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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > General E90 Sedan / E91 Wagon / E92 Coupe / E93 Cabrio > Why BMW needs turbo for E54 engine to acheive 306hp?



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      02-18-2006, 12:59 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweak48
Doesn't the cost of 2 turbos, intercooler, and associated h/w-s/w pretty much guarantee that the 335 will be substantially more expensive, and create a three model 3 series lineup?? I think a BMW 335 could get a $5 grand premium over the IS-350, and creates a nice nitch for the 330.
I don't think it guarantees the price will be higher, it depends how BMW decide to pitch a 335. If they believe the risk of a turbo in the US is not too high they could replace the 330 with a 335 model and count on recovering costs through higher volume sales. For that to work the pricing could not be too far above the current 330 as they would be looking for volume sales similar or greater than the existing 330 sales.

The other strategy they might take is to not bank on high volume sales and place the 335 above the 330 (additional model in the line-up) with a premium similar to what you are talking about (5K or so). This has the effect of having the 3-series again seen as the definitive performance sedan even if the bulk of people continue to buy 325s (in North America at least).

I actually believe the move to a turbo is a pretty shrewd one on the part of BMW, and not only for technical/performance reasons. Having a turbo 6 in the line-up gives them a very inexpensive way to offer a variety of performance levels w/o significant re-engineering. Expect to see the horsepower/torque incremement as required to keep the competition at bay.

The idea of a 335i and later on a 335si seems perfectly reasonable to me. Those who think that the N54 makes the N52 obsolete should watch for how quickly the 335 cars get a performance boost!

The last thing I'll add (and I've been thinking this for a while), is that at lot of people here assume that the 335 would be an E90 with a more powerful engine. To me, it is not like BMW to do that. I would not be at all surprised if there are suspension upgrades and other modifications to ensure the power is well used. Certainly this would be the case for a 335si if not a 335i. This would also factor into BMW costs and would influence their decision as to whether to pitch the car as a replacement to the 330 (perhaps using a near identical chassis) or as a model above the 330.
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      02-18-2006, 02:25 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtaste
Old tech? Individual Throttle butterfly, 8k redline.. The history of this S54 block is long and evolutionary. Tolerance is low so handbuilt is required which costs more (17k for the engine). This is not an engine for bread and butter models. Drive it and you will know. It takes some concentration to drive it smoothly.. I have to take a deep breath everytime it gets fire up before driving off. It 's not about engine displacement and hp it generates.. It's all about how it delivers the power. Most will hate S54 block in a family sedan. Trust me I have one and loving it. It's highly strung and feels brutal. But that's the trade off. I drove the e90 330i, it's smooth.. so smooth that I love it as well.. performance asides, it's still different...
Well this is a bit exagerated. The M3 has great engine. It could be detuned by 10% for smoothness (possibly) and still get 300HP. Anyway, it could be have been a 3.5L version of current 3.0L. 255 x 3.5/3 ---> near 300.
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      02-18-2006, 02:50 PM   #47
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Can't wait for this 335 bi-turbo, although I really want their current 3.5L bi-turbo diesel engine with 410+ ft/lbs of torque at low RPM, 272 HP, and the fuel economy of a diesel at 38+ MPG if in a 3 series chassis. Now that is impressive!
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      02-18-2006, 04:08 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregA
They've tested 335i against IS350. Just for fun, since they do not benchmark Lexus - its vice versa. Btw, it was like playing with a mouse.
The 335si (with 330HP) also trashed new Audi S4.
FYI.
Who's "they"? You are full of B.S. and just another BMW lover that doesn't want to give credit to the competion.
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      02-18-2006, 08:40 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor
So much for theory. On the pratical side, a Subaru 4 cyl. 2.5 turbo costs more in fuel than a Honda V6 3.0L for about the same HP output.
That is ture but you failed to mention that the Honda has a little thing called VETCH that both accounts for higher power and lower gas consumption.

Apples and oranges. You are compairing one of the best non turbo engines to a below average turbo. And then making a generalization about turbos based on this single claim. Not a fair fight if you ask me.
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      02-18-2006, 09:14 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Hood
When?What?Where? Am I missing something?Which test with WHAT 335i?

BMW did. In tests during the final development phases. When they compared their new product to the competitors (especially MB & Audi) - to set the susepnssion & steering better than competition.

Last edited by EnI; 02-18-2006 at 10:11 PM.
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      02-18-2006, 10:39 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregA
BMW did. In tests during the final development phases. When they compared their new product to the competitors (especially MB & Audi) - to set the susepnssion & steering better than competition.
This is a ridiculous notion and you can't be serious. BMW could care less about the competition; and if you had any viable information you would know that. To BMW there is no competition but from within. So if you are going to make something up.... try harder next time. We just ended up with a tad bit of information about the motor and some pictures and you are already claiming they beat other cars with it.... seriously stop drinking the Kool Aid!!! "They set the suspension and steering better" wow where is that magic button? seems to me that would take a lot of R&D and who knows what car this motor is even going to be in, steering geometry has a lot more to do with the produced car than the competition. Amazing the crap people try to post as fact here on this site..... part of the reason I prefer others is they would be told off and then ignored.
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      02-18-2006, 11:00 PM   #52
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Final fine settings are done (based on road testing feedback - that's why also have a full cabin of laptops and other devices in test cars, - where they also compare the new car to the existing competiton) in final engineerinng pilot phase. Just before final evaluation pilot & production are done.
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      02-18-2006, 11:09 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregA
Final fine settings are done (based on road testing feedback - that's why also have a full cabin of laptops and other devices in test cars, - where they also compare the new car to the existing competiton) in final engineerinng pilot phase. Just before final evaluation pilot & production are done.

But I'm sure you have some better info ...
Actually I do and you are a little off. My guess is you have never seen these laptops or any of the data first hand.
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      02-19-2006, 09:13 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzEKline
That is ture but you failed to mention that the Honda has a little thing called VETCH that both accounts for higher power and lower gas consumption.

Apples and oranges. You are compairing one of the best non turbo engines to a below average turbo. And then making a generalization about turbos based on this single claim. Not a fair fight if you ask me.
BMW has also variable timing. Most people won't agree with you as qualifying the Subaru 2.5GT as "a below average turbo".
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      02-19-2006, 09:32 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilbelcher
Can't wait for this 335 bi-turbo, although I really want their current 3.5L bi-turbo diesel engine with 410+ ft/lbs of torque at low RPM, 272 HP, and the fuel economy of a diesel at 38+ MPG if in a 3 series chassis. Now that is impressive!

I would like to see the 335d or 335Cd too. In my opinion it would a much more impressive car, especially in Europe where fuel prices are very high (f@#$ing taxes).
This twin-turbo has 272bhp and it can be without any problems tuned to 310 bhp and over 600 Nm. I hope that Munich decides to unveil this Diesel rocket in 3 Series.
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      02-19-2006, 10:21 AM   #56
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I second the request for the 3.5 twin turbo diesel -- class-leading power with high fuel economy. best of both worlds. I just wish BMW would bring diesel to the states at least the 3.0 liter). I will hold out for another year for their diesel, otherwise I may have to purchase the Merc 320 cdi with their new v6.
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      02-19-2006, 11:08 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ward
HP numbers mean EVERYTHING!!

HP doesn't mean shit! Torque is where it's at. Incredible torque gives you great 0-60 times. HP = Top Speed #'s and where the hell in the US are we going to use that?
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      02-19-2006, 11:42 AM   #58
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Of course, and auto manufacturer marketers take advantage of that, selling high HP engines with no torque at all, and that HP can only be used at 7000 RPM. Honda is great at fooling people, think S2000, which is a great sports car, but high-strung and you need to shift like crazy to maintain high RPMs to ever see any power.
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      02-19-2006, 11:47 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCA
HP doesn't mean shit! Torque is where it's at. Incredible torque gives you great 0-60 times. HP = Top Speed 3#'s and where the hell in the US are we going to use that?
Completely FALSE. HP is what matter for acceleration. You can have a big engine with top torque figures that will be slow as hell. Not its definition, but HP shows how quickly an engine will change RPM under load.
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      02-19-2006, 11:59 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor
Completely FALSE. HP is what matter for acceleration. You can have a big engine with top torque figures that will be slow as hell. Not its definition, but HP shows how quickly an engine will change RPM under load.


Example from oilbelcher, the Honda S2000. 237hp @ 7800 rpm and 162 ft-lb of torque in a car weighting 2855. Sorry, but if this car had more torque it would be something to talk about.

Have you ever owned a car with high HP and little torque? I have and still do. You have to rev the absolute piss out of it for it too move at a fast speed.
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      02-19-2006, 01:19 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCA
Example from oilbelcher, the Honda S2000. 237hp @ 7800 rpm and 162 ft-lb of torque in a car weighting 2855. Sorry, but if this car had more torque it would be something to talk about.

Have you ever owned a car with high HP and little torque? I have and still do. You have to rev the absolute piss out of it for it too move at a fast speed.
Have you ever owned a car with a shitload of torque but crappy HP?

So hey, yeah, I guess torque doesn't cut it on it's own either.
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      02-19-2006, 01:35 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor
Completely FALSE. HP is what matter for acceleration. You can have a big engine with top torque figures that will be slow as hell. Not its definition, but HP shows how quickly an engine will change RPM under load.
Not completely correct! Horsepower = torque x rpm / 5252
Here's an interesting bit of trivia; below 5252 rpm any engine's torque number will always be higher than its horsepower number, and above 5252 rpm any engine's horsepower number will always be higher than its torque number. At 5252 rpm the horsepower and torque numbers will be exactly the same.
First of all, from a driver's perspective, torque, to use the vernacular, RULES :-). Any given car, in any given gear, will accelerate at a rate that *exactly* matches its torque curve (allowing for increased air and rolling resistance as speeds climb). Another way of saying this is that a car will accelerate hardest at its torque peak in any given gear, and will not accelerate as hard below that peak, or above it. Torque is the only thing that a driver feels, and horsepower is just sort of an esoteric measurement in that context. 300 foot pounds of torque will accelerate you just as hard at 2000 rpm as it would if you were making that torque at 4000 rpm in the same gear, yet, per the formula, the horsepower would be *double* at 4000 rpm. Therefore, horsepower isn't particularly meaningful from a driver's perspective, and the two numbers only get friendly at 5252 rpm, where horsepower and torque always come out the same. In contrast to a torque curve (and the matching pushback into your seat), horsepower rises rapidly with rpm, especially when torque values are also climbing. Horsepower will continue to climb, however, until well past the torque peak, and will continue to rise as engine speed climbs, until the torque curve really begins to plummet, faster than engine rpm is rising. However, as I said, horsepower has nothing to do with what a driver *feels*.
Looking at top speed, horsepower wins, in the sense that making more torque at high rpm means you can use a stiffer gear for any given car speed,and thus have more effective torque *at the drive wheels*.
Finally, operating at the power peak means you are doing the absolute best you can at any given car speed, measuring torque at the drive wheels. I know I said that acceleration follows the torque curve in any given gear,but if you factor in gearing vs. car speed, the power peak is *it*.
A BMW example will illustrate this.At the 4250 rpm torque peak, a 3 liter E36 M3 is doing about 57 mph in third gear, and, as mentioned previously, it will pull the hardest in that gear at that speed when you floor it, discounting wind and rolling resistance. In point of fact (and ignoring both drive train power losses and rotational inertia), the rear wheels are getting 1177 foot pounds of torque thrown at them at 57 mph (225 foot pounds, times the third gear ratio of 1.66:1, times the final drive ratio of 3.15:1), so the car will bang you back very nicely at that point.
However, if you were to regear the car so that it is at its power peak at 57 mph, you'd have to change the final drive ratio to approximately 4.45:1. With that final drive ratio installed, you'd be at 6000 rpm in third gear, where the engine is making 240 hp. Going back to our trusty formula, you can ascertain that the engine is down to 210 foot pounds of torque at that point(240 times 5252, divided by 6000), but if you do the arithmetic (210 foot pounds, times 1.66, times the 4.45), you can see that you are now getting 1551 foot pounds of torque at the rear wheels, making for a nearly 32% more satisfying.Any other rpm (other than the power peak) at a given car speed will net you a lower torque value at the drive wheels. This would be true of any car on the planet, so, theoretical "best" top speed will always occur when a given vehicle is operating at its power peak.

Last edited by mapezzul; 02-19-2006 at 04:21 PM.
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      02-19-2006, 03:08 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor
Completely FALSE. HP is what matter for acceleration. You can have a big engine with top torque figures that will be slow as hell. Not its definition, but HP shows how quickly an engine will change RPM under load.

http://vettenet.org/torquehp.html
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      02-19-2006, 03:10 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxpaintmepunkxx
Have you ever owned a car with a shitload of torque but crappy HP?

So hey, yeah, I guess torque doesn't cut it on it's own either.

Personally, I'd prefer 270-290hp and 310-320 lb-ft of torque.
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      02-19-2006, 03:11 PM   #65
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mapezzul, great info. Wish you would have put paragraphs in to make it easier to read.
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      02-19-2006, 04:18 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor
Turbo (x2) is a stupid stupid idea for only 300HP. Even Audi abandonned it. They just had to throw in the "old tech" M3 engine and they would got... 333HP. In the end, these double-turbo engines takes as much fuel as larger engines and they would have been better with a larger displacement at the beginning. I owned 2 turbo cars. Harder to resell at high mileage, too.

Crazy move from BMW.

I do not say this lightly, but there are some very ignorant people here on these boards.


Let me explain,

BMW is a premiere engine building in the world. The N54 has been in development for 3 years, it's a completely new design that offers a brand new fuel delivery and an impressive Forced Induction system.

A 3.0 liter I-6 with approx 4psi of boost putting out 306hp and 296 ft/lbs or torque is excellent. The engine is very light, it more fuel efficient than the previous engine and maintains it's smooth idle and silky smooth acceleration characteristics.

Turbo's have many benifits with very few downfalls. The BMW's design of Bi-Turbo allows for lag free spool-up of the turbos and 296ft/lbs of torque at 1500 - 5800rpms ...!!



That means the 335ci will have more TORQUE just above idle than you have max in the 2005 M3 ..!



BMW builds MACHINES, not cars... everything works together, completly and it's fully refined. Thus, they will couple this new engine (N54) with a properly designed tranny.

How someone cannot dicern the differences between this and the Lexus V6 is beyond me. The N54 is superior in every aspect.

My guess is that it's alot lighter, more fuel efficient. Has more HP and Torque, better reponse and way smoother. We will have to wait, but the lexus offers nothing in terms of technology.

My 1999 Covette coupe had 345 horsepower from a V8. The BMW 335 will have 306 horsepower and weigh about the same. It will roughly have about the same amount of torque from 1500-4000rpms ...! After that the Inline-6 can't keep up with the big V8's Cubic inches.

NOW... BMW is making this car for the street and it is not a SPORTS car. Thus they are only config the engine with a small amount of boost. I highly doubt BMW is dumb and have no clue what they are doing as many in this thread has suggested. There will undoubtedly be overhead built into this engine.

Increase in boost (possibly software) = increase in HP/tq.

But BMW does not need more than 310hp for the normal 3 series (non M) they are FAST as it is. This car will be a demon !!
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