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      04-02-2008, 04:43 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by halfpast3 View Post
To answer your question....No it is not the same thing.
Uh, yes it is. Just because you are a "PRIVATE FIRST CLASS" you think you are cool.
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      04-02-2008, 04:54 PM   #46
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Uh, yes it is. Just because you are a "PRIVATE FIRST CLASS" you think you are cool.
There is people on here with over 4000 posts and I think I'm cool with 30 more posts than you? Okay bro, sure thing

Am I not allowed to have an opinion? I think your logic is whack. Based on your arguement, you should also dispute the D&H charge as "the cost of doing business". BMW shouldn't have to charge customers for shipping charges they pay to sell their cars....right? Its the cost of them doing business. Oh wait, its legitimate merely because they put it on the MSRP.
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      04-02-2008, 05:13 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by halfpast3 View Post
There is people on here with over 4000 posts and I think I'm cool with 30 more posts than you? Okay bro, sure thing

Am I not allowed to have an opinion? I think your logic is whack. Based on your arguement, you should also dispute the D&H charge as "the cost of doing business". BMW shouldn't have to charge customers for shipping charges they pay to sell their cars....right? Its the cost of them doing business. Oh wait, its legitimate merely because they put it on the MSRP.
Relax, BRO! It was a joke.

Everyone has an opinion. I hate to see my BRO's in larger markets pay $300-400 MACO plus training fees which the dealer makes up in future sales anyway because of these ads. I'm just glad it's not me. I'm guessing since you like to pay BS fees you are a dealer! EH?
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      04-02-2008, 05:57 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by halfpast3 View Post
I think your logic is whack. Based on your arguement, you should also dispute the D&H charge as "the cost of doing business". BMW shouldn't have to charge customers for shipping charges they pay to sell their cars....right? Its the cost of them doing business. Oh wait, its legitimate merely because they put it on the MSRP.
I don't think his logic is whack at all. I actually think there is a difference between MACO and D&H.

I don't see shipping a final product as overhead. I see it as a value-added service that brings the car to my local market. MACO is marketing. Marketing is not a value-added service. It is an expenditure that goes into the generation of revenue.
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      04-02-2008, 06:10 PM   #49
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I don't think his logic is whack at all. I actually think there is a difference between MACO and D&H.

I don't see shipping a final product as overhead. I see it as a value-added service that brings the car to my local market. MACO is marketing. Marketing is not a value-added service. It is an expenditure that goes into the generation of revenue.
Yes, YEs, YES! Very well said.
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      04-02-2008, 06:24 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Lassaxi View Post
I don't think his logic is whack at all. I actually think there is a difference between MACO and D&H.

I don't see shipping a final product as overhead. I see it as a value-added service that brings the car to my local market. MACO is marketing. Marketing is not a value-added service. It is an expenditure that goes into the generation of revenue.
Of course there is a difference between them. I'm not saying they're the same. This thread is about the MACO being a BS fee that dealers try and charge the customer. My point is if the manufacturer of a product charges X for a product, it is a legitimate charge. They produced the item and set the cost. If you don't like it, you as a consumer can choose not buy the product, or in this case buy from a dealer who is not charged the MACO from the manufacturer. The latter is hard to do if you live in Southern California.
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      04-03-2008, 07:52 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by halfpast3 View Post
Of course there is a difference between them. I'm not saying they're the same. This thread is about the MACO being a BS fee that dealers try and charge the customer. My point is if the manufacturer of a product charges X for a product, it is a legitimate charge. They produced the item and set the cost. If you don't like it, you as a consumer can choose not buy the product, or in this case buy from a dealer who is not charged the MACO from the manufacturer. The latter is hard to do if you live in Southern California.
I understand what you're saying- we shouldn't see MACO as a bogus fee because it's is not about the dealer squeezing out extra profit, it's about BMW squeezing out extra proft. The OP is going to have to pay something for MACO, because it's not a fee that the dealer can control.

As you implied, my objection is more philosophical than practical. All I'm saying is that I don't think the fee is "legitimate" just because BMW, rather than the dealer, is the one charging it. If the dealer is ganing some benefit as a result of the marketing that MACO pays for, I think that is part of the dealer's cost of doing business- just as if the dealer took out an ad in the local newspaper. To the extent that the dealer needs to recoup that cost, it should come out of their profit on the sale, just like all of their other operating costs do.

Practically speaking, if I had to buy from a MACO dealer, I might try to drive a harder bargain on the overall price than I would from a non-MACO dealer. I guess that's about all you can really do to try to offset the fee.
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      04-04-2008, 02:18 AM   #52
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Here is the problem people - MACO is charged to the invoice - not the MSRP. So you as the customer technically aren't even being charged for it, the dealership is.

The cold cut answer is MACO is a real fee, and the dealership pays it. In BMW's perfect world, the customer wouldn't even know about MACO or Training Service Fee's or anything, because it is a wholesale fee and not a retail fee.

Some of you are taking it as BMW is charging YOU for this fee, but in reality, they really aren't.
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      04-04-2008, 02:21 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by jwed335i View Post

Well, luckily I have never done business with a dealer that charges these fees and never will, Will.
Hate to say it - but I don't really think I'd really want to do business with you anyway

Cheers!

Will
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      04-04-2008, 02:34 AM   #54
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Hate to say it - but I don't really think I'd really want to do business with you anyway

Cheers!

Will
OMG, LMFAO
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      04-04-2008, 08:29 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by will@longbeachbmw View Post
Here is the problem people - MACO is charged to the invoice - not the MSRP. So you as the customer technically aren't even being charged for it, the dealership is.

The cold cut answer is MACO is a real fee, and the dealership pays it. In BMW's perfect world, the customer wouldn't even know about MACO or Training Service Fee's or anything, because it is a wholesale fee and not a retail fee.

Some of you are taking it as BMW is charging YOU for this fee, but in reality, they really aren't.
What we are saying is that your dealerships light bill is a fee I don't want to pay either. Just because BMWNA charges you the MACO on each cars invoice (for advertising you are making money off of anyway) dosen't give you a valid reason to pass it on to the customer. It doesn't matter if they bill you once per month on a seperate invoice or on the cars invoice, it's yours to take care of!

The only reason you are even trying to justify this is because it happens to be on each car. If it was billed in one lump sum each month it would be much more difficult, wouldn't it? Dealerships that are not on the MACO program could divide up their local advertising costs and add that to invoice too. Yeah, that would fly. This is BS!
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      04-04-2008, 09:27 AM   #56
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So Mr. Will Shaw, since you have make the choice to stick your neck out here and talk politics and religion, please list ALL of your dealer fees. Please include: MACO, doc fees, Training and any additional that are not tax-tag-title on a retail purchase.

Thank you.
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      04-04-2008, 10:54 AM   #57
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Let's just end this by saying "if you don't want to pay the fees then don't buy the car".

Last edited by beefybmer; 04-04-2008 at 11:11 AM.
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      04-05-2008, 11:17 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by jwed335i View Post
So Mr. Will Shaw, since you have make the choice to stick your neck out here and talk politics and religion, please list ALL of your dealer fees. Please include: MACO, doc fees, Training and any additional that are not tax-tag-title on a retail purchase.

Thank you.
No thank you - and I haven't even got into the presidential race yet. Care to debate with me on that via PM?


Will
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      04-06-2008, 03:49 PM   #59
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No thank you - and I haven't even got into the presidential race yet. Care to debate with me on that via PM?


Will
AAAHH. A newbie sales guy. You haven't learned the phrase "Don't poop where you eat" either I see.

Are you going to share with us what (all) your dealer fees are, Mr. Will? We are waiting!

If you don't respond or just try changing the subject again, we will understand!
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      04-06-2008, 05:25 PM   #60
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Why do you feel like you should get the car for under invoice? If BMW's were selling for UNDER invoice nobody would want them bc they'd be distressed merchandise like Chevy's and all you supremacists would say how much BMW sucks. You're paying for quality and the name. Plus, dont forget that the sales people deserve a living too, you dont work for free do you?
Hate to tell you this.. But BMWs are a distressed merchandise like chevys.. Just look at the financing rates and lease rates. You can lease a BMW with similar price to a Mercedes for at least $100 less a month. You can lease a BMW with a $10k higher price tag than a lexus for the same monthly payment.

At my local dealer the sales people are paid a salary and only get a small sub $500 commission per car.

But its a free market I can do what I want and the dealer can refuse to sell to me at my "market" price. But most understand turning down an offer is the same as buying back the product.
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      04-06-2008, 05:41 PM   #61
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For all you guys that say doc fees are BS.

They are not, and in CA it is illegal to charge a doc fee to one person and not another. I work at a car dealership and documentation fees must be exactly the same for every customer everytime. If someone took off doc fee's they are breaking the law. In CA at least.
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      04-06-2008, 09:30 PM   #62
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AAAHH. A newbie sales guy. You haven't learned the phrase "Don't poop where you eat" either I see.

Are you going to share with us what (all) your dealer fees are, Mr. Will? We are waiting!

If you don't respond or just try changing the subject again, we will understand!
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      04-06-2008, 10:52 PM   #63
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Thought SO!
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      04-08-2008, 08:00 AM   #64
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For all you guys that say doc fees are BS.

They are not, and in CA it is illegal to charge a doc fee to one person and not another. I work at a car dealership and documentation fees must be exactly the same for every customer everytime. If someone took off doc fee's they are breaking the law. In CA at least.
California is a bit of a unique case because the fee is modest and set by the state. In most states, there is no required documenation fee, and dealers charge whatever they think they can get (upwards of $200-300 in some cases). CA's state documentation fee is perfectly legit. The so-called "dealer" doc fees are not.
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      04-08-2008, 02:36 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by jwed335i View Post
What we are saying is that your dealerships light bill is a fee I don't want to pay either. Just because BMWNA charges you the MACO on each cars invoice (for advertising you are making money off of anyway) dosen't give you a valid reason to pass it on to the customer. It doesn't matter if they bill you once per month on a seperate invoice or on the cars invoice, it's yours to take care of!

The only reason you are even trying to justify this is because it happens to be on each car. If it was billed in one lump sum each month it would be much more difficult, wouldn't it? Dealerships that are not on the MACO program could divide up their local advertising costs and add that to invoice too. Yeah, that would fly. This is BS!
I think I figured out where I disagree with you. If you as a consumer want to buy a product at a set profit amount over cost ($500 over invoice was the original example I believe) and the dealer has MACO on his/her invoice than I think yes you should pay it. Whatever the actual factory invoice total is plus $500 would be your agreement. You don't get to pick what charges on the invoice are acceptable. You agreed to $500 over invoice. Period.

Now if the dealer adds things to the invoice i.e. detail, PDI, etc, I would agree with you that should not be passed on to the consumer because that was not the agreement.

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      04-08-2008, 10:31 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lassaxi View Post
California is a bit of a unique case because the fee is modest and set by the state. In most states, there is no required documenation fee, and dealers charge whatever they think they can get (upwards of $200-300 in some cases). CA's state documentation fee is perfectly legit. The so-called "dealer" doc fees are not.
Yeah Doc fee's are $50 here
For every customer, no matter what, even when I buy a car from my mom
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