with limited experience of single seater racing. Bit unlikely that anyone would be ready for an F1 drive at that age.

6. They created a karting class in britain called ''maclaren mercedes champions of the furure'' yes maclaren paid for this series to be started so there lewis who they were paying for could win this televised series to boost his profile

They didn't create this for him. And why would maclaren want to publicise him in this way? Maclaren had nothing to gain by letting him win a cushy series. They don't need publicity - as an F1 team they already have enough. The series was about finding other LH's and bringing them on.

7. You must see why i am annoyed it taken ALL THAT time and resource for him to get there

How could it take less time? He couldn't have started racing F1 any earlier than he did - he was just too young.

8. Look back to last year, he was always there, thats why he was so close at the end.. Not because he was ballistic. He won less races, had less fastest laps and relied on Kimi being ''off'' throughout the year to be in with a chance.

This is nonsense. He led the championship for most of the season. He was in the top 3 for almost every race. He took most of the poles and he put in the fastest laps.

There is no doubt that the ferraris and maclarens are the best cars. Would he be winning in a honda ... probably not. But does that make him a lessor driver than Jenson Button. Definitely not.

I appreciate that you have some knowledge and first hand experience of LH's early career and I'd be interested to hear it. However, to simply dismiss the lad reflects badly on you mate. You may have some driving talent .. or you may not .. I don't know.

What I do know for a fact is that no-one on this forum could even drive an F1 car round a GP circuit fast enough to get the tyres and brakes working properly. Just keeping one of those things on the track behind a safety car requires immense skill.

When the tyres are cold they have no grip. When they are cornering slowly they have no downforce. You need to drive the thing hard to even get it to perform and none of us here - including you Carlos - would stand a chance.
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      03-18-2008, 02:08 PM   #30
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carlos u could of been on the chubby side and could of slowed you down on the corners. lewis looks skinny as a rake lol, only playing lol
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      03-18-2008, 02:10 PM   #31
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Didnt read your whole post NFS, dont have time, i will read it all and reply properly tomorrow.
I have not dismissed him, ive said he has done amazingly well with his opportunity.

YES FROM LEAVING karting to racing in f1 took 6 years. much longer than other drivers.

I will be happy to tell all and have an in-depth discussion about it, at UK5.


Carlos
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      03-18-2008, 02:15 PM   #32
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YES FROM LEAVING karting to racing in f1 took 6 years. much longer than other drivers.
Because he was much younger than the other drivers.

What I struggle to understand is this ..

Your argument is that LH was not as good a driver as some of his peers.

Why would maclaren invest millions sponsoring a driver who was not the best? Why did they not drop him and sponsor the better drivers? Do you think you are a better judge of talent than Ron Dennis? Do you know more about F1 than him?

You've also said 2 conflicting things ..

1. That LH only won because of his funding
2. That he got beaten day in day out.

Which is true?

The bottom line is this .. Maclaren have invested lot's of money in LH over many years. They could have dropped him at any time and picked up another rising star. Unless he's been blackmailing Ron Dennis and has secret pictures of him sleeping with a horse I can only think of one reason why Maclaren kept giving him the money ....

... They believed that he would give them a return on his investment.

The fact that he has consisently earned points, got pole position, won races and finished second in the championship in his first year strongly suggests that Maclaren chose well and are seeing that return.

If you are right then either Ron Dennis is an idiot or Lewis Hamilton is the best con man in history.
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      03-18-2008, 02:19 PM   #33
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Because his dad was a good business man, and his dad also said once that he will use the colour of his sons skin to get him into f1.

Also i didnt need to watch every kart race of his live to know his whole career mate, when your in the karting business everyone knows whats going on.

Have fun, im off...


He did win, he won this and that and the euro champs FA but got whooped in FSA.
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      03-18-2008, 02:28 PM   #34
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Because his dad was a good business man, and his dad also said once that he will use the colour of his sons skin to get him into f1.
I know a lot of good business men Carlos. But I don't know any who could persuade an F1 team to sponsor a mediocre driver for 10 years then give him a seat in an F1 car for the championship.

I'm pretty sure that Maclaren want to win, which makes me also sure that they would only sponsor the very best drivers around.

I'm not even going to respond to comments on his skin colour. They are irrelevant at best.
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      03-18-2008, 02:45 PM   #35
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Oh my god, here we go again........

Carl is back - BAA
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      03-18-2008, 02:50 PM   #36
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secret pictures of him sleeping with a horse
Is that illegal?
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      03-18-2008, 02:51 PM   #37
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Is that illegal?
Depends on the age of the horse
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      03-18-2008, 02:52 PM   #38
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Depends on the age of the horse
How are you supposed to know? - it's not as though they can tell you.
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      03-18-2008, 02:53 PM   #39
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How are you supposed to know? - it's not as though they can tell you.
Look at the teeth

http://www.ageinghorseteeth.com/
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      03-18-2008, 02:54 PM   #40
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Carl, just a reminder to watch you language, please, irrespective of your feelings toward Lewis Hamilton, ok.

If it continues, this thread's season is closing early, ok.

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      03-18-2008, 02:55 PM   #41
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What if the owner has been cleaning them a lot or it may have dentures/crowns etc?

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      03-18-2008, 02:55 PM   #42
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Carl, just a reminder to watch you language, irrespective of your feelings toward Lewis Hamilton, ok.

If it continues, this thread's season is closing early, ok.

Viv
Lewis never swears
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      03-18-2008, 02:59 PM   #43
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Lewis never swears
I'm sure Carlos will identify an incident where he thought he may well have done, NFS.

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      03-18-2008, 03:00 PM   #44
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The press have already tried and failed to nail him for the f word:-

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/m...so-460897.html
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